Who Else Saw The Plates Besides Smith?

[Swan]

I try to be respectful of other religions but the above statements show the whole story of the plates to be stretch of the imagination. **The entire Mormon faith is based on faith alone. If you don’t believe something in LDS you are made to feel that the problem lies with you because of your lack of faith. ** So in the very beginning that’s how it was, with Joseph Smith claiming that he had golden plates but would not remove the cloth that was coverning them. Or they saw them in a vision. Then we have the quote from Dianaiad,

The thing is, ALL religions are based on faith. Someone asked in an earlier post why God hadn’t made the golden tablets available for everyone to see - as an agnostic, I ask similar questions about the NT - for example, we don’t have originals of some of the books - couldn’t God have arranged that? Couldn’t God have made things a little clearer? etc., etc., …

And if one - such as myself - asks uncomfortable questions or isn’t satisfied with pat answers, then the problem is mine - as in the second point mentioned in the above quote.

My point? Reveled religions are all the same in that they are based on faith. You either have it or you don’t. If you do, then you can accept the “holy” revelations of the various folks who wrote the “revealed” scriptures and that is good enough. In light of your faith, it makes sense to you. Without faith you tend to question everything and may end up like me, an agnostic, to whom the validity of the OT and NT are extremely questionable. But, of course, that’s one thing the Mormons and non-Mormons will agree on - that I’m wrong on those counts.

 

[dianaiad]

You can continue to spout your opinion of what I should or should not do until your hands cramp. I have explained the difference for anyone here to understand or not. It is only your opinion that a double standard exists. I am free to have one standard for modern history, another for ancient history and a third for contemporary news.

You are correct. You are quite free to have as many standards as you like.

Just as I am free to point out the illogic of using them.

 

[dianaiad]

Nor did He take 10% off them…

Cheap shot, I know!

…well…

Our missionaries don’t have to pay tithing, y’know…though some do.

As to Our Lord? I guess you missed what He had to say to the Pharisees about tithing?

Something about them paying tithing in 'mint and anise" and other stuff, and missing the ‘weightier’ matters of the law? He castigated them for paying the tithing and ignoring the poor and suffering.

what was His solution to them? Why…to take care of those ‘weightier matters,’ and NOT TO LEAVE THE OTHER [tithing] UNDONE.

 

[ricko]

Swan

First my post stated “faith alone” just to make that clear. Yes, you might say all religions are based on faith but I would not say faith alone except in the case of Mormons and JWs. The Catholic Church is not based on faith alone as there are many historical documents in the Vatican and elsewhere. It is, in fact dangerous to base a religion on “faith alone” as we have seen in the past. Anything can be taught by anyone to a group of people that has no basis except in faith that can be misleading or an outright lie. Without some tangible facts or evidence of some sort to help support the faith you can easily be mislead. To point out some extremes we have the group in Waco, Heavens Gate, and Jim Jones. These people in each case believed, in each case they had faith and in each case they were all lied to and are all dead as a result.

 

[ricko]

The LDS try to use the “Anthon Transcript” as proof of the writings on the gold plates. Joseph Smith copied some of the writing from the alledged plates and they were brought to a professor, the link is to the letter that the professor wrote:

utlm.org/onlineresources/anthonletter.htm

The whole story about my having pronounced the Mormonite inscription to be “reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics” is perfectly false.
Upon examining the paper in question, I soon came to the conclusion that it was all a trick, perhaps a hoax.

 

[ricko]

Here is a letter showing the first settlers bringing honey bees over for the crops as there were none in America:
The only evidence we have of the initial importation of honey bees to North America is a letter written December 5, 1621 by the Council of the Virginia Company in London and addressed to the Governor and Council in Virginia, “Wee haue by this Shipp and the Discouerie sent you diurs [divers] sortes of seedes, and fruit trees, as also Pidgeons, Connies, Peacockes Maistiues [Mastiffs], and Beehives, as you shall by the invoice pceiue [perceive]; the preservation & encrease whereof we respond vnto you…” (Goodwin 1956; Kingsbury 1906:532). The Discovery (60 tons, Thomas Jones, captain, and twenty persons) left England November 1621 and arrived in Virginia March 1622 (Langford Ship Information; Brown 1898:469-470).

The creation of the United States can be found in the footsteps of the honey bee (Apis mellifera L.). Brought to the east coast of North America in 1622 it would be 231 years before the honey bee reached the west coast. Disease, hostile competitors, harsh climates, and geographical barriers blocked the advance of honey bee and human alike.

orsba.org/htdocs/download/Honey%20Bees%20Across%20America.html

 

[MelanieAnne]

Rick, you’re doing a great service providing these factual articles. However, let me warn you, as a general rule Mormons are not swayed by scientific evidence if it is contrary to what they believe the Holy Spirit has impressed on them.

 

[dianaiad]

Swan

First my post stated “faith alone” just to make that clear. Yes, you might say all religions are based on faith but I would not say faith alone except in the case of Mormons and JWs.

You are claiming that Mormons are sola fideans?

Say what?
ricko;4730469:

The Catholic Church is not based on faith alone as there are many historical documents in the Vatican and elsewhere. It is, in fact dangerous to base a religion on “faith alone” as we have seen in the past. Anything can be taught by anyone to a group of people that has no basis except in faith that can be misleading or an outright lie. Without some tangible facts or evidence of some sort to help support the faith you can easily be mislead. To point out some extremes we have the group in Waco, Heavens Gate, and Jim Jones. These people in each case believed, in each case they had faith and in each case they were all lied to and are all dead as a result.

 

[ricko]

Melanie, yea, I know. I figured if I could just get them to use some common sense that some of those facts might creep in.

Dianaiad, no you misunderstand. I’m not talking about THAT kind of faith. I’m talking about the type of faith that makes one believe something that flies in the face of reason, truth and facts.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Melanie, yea, I know. I figured if I could just get them to use some common sense that some of those facts might creep in.

Dianaiad, no you misunderstand. I’m not talking about THAT kind of faith. I’m talking about the type of faith that makes one believe something that flies in the face of reason, truth and facts.

Rick, some Mormons are very highly educated, brilliant in their chosen fields. But don’t ask to see evidence of that when it comes to tangling with the Book of Mormon and some of the other stories upon which their faith rests.

I have had Mormons tell me, and these were intelligent articulate Mormons, right here on this forum, that were you to be able to prove the entire business of the Book of Mormon to be unequivocally false, they would still believe because the Holy Spirit has confirmed it in their hearts. It’s a childlike unconditional trust and facts and reason have no chance against it.

 

[ricko]

I understand. That is why I have been looking for one article I read about using faith and reason. It says something like God does want us to have faith and believe but he doesn’t expect us to believe in things that are unreasonable. It’s hard to get through that “faith” thing for sure. The JWs are just as hardheaded also. I will not give up though.

 

[MelanieAnne]

I understand. That is why I have been looking for one article I read about using faith and reason. It says something like God does want us to have faith and believe but he doesn’t expect us to believe in things that are unreasonable. It’s hard to get through that “faith” thing for sure. The JWs are just as hardheaded also. I will not give up though.

Rick, you’re a better man than I!

 

[ricko]

Faith and reason are not the same, but Catholics believe that both our faith and our ability to reason are gifts from God. Both faith and reason are given to us so that we can know the truth about reality. Since truth cannot contradict truth, so also faith cannot contradict reason and vice versa. The Holy Father, in his encyclical Fides et Ratio (Faith and Reason), calls faith and reason two wings on which the human spirit rises to God. Far from being based on feeling and sentiment, faith is reasonable and sure.

 

[ricko]

Believing the world will end in 2012 takes a certain amount of blind faith. Reason and evidence will not lead you to a belief in reincarnation. There was an element of faith to all of these things that defined my world view. By definition, faith is belief without reason or evidence. Sometimes faith is belief when there’s reason and evidence to the contrary. I soon realized that faith is dangerous. Belief without evidence is what drove the 9/11 hijackers to believe they would go to heaven for killing thousands of innocents. Belief without evidence is, plain and simple, superstition. Faith did not send a man to the moon. Intense calculations, empirical data, tests and observations did. In the 21st century, as doctors cure diseases we didn’t even know about 100 years ago, society’s reverence for faith is disgusting. Belief without evidence is not something that deserves respect. Belief without evidence is not a virtue. Faith is misleading, ineffective and dangerous.
From Catholic Forums

 

[BOMC]

You’re resisting the Good News of Jesus when you argue against TBOM.

Why are you two resisting the words of Jesus?

I await your answers.

.

 

[ricko]

What is faith? Let’s start our answer to this seemingly simple question, by first discussing what faith isn’t. Faith is not believing in things without evidence or reason. Faith is not definitionally irrational, ignoring reason “just because”.

Faith isn’t the enemy of reason — it’s the foundation of reason. Without it, reason falls. Reason without faith is impossible.

When people stop reasoning, their conclusions are nearly random. If man does not trust reason, then what /does/ he trust? He can’t just “trust God”, because he has to know which God to trust. The Christian God is but one of many in a sea of Gods — why trust Christ instead of Thor?

If one’s faith is worth having, then it must be founded upon reason. Faith without reason isn’t just wrong — it’s absurdly stupid. It takes one of life’s most important concepts, our belief in a deity, and throws it like a pair of die, hoping to be right, but never completely knowing. This faith is absurd, and should never exist.

If one is to believe anything worth believing, then the belief must have reasons for its validity. This is principle of cause and effect applied to our theory of belief. Faith without reason is ignorance.

In the end, everyone has faith. But the only good faith is the reasoned faith. Faith without reason is ignorance. But reason without faith is impossible. The two should not contradict, but make each other possible, and lead to the truth.

rationalchristianity.org/?p=23

Very good advice. With this in mind I ask our Mormon friends.

1. Is it reasonable to believe that Christ abandoned his Church for 1800 years when he promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against it and He would be with it till the end of the world?
2. Is it reasonable to believe that many cities built of cement and housing millions upon millions would disappear without any evidence of their existence?
3. Is it reasonable to believe that one man would be entrusted with the resurrection of the True Church through golden plates of which their existence has not been proven and which was “shown” to a few others covered with a cloth?
4. Is it reasonable to believe that these same plates cannot be shown as proof because an angel took them? How can that be reasonable when we have many documents of antiquity such as the Dead Sea Scrolls that are still here for all to see?
5. Is it reasonable to believe that the BOM is true when science, archaeology and several scientific institutions have stated that many things in it are not true?

 

[ricko]

You’re resisting the Good News of Jesus when you argue against TBOM.

Why are you two resisting the words of Jesus?

I await your answers.

.

No one is resisting the words of Jesus friend. If you are referring to the BOM as the words of Jesus, well no, some of it is just a copy of the KJV. The rest is pure fiction. The world has no need for such a book as the world has the original true bible.

 

[dianaiad]

Melanie, yea, I know. I figured if I could just get them to use some common sense that some of those facts might creep in.

Dianaiad, no you misunderstand. I’m not talking about THAT kind of faith. I’m talking about the type of faith that makes one believe something that flies in the face of reason, truth and facts.

Actually, most religious faith does that. After all, what sort of ‘reason, truth and fact’ supports the parting of the Red Sea, the raising of Lazarus, being cured of snakebite by looking at the figure of a snake on a staff, and bringing down the walls of a city by marching around it?

Religious belief/faith is confirmed by evidence other than empirical fact…and those who believe in the miracles of the bible cannot, without being hypocritical, tell a Mormon that such things cannot happen.

 

[BOMC]

What is faith…

It is a balancing act.

I ask our Mormon friends.

1. Is it reasonable to believe that Christ abandoned his Church for 1800 years when he promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against it and He would be with it till the end of the world?

That is a non sequitur. You must define the word “church” first. When that is done, you’ll see that your reasoning has no basis.

1. Is it reasonable to believe that many cities built of cement and housing millions upon millions would disappear without any evidence of their existence?

Wrong. The most common form of habitation were tents and wooden structures.

Cement, if not protected from the elements, quickly erodes. Look at the sidewalk in front of your house.

1. Is it reasonable to believe that one man would be entrusted with the resurrection of the True Church through golden plates of which their existence has not been proven and which was “shown” to a few others covered with a cloth?

Same as answer number one.

Joseph was not commanded to start a church, nor did he use The Book of Mormon (TBOM) as its basis, but instead, he contradicted it at every turn - which is proof that neither he nor Rigdon wrote it.

Why is his view of the Godhead not in it? Or eternal marriage? Or baptizing eight year olds? Or confirmations? Or temple work? Or High Priests? The priesthood? Etc.

1. Is it reasonable to believe that these same plates cannot be shown as proof because an angel took them? How can that be reasonable when we have many documents of antiquity such as the Dead Sea Scrolls that are still here for all to see?

A test of faith of course. Jesus said it was a wicked and adulterous generation that needed a sign.

1. Is it reasonable to believe that the BOM is true when science, archaeology and several scientific institutions have stated that many things in it are not true?

How can that be, when they don’t know where the events took place? The jury will be locked until they come to a concensus where the events took place.

Till then, use The Book for the reason IT SAYS it was brought forth.

.

 

[BOMC]

No one is resisting the words of Jesus friend. If you are referring to the BOM as the words of Jesus, well no, some of it is just a copy of the KJV. The rest is pure fiction. The world has no need for such a book as the world has the original true bible.

Excuse me, don’t flatter yourself. TBOM has more references to Jesus than the NT. It also refers to the Savior by more names than the NT.

You haven’t read anything. Or if you did, your eyes were clearly shut.

.