Who "Gets it", and by how much?

[Tietjen]

Tietjen, you claim that you’re Catholic.

Though saying it that way sounds like I might not really believe you, no?

It doesn’t matter what you believe about me.

Yes, definitely they will fare a lot better, and I hope to convince you.

Let’s take Islam instead as there are a lot more Muslims than Bahá’í. From what you said, you rated Islam the same as Satanism not because you believe it’s intrinsically evil but because you think God doesn’t smile on Muslims for only venerating Jesus as a prophet (I think the Bahá’í do the same).

A Muslim could then rate Catholicism the same as Satanism because of something she believes and you don’t. You say God doesn’t smile on her, she says God doesn’t smile on you, voices get raised and pretty soon you may both forget we’re all one people before God - these things happen.

No. The Muslim, the Baha’i, The Catholic and even the Satanist are all human beings created by God. Each is loved by God. That, however, is not what this topic is about. The question asked was, “Who Gets it and by how much?” Again, “it” isn’t defined by the OP in the original post so “it” is left up to each individual to determine. I determined that “it” means truth in this circumstance. In other words, of the denominations and religions listed, which recognizes truths as it relates to God. Of course as a Christian I see the most important truth to be the divinity of Christ. The religions that cannot grasp that concept, certainly won’t be able to grasp the real presence, the concept of salvation (as paid for on the cross), etc. I am not suggesting that Baha’i doesn’t contain any truths. Even Satanists recognize certain truths… that God exists, that Satan exists, etc. No group is completely without truths. However, as a Christian, I recognize that some truths rank more important to recognize than others. If those “more important” truths aren’t recognized (or Got) by these other religions, should we as Christians pretend that they actually do “get IT” and go off singing Kumbaya?

I believe Almighty God looks beyond all of that to see what is really on our hearts, and all of the religions on the list “get it” in their different ways.

Would you please explain “get it” in the above statement. I’ll agree that God knows our hearts; but I’d appreciate a greater explanation of the “get it” phrase… specifically the “it” part.

You’re obviously going to say Catholicism is closest to the truth, that’s to be expected…

Why would you think that? At the beginning of your reply, you implied that you might not believe that I am Catholic… Now it’s obvious to you that I am going to say Catholicism is the closet to the truth? Psst… … It is.

… but it’s OK to accept that the other religions are not far behind. Anyway, that’s what the Church seems to teach - vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

Did you read Nostra Aetate prior to pasting the link? Is this declaration one which supports your theory that Baha’i “Gets It?” ~OR~ is this declaration one which calls on Catholics to remember that we are all God’s children and should treat one another with respect and kindness?
Nostra Aetate:

**The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is **true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she (the Church) proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.

The above quote doesn’t support your position of “…all of the religions on the list get it in their different ways” if “IT” is understood to be Truth.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I don’t know much about Bahai and what they mean by “God” and “one”, but I am very surprised to see so many people giving Islam the same rating as Buddhism. Islam has some extremely grave deficiencies of course, but it’s far closer to Christianity than Buddhism is. I’m not sure Buddhism even belongs on the 1-10 range. Perhaps it could be given a 0.

 

[Izdaari]

I don’t know much about Bahai and what they mean by “God” and “one”, but I am very surprised to see so many people giving Islam the same rating as Buddhism. Islam has some extremely grave deficiencies of course, but it’s far closer to Christianity than Buddhism is. I’m not sure Buddhism even belongs on the 1-10 range. Perhaps it could be given a 0.

I have found one particular form of Buddhism, Zen, to have many very useful insights that are not incompatible with Christianity. I admit to not being very familiar with most other forms of Buddhism, so I won’t comment on those others.

OTOH, though Islam is Abrahamic and theoretically follows the same God (though some dispute that, and I’m not sure who’s right), it does have some extremely grave deficiencies that lead me to rate it even lower than Buddhism.

 

[inocente]

It doesn’t matter what you believe about me.

Rats, I guess I was overdoing being subtle . I was trying to gently hint that you saying “Inocente, you claim that you’re Baptist” implied you didn’t really believe I’m a Baptist, because if you did you’d have simply said “inocente, you’re a Baptist”. Tietjen, you’re a Catholic.

However, as a Christian, I recognize that some truths rank more important to recognize than others. If those “more important” truths aren’t recognized (or Got) by these other religions, should we as Christians pretend that they actually do “get IT” and go off singing Kumbaya?

Let’s say you’re talking to a Hindu and a Muslim while God looks on. Each of you says the other two don’t “get it” because they don’t share your religion, so each of you has two votes against you, you’re each outvoted. I believe God concludes none of you “get it” - if instead of picking over your differences you worked together to find what you have in common, looking beyond interpretations to find the truths your religions share, then God will smile because now you all “get it”.

Would you please explain “get it” in the above statement. I’ll agree that God knows our hearts; but I’d appreciate a greater explanation of the “get it” phrase… specifically the “it” part.

*On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.” – Luke 10:25-28 NIV*

Jesus says the expert is right, he will inherit eternal life if he loves God and his neighbor. Jesus doesn’t say Catholics have 10 eternal life air-mile points, Jews have 3 and Hindus only 1 . Nor does He say that someone whose birth religion happens to be Catholic but who doesn’t really love God and her neighbor has anything like the same chance of getting to heaven as one who really loves. So if Jesus, who you and I believe is God, doesn’t distinguish whether we’re male or female, black or white, Bahá’í or Catholic, I’m saying that might just tell us something important about what it is to “get it”.

Did you read Nostra Aetate prior to pasting the link? Is this declaration one which supports your theory that Baha’i “Gets It?” ~OR~ is this declaration one which calls on Catholics to remember that we are all God’s children and should treat one another with respect and kindness?

You’re the expert on other religions here, obviously you’ve taken the time to read their holy books, talk to adherents and attend their prayers to be able to put them into a hit parade . I must admit failing to do anything like that amount of research when I changed from being an atheist.

But hang on, you’ll need to convince me that in 1965 the Pope had to promulgate a 1,600 word statement to remind Catholics to treat others with respect and kindness . Instead it may just be that Nostra Aetate was to show other religions that Catholicism respects them, and in particular to make a fresh start with Judaism. Have a google on it, see what you think.

While you’re at it, have a look at the following. Lutheran churches and a Pontifical council agreeing in 1999 they share a “common understanding of our justification by God’s grace through faith in Christ." After centuries they finally might “get it”.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Gets IT!

Define IT. What is the “IT” that Catholisism gets and Satanism doesn’t?

 

[Tietjen]

Rats, I guess I was overdoing being subtle . I was trying to gently hint that you saying “Inocente, you claim that you’re Baptist” implied you didn’t really believe I’m a Baptist, because if you did you’d have simply said “inocente, you’re a Baptist”. Tietjen, you’re a Catholic.

I was simply stating what you had proclaimed in your profile… that you were Baptist. If you felt that I was calling into question your faith, I apologize. I have no personal knowledge of your beliefs but for the statements that you make and I have no reason to doubt that what you are saying is true. Again, I apologize if I was misunderstood.

Let’s say you’re talking to a Hindu and a Muslim while God looks on. Each of you says the other two don’t “get it” because they don’t share your religion, so each of you has two votes against you, you’re each outvoted. I believe God concludes none of you “get it”…

You might be correct if either man were the judge or if God counted the votes of each of the three and decided what truth was based on how many votes were cast against each. You say that you believe that “God concludes none of you get it.” How do you come to that conclusion? It may be true, but I’m curious as to the method you use to conclude this. Is it because each of the three have two votes against them and therefore God says they must all be equally right/wrong? Does God decide what is true based a “majority rules” method and until man votes God is left without an opinion?

…if instead of picking over your differences you worked together to find what you have in common, looking beyond interpretations to find the truths your religions share, then God will smile because now you all “get it”.

Agreed, and as I said earlier, every religion contains at least some truth. Those truths can/should be looked at as common ground. However, that does not automatically place all religions on equal ground as to the degree of truth found within them. A Catholic and a Satanist will both agree that there is evil in the world. They share this truth; yet, they both can’t be said to “get it.” A Lutheran and a member of the Baha’i religion both believe that to love your neighbor is good, but again, one cannot say that they both “get it” on an equal level.

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

Nice… you appear to be attempting to counter by suggesting that I am attempting to decide who will and will not have eternal life. That is not the case. The subject of who “gets it” and to what degree is what is being discussed. God alone decides the destination of souls. Incidentally, did I give Catholics 10 “eternal life air-mile points?” Really?

Nor does He say that someone whose birth religion happens to be Catholic but who doesn’t really love God and her neighbor has anything like the same chance of getting to heaven as one who really loves.

Of course but AGAIN, we are speaking of religions & denominations and NOT of individuals… please focus. I think that both you and I will agree that not every individual who professes to be Christian will have eternal life. We are speaking of the institutions as a whole and the truths that they either accept or reject.

So if Jesus, who you and I believe is God, doesn’t distinguish whether we’re male or female, black or white, Bahá’í or Catholic, I’m saying that might just tell us something important about what it is to “get it”.

Actually, God does determine who is male or female, black or white. HOWEVER… the individual determines what he/she accepts or rejects as truth, and therefore either “gets it” or doesn’t.

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[Tietjen]

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You’re the expert on other religions here, obviously you’ve taken the time to read their holy books, talk to adherents and attend their prayers to be able to put them into a hit parade . I must admit failing to do anything like that amount of research when I changed from being an atheist.

Sarcasm isn’t becoming of you. If we are to continue this discussion, let’s try to debate the merits presented rather than use sarcasm shall we?

But hang on, you’ll need to convince me that in 1965 the Pope had to promulgate a 1,600 word statement to remind Catholics to treat others with respect and kindness . Instead it may just be that Nostra Aetate was to show other religions that Catholicism respects them, and in particular to make a fresh start with Judaism. Have a google on it, see what you think.

Of course it was. However, if you read it, you will see rather clearly that it does not raise the beliefs of other religions to a score of 10. It simply says that there are common grounds among the various religions and that the Church recognizes that there are shared truths. It does NOT say that because there are shared truths all the religions “get it” equally.

While you’re at it, have a look at the following. Lutheran churches and a Pontifical council agreeing in 1999 they share a “common understanding of our justification by God’s grace through faith in Christ." After centuries they finally might “get it”.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

Neither Catholics nor Lutherans retracted their positions on justification. The document that both signed clarified one aspect of justification that both sides could agree to, with the hope that more dialogue and agreements will follow in years to come. The process continues. Again, this supports my position that different religions and denominations can in fact share certain truths. The question that was posed in the original post was to what degree are these truths recognized within these religions and denominations. I stand by my ratings.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

I have found one particular form of Buddhism, Zen, to have many very useful insights that are not incompatible with Christianity. I admit to not being very familiar with most other forms of Buddhism, so I won’t comment on those others.

OTOH, though Islam is Abrahamic and theoretically follows the same God (though some dispute that, and I’m not sure who’s right), it does have some extremely grave deficiencies that lead me to rate it even lower than Buddhism.

As others have mentioned, the OP did not clarify what “it” was, leaving it to us to guess. My interpretation was what a person’s ultimate paradigm of reality is, which in Buddhism is basically nihilistic (at least as I’ve seen it interpreted by Westerners), hence “0”. Double meaning.

 

[Paxvobis]

Eastern Orthodox - 9
Mainline Protestantism (Anglican, Lutheran) - 8
“Bible Christians”, Non-Denominationals, Baptists, Evangelicals - 7
Mormons, Jehovahs Witnesses - 6
Judaism/Islam - 5
Buddhism - 3
New Age, Occult, Satanism - 0
And obviously, Atheism - 0

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Eastern Orthodox - 9
Mainline Protestantism (Anglican, Lutheran) - 8
“Bible Christians”, Non-Denominationals, Baptists, Evangelicals - 7
Mormons, Jehovahs Witnesses - 6
Judaism/Islam - 5
Buddhism - 3
New Age, Occult, Satanism - 0
And obviously, Atheism - 0

The OP established that Satanism is 1. Just sayin’.

 

[inocente]

Sarcasm isn’t becoming of you. If we are to continue this discussion, let’s try to debate the merits presented rather than use sarcasm shall we?

Apologies then, but. (I hate it too when people apologize then immediately take it away).

It’s only part sarcasm. Few of us know more than a sketch of other religions compared with our own, so I worry whether judging them is following the spirit of the golden rule.

Of course it was. However, if you read it, you will see rather clearly that it does not raise the beliefs of other religions to a score of 10. It simply says that there are common grounds among the various religions and that the Church recognizes that there are shared truths. It does NOT say that because there are shared truths all the religions “get it” equally.

I certainly wouldn’t expect a Pope to say all religions are the same, but if the document were to use the OP’s rating system, minimum score 1, I think it’s written in the spirit of Catholicism 10, other religions 9. Rating Buddhism as a 1 would leave no lower score for all those weird here-today-gone-tomorrow cults and so wouldn’t exactly be showing respect to Buddhism.

Think about it, as we’re talking about institutions rather than individuals, would you be happy for your scores to be in an official document on vatican.va signed off by Pope Benedict for other religions to see?

Incidentally you’ve twice worried that I didn’t read it, worry no more, the reason I linked it is because I read it first.

Again, this supports my position that different religions and denominations can in fact share certain truths. The question that was posed in the original post was to what degree are these truths recognized within these religions and denominations.

You may just be misremembering the content of the OP here. :

 

[inocente]

I was simply stating what you had proclaimed in your profile.

No biggy. I think both we did that one to death now.

You say that you believe that “God concludes none of you get it.” How do you come to that conclusion? It may be true, but I’m curious as to the method you use to conclude this.

We all have a tendency to be convinced that other religions are less true than our own, but I think arguing over which religion is most truthful can’t possibly come from God since it can end in division and war. By extension thinking of other religions in that way is a temptation which can lead us to sin.

Agreed, and as I said earlier, every religion contains at least some truth. Those truths can/should be looked at as common ground. However, that does not automatically place all religions on equal ground as to the degree of truth found within them.

Agreed that all long lasting religions contain truth. Where we differ, I think, is I say we “get it” via the truths held in common.

Nice… you appear to be attempting to counter by suggesting that I am attempting to decide who will and will not have eternal life. That is not the case. The subject of who “gets it” and to what degree is what is being discussed. God alone decides the destination of souls. Incidentally, did I give Catholics 10 “eternal life air-mile points?” Really?

I’m not trying to win debating points here Tietjen, the subject interests me for its own sake. 1 Cor 13:8-13. Where there is knowledge, it will pass away. … For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. It seems to me that no religion has cornered the market on truth or can see more than a reflection of God.

I’m suggesting that if to “get it” has any meaning at all then it must surely change our behavior, we will be more moral and/or more content and/or more “something”. So if you’re right and Buddhism only rates a 1, Buddhists should on average be a lot less moral/content/“something” than Catholics on average. But that doesn’t appear to be the case, in reality there is no big differential. Hence if to “get it” is in any way important it must be something that religions share.

Incidentally, no really, you didn’t give Catholics 10 points, they got them by definition in the OP. (this is just to keep the roll eyes smiley running)

Of course but AGAIN, we are speaking of religions & denominations and NOT of individuals… please focus. I think that both you and I will agree that not every individual who professes to be Christian will have eternal life. We are speaking of the institutions as a whole and the truths that they either accept or reject.

Yes but as I said above, if the truths which institutions accept hold the key to “getting it”, this should show up in the behavior of their adherents one way or another.

Actually, God does determine who is male or female, black or white. HOWEVER… the individual determines what he/she accepts or rejects as truth, and therefore either “gets it” or doesn’t.

Perhaps but it remains, importantly, that the scripture doesn’t say God distinguishes whether we’re male or female, black or white, Bahá’í or Catholic when judging us.

 

[inocente]

Sarcasm isn’t becoming of you. If we are to continue this discussion, let’s try to debate the merits presented rather than use sarcasm shall we?

Apologies then, but.

(I hate it too when people apologize then immediately take it away).

It’s only part sarcasm. Few of us know more than a sketch of other religions compared with our own, so we can’t know what they really mean to their adherents and I worry about the spirit of the golden rule.

Of course it was. However, if you read it, you will see rather clearly that it does not raise the beliefs of other religions to a score of 10. It simply says that there are common grounds among the various religions and that the Church recognizes that there are shared truths. It does NOT say that because there are shared truths all the religions “get it” equally.

I certainly wouldn’t expect a Pope to say all religions are the same, but if the document were to use the OP’s rating system, minimum score 1, I think it’s written in the spirit of Catholicism 10, other religions 9. Rating Buddhism as a 1 would leave no lower score for all those weird here-today-gone-tomorrow cults and so wouldn’t exactly be showing much respect to Buddhism.

Think about it, since we’re talking about institutions rather than individuals, would you be happy for your scores to be in an official document on vatican.va signed off by Pope Benedict?

Incidentally you twice worried that I didn’t read it, worry no more, the reason I linked it is because I read it first.

 

[Tomcmaj]

Define IT. What is the “IT” that Catholisism gets and Satanism doesn’t?

It seems to me that everyone understands what I meant!

 

[Dave_Noonan]

Catholic 7.5
Orthodox churches 7.5
Anglicanism/Episcopal 6.5
Baptist 3.5
Presbyterian 4
Evangelical 3.5
Mormonism 2
Lutheran 6
Methodist 5
Judaism 5
Islam 4.5
Hinduism 4
Buddhism 5
Bahai 5

 

[William_Pitts]

I don’t how to say this but this seems to be calling for us to judge various religious groups. Only God Himself knows the answer to this.

 

[Tomcmaj]

I don’t how to say this but this seems to be calling for us to judge various religious groups. Only God Himself knows the answer to this.

Very true.

I just thought it would be an interesting exercise!