Who exactly was crucified?

[meltzerboy]

I’m not sure. I’m hoping to find out someday. But I’ll do my best to answer some of your questions. In Christianity, God does not become human. A human is assumed into the divine. In truth, God never really changes. However, God works in union with the human person. It is once again (almost exactly) like the way the body and soul work together. My body has not become my soul. My soul does not become my body. They work together and are two natures of one person . With Christ, the human and divine meet. The human is not the divine but the divine is not human. It is together though that they create the person of Christ. The divine is not Jesus Christ. The human is not Jesus Christ. Only together are they truly Jesus Christ. However, Jesus Christ is both human and divine just as we are spiritual and material. Now, what Christ does, both do. When you eat, your soul moves to eat and your body does the eating. Both choose to eat. Both experience the eating but in different ways. The body digests it and receives the nutrition, the soul through the body gets to experience taste. Similarly, the body gets to experience spiritual things through the soul. In a sense, the soul will feel thoughts or think something and the body will speak it. The body can also create feelings in response to thoughts and the emotions of the soul. One example is crying. So, both get to experience some of the other. This is similar to Christ.

However, don’t take everything from me as it is called a mystery and isn’t going to be completely understood by us. I could very well be misinterpreting “the evidence” or I could be speaking against the church. Hopefully, though, you will one day hear of it from the King himself.

On to the next topic.The human nature of Christ could have at any point chosen to sin. If it were any other way, then why would Satan have tried to tempt Christ in the desert? However, Christ was obedient to God the Father at all points (both the human and the divine). It was probably a little easier on Christ because of his absence of original sin and the fact that he is God. So, could he realistically have sinned. Maybe, I would say not. However, there was temptation. That part would have been real to Christ, probably even more so. No sinner truly knows temptation. You can only know temptation if you endure it. A sinless man will endure temptation for much longer than sinner.

Hope this clarifies some things. I always do love this topic, as it is confusing, mysterious, and opens my eyes further to the beauty of the Lord. So, please if you have more questions, keep them coming.

Thanks, God bless

A. Heuchler

Thanks for your interesting explanation. It’s a lot to digest, spiritually speaking, but I do appreciate it.

 

[jcrichton]

I think Jesus was composed of The Son of God, who arose from his bosom, Michael the archangel and David’s descendent, the human. What do you think? Do you think that only the human was crucified and not the rest and that is why Jesus said on the cross, “why Father have you abandoned me?”

…are you attempting to introduce Jesus as not God but a god or an exalted angel?

Michael or the Archangel St. Michael is nothing more and nothing less than an angel, a spritual being Created by Yahweh God to Serve Him… as a servant of God, St. Michael is ordered by God to prostrate himself (along with all the angels) at Jesus’ feet (Hebrews 1:1-14).

…as for the Crucifixion… since there was never a time when Jesus was not God… the cross was the implementation where He would offer His human body to God the Father as expiation for our sins (Isaiah’s Suffering Servant Chapters 52 and 53); the theological question is how long did Jesus need to take on the sin of the world? …and since no sin exists in God, was Jesus desperate plead (why have you forsaken Me) a reflection of the pain that that instant, however minute it would have been, when the Father had to allow Jesus to suffer for humanity’s sins all on His own (compare with: “I am never alone, the Father is always with Me.” (St. John 16:32; 8:16, 29) would cause Him?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Bernadette173]

I must have got it from somewhere I am not sure, but let me focus your attention to another point: How can Jesus the son of God be defeated by Satan and crucified? He is omnipotent. He should single hadedly defeat any number of demons? Or is it he knowingly and willingly allowed satan to crucify him?

The crucifixtion of Jesus was that God through the Incarnation, became flesh, to live, grow and be crucified to pay a ransom for the sins of all mankind for as long as time prevails, to give us ALL pardon of our most grievous sins, so that we as God’s creation, may be together with Him in Heaven on Judgement Day. God knew He had to do this for us and He chose to do it for us because God loves us, We are His creation and He wants us to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him to the best of our ability. I hope I have explained this thoroughly.

God Bless,

 

[jcrichton]

According to Catholicism (and Christianity in general), I believe the two natures of Jesus are not separate but they are distinct Persons in terms of their functions, as you, Lily, have different functions as a daughter and as an aunt. Is that correct? So the function of Jesus, G-d the Son, was to redeem humanity as its Lord and Savior. Did G-d the Father therefore divest Himself of His divinity to become the suffering servant, the human Jesus, but not entirely, because He still remained G-d the Son?

…as Scriptures say, nothing is impossible to God… Jesus as the Lamb of God had to die (the perfect Sacrifice) to expiate our sins; the Father and the Son had never existed alone; in God there’s no sin; Christ, the Son of man, had to take on the sin of the world (Isaiah 52 and 53); now, the question is, did Jesus have to take on the sin of the world literally and if so, as brief a moment as that would have required, would the Son not have to be Separated from the Father?

…as for the gnostics… Scriptures state that the Father Resurrected Jesus, the Son; yet, Scriptures also state that the Son has been Given the Power to put down His Life and take it up again (Resurrect Himself); finally, Scriptures also state that the Father uses the Holy Spirit to Resurrect Jesus… it is difficult for the human mind to embrace such Revelations… that’s where Faith in the Word of God comes in: it happened in such fashion because it was God’s Will!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I wouldn’t agree with your last view because, as you said, it is gnostic. Jesus Christ who was God did suffer. Now it was probably only because of the humanity within him that he proclaimed that but in doing so, that means that the divine must have agreed. To look at it from our view, our souls do not feel pain, but our bodies can. Our bodies then influence us and lead us to cry out in a similar fashion.

That is why Christ is amazing to us. God ate, God ran, God rested, God was tempted, God was scourged, God died, and God rose again. Before God knew all there was to know about us. Now God has experienced it all. This is the true miracle; all others pale in comparison.

However, (back to the topic of Christ doubting on the cross) a lot of this is speculation as the Catholic church hasn’t really had any teachings in detail on this particular subject (that I know of).

…two points:

a) I cuncur with you, the Church has not set any particular dogma on this issu–we can all reach without even coming near off-off-off-off Broadway!

b) Jesus ran? …the Olympics?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I must have got it from somewhere I am not sure, but let me focus your attention to another point: How can Jesus the son of God be defeated by Satan and crucified? He is omnipotent. He should single hadedly defeat any number of demons? Or is it he knowingly and willingly allowed satan to crucify him?

…you must have seen the wrong video!

…go ahead and skip to Apocalypse, the final Chapter!

…the Incarnate Word did not come to demonstrate that He is the Omnipotent and Mighty God; He came to rescue us from sin; as such, the Lamb of God, Jesus came to surrender His Life for us (Isaiah 52-53)… this could not have happened if He did not put aside His Divinity (Colossians 1:13-22; Philippians 2:5-11). Satan was an angel so he does possess some powers that are beyond ours… but he is not Divine… if you really want to know about Jesus’ Powers just read every encounter with demons… He Commands them and they obey…

…check this passage:

1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[a] by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”
4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’**”

5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[c]”

7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[d]”

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[e]”

11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him. (St. Mathew 4:1-11)**

…noticed the devil’s actions and words after Jesus’ Command?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[meltzerboy]

…as Scriptures say, nothing is impossible to God… Jesus as the Lamb of God had to die (the perfect Sacrifice) to expiate our sins; the Father and the Son had never existed alone; in God there’s no sin; Christ, the Son of man, had to take on the sin of the world (Isaiah 52 and 53); now, the question is, did Jesus have to take on the sin of the world literally and if so, as brief a moment as that would have required, would the Son not have to be Separated from the Father?

…as for the gnostics… Scriptures state that the Father Resurrected Jesus, the Son; yet, Scriptures also state that the Son has been Given the Power to put down His Life and take it up again (Resurrect Himself); finally, Scriptures also state that the Father uses the Holy Spirit to Resurrect Jesus… it is difficult for the human mind to embrace such Revelations… that’s where Faith in the Word of God comes in: it happened in such fashion because it was God’s Will!

Maran atha!

Angel

Is it really true that nothing is impossible to G-d? I thought that G-d cannot be or act contrary to His own nature.

 

[Bezant]

Interesting discussion, everyone.

 

[jcrichton]

Can u quote a verse for my reference which says that? And even if God sacrificed him how did it materialize in our world? Mere men standing before God and sacrificing him… I don’t get it. Please elaborate.

I think that you have to do a lot of slow reading to do… as God, Jesus is Eternal; the Eternal Word took on a human body in order to fulfill the rescue and restoration of man’s fall (Adam and Eve); sin could not be cleansed through animal sacrifice; only the Perfect Sacrifice would make it right again (Hebrews 4:1 through 12:29).

…as for men sacrificing God, here’s Jesus’ rendering of the incomprehensible:

Jesus said, 'Father, forgive them; they do not know what they are doing. (St. Luke 23:34a)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I guess this is the essential difference between Christianity and Judaism, for the notion of G-d’s becoming human in form and behavior is totally alien to the nature of G-d according to Jewish belief. Doesn’t Christianity stop short of Jesus’ becoming completely human as well, since it believes Jesus, as a human, is still sinless, although tempted? Is this because Jesus is the recapitulation of humanity (i.e. Adam) BEFORE original sin, or is it due to Jesus’ dual nature, in which the divine Jesus prevents the human Jesus from falling victim to sin?

…can you expand on this… since we have several passages in the Old Testament where God acutally takes on the human likeness and engages people (Abraham and Sarah; Abraham alone; Jacob)?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[meltzerboy]

…can you expand on this… since we have several passages in the Old Testament where God acutally takes on the human likeness and engages people (Abraham and Sarah; Abraham alone; Jacob)?

Maran atha!

Angel

This never happens in the Hebrew Bible according to Jewish interpretation. Angels, but not G-d in the flesh.

 

[jcrichton]

Is it really true that nothing is impossible to G-d? I thought that G-d cannot be or act contrary to His own nature.

I do not see where God has acted contrarty to His own nature… God existed as three from the very Beginning and in Christ He selected/Saved the world at that very Beginning… is His Way different than our human intellect can understand or accept? Yes! Does that mean that somehow God has embarked upon a contradictory path? No! …it only means that we do not have all the pieces or have not been able to put them together right!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

This never happens in the Hebrew Bible according to Jewish interpretation. Angels, but not G-d in the flesh.

…granted… interpretation makes for great margin of diversion… even when the text is taken appart miticulously… there’s always the problem of preconceived/biased mindset… there are usually no winners… and the argument could last longer than a solar storm…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[meltzerboy]

I do not see where God has acted contrarty to His own nature… God existed as three from the very Beginning and in Christ He selected/Saved the world at that very Beginning… is His Way different than our human intellect can understand or accept? Yes! Does that mean that somehow God has embarked upon a contradictory path? No! …it only means that we do not have all the pieces or have not been able to put them together right!

Maran atha!

Angel

I wasn’t referring to the Trinity; I meant G-d cannot be sinful, for example, or subject to error, because these traits would be contrary to His nature.

 

[LilyM]

Is it really true that nothing is impossible to G-d? I thought that G-d cannot be or act contrary to His own nature.

God chooses to be and act in a consistent way - perhaps this is too mild a way to put it. He is unchanged and unchanging. Even the ‘changes’ involved in the creation or the incarnation are not changes on God’s part, who has known all of human history from all eternity.

 

[LilyM]

I wasn’t referring to the Trinity; I meant G-d cannot be sinful, for example, or subject to error, because these traits would be contrary to His nature.

Jesus also wasn’t sinful nor subject to error. But nonetheless fully human. We don’t believe sin or error to be innate characteristics of humanity, but due to the deformity of human nature that occurred post the Fall.

 

[mercytruth]

I wasn’t referring to the Trinity; I meant G-d cannot be sinful, for example, or subject to error, because these traits would be contrary to His nature.

You are correct. G-d the Father can not be tempted with sin, nor become sin for us. G-d is holy. As James of the NT says,

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by G-d,” for G-d cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.

You are also correct in saying that G-d did not appear to the Patriarchs of the Tanakh.
Jesus, himself said, “No man has seen G-d at any time, the only-begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father he has declared him”.

You are correct in saying that angels appeared to the patriarchs in the Torah. We also have instances in the Torah where the early church fathers taught that there were "Christophanies’. That is, appearances of the pre-existent Messiah appearing to the patriarchs.

There is one instance, where the **sacred name **appeared to Lot, his wife, and two daughters. So, this is considered a definite ‘Christophany’.

And Lot said to them, “Oh, no, my lords. Behold, your servant has found favour in your sight, and you have shown me great kindness in saving my life. But I cannot escape to the hills, lest the disaster overtake me and I die. Behold, this city is near enough to flee to, and it is a little one. Let me escape there—is it not a little one?—and my life will be saved!” He said to him, “Behold, I grant you this favour also, that I will not overthrow the city of which you have spoken. Escape there quickly, for I can do nothing till you arrive there.” Therefore the name of the city was called Zoar.The sun had risen on the earth when Lot came to Zoar. Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulphur and fire from the LORD out of heaven. And he overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.

Here in Genesis 19:24 the sacred name was on earth with Lot, while the sacred name was in heaven. It appears then, that there are two beings that are called by the sacred name. Because Jesus said that no man has seen G-d at any time, Jesus must be referring to the sacred name who was in heaven, while he as the pre-existent Messiah was on earth with Lot, his wife and two daughters.

 

[Luvtosew]

Read the entire Psalm 22. You’ll see that Jesus was quoting scripture and that in a way was proclaiming his “victory song”.

Yes and the Jews that were there knew what he was referencing…

 

[DCNBILL]

I wasn’t referring to the Trinity; I meant G-d cannot be sinful, for example, or subject to error, because these traits would be contrary to His nature.

This is correct. Logically a thing cannot “be” and “not be” at the same time. God is as God is, the speculation that He could/would choose to be otherwise is simply a human construct that has no actual bearing on the nature of God.

 

[LilyM]

Yes and the Jews that were there knew what he was referencing…

So why did they think He was calling on Elijah if they all knew what His words meant?