Who Has Authority?

[skeptictank]

There are many Christians who say, just as you do, that they believe the message of salvation and that they rely on the Holy Spirit for their interpretation of the Bible, which they say tells them that it’s OK to perform abortions and commit sodomy. So they do these things and insist that they are “saved”. Is that OK with you? If not, why not?

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom 8:31 ¶ What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?

If they are not glorified, they were not justified, etc…

1Cr 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

1Cr 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

1Cr 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The point being…

Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

I’ve heard your above response many times. The fact that you are uncertain does not mean that you ought to be uncertain. In fact, the problem that comes through is that you yourself are uncertain, and I think that is sad, because it shows (in my eyes) that your dependence is upon the church, and not upon god, which is quite contrary to Christ’s message, even for his church.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

In Christ’s Love, Always

Skeptictank

 

[runandsew]

Because the bible did not insist on a hystorical church. The bible refers to all the local church not just one big organizational church based in Rome.

You are right that in the time of the Bible it wouldn’t have been a big organized church based in Rome, it would have been based out of Jerusalem that is why Paul and Barnabas traveled to Jerusalem to address the Apostles about the circumcision issue that was prevalent in many of the ‘local’ churches.
And as for organization, that would have developed over time, you wouldn’t expect the church in its infancy to look the same after it has had time to mature and grow.
I don’t look the same as I did as a baby, but I am still the same person.
And do you think that the Microsoft of today looks like it did when it was started in the garage of Bill Gates and Paul Allen, even though it is the same company.

 

[skeptictank]

I would just like to say that I believe that our brother “AllForHim” miss-spoke. It seems in his zealousness for correcting his bretheren and siteren, he has said something that we all know is, quite simpley, unbiblical. I’m sure that there are other avenues for us to be exploring, rather than is error, which is natural of all mankind.

In Christ’s Love,

Skeptictank

 

[Petergee]

**Quote:
There are many Christians who say, just as you do, that they believe the message of salvation and that they rely on the Holy Spirit for their interpretation of the Bible, which they say tells them that it’s OK to perform abortions and commit sodomy. So they do these things and insist that they are “saved”. Is that OK with you? If not, why not? **

If they are not glorified, they were not justified, etc…

The point being…

I’ve heard your above response many times. The fact that you are uncertain does not mean that you ought to be uncertain. In fact, the problem that comes through is that you yourself are uncertain, and I think that is sad, because it shows (in my eyes) that your dependence is upon the church, and not upon god, which is quite contrary to Christ’s message, even for his church.

In Christ’s Love, Always

Skeptictank

Maybe I’m dense, but I can’t see how your post answers the the questions I posed. No, I am not at all “uncertain” about whether abortion etc are OK because when in doubt I take it to the Church Christ founded for us, as He told us to. Yours and AFH’s only resource seems to be “it doesn’t fit in with my personal interpretation of the Bible, even though they say the same about my beliefs based on their personal interpretation of the Bible”.

 

[Petergee]

Hi,

I have actually never left a church because of doctrinal differences. But if I do disagree with what they are teaching I should go to the leaders and sit down and discuss why I believe what I do and vice versa and then we take it to the bible and which ever one of us is proven wrong by the Scriptures must then submit to what the Word of God says. That is how it should work, sadly you are right though people just leave,just like it is way to easy to get a divorce.

Can you honestly not even imagine a situation in which you and your pastor, after you have both spent every spare moment studying, praying to the Holy Spirit for discernment, and arguing with each other, honestly trying your hardest to see the other’s point of view, are not able to reconcile your contradictory interpretations of the Bible? Because that is how just about every new protestant denomination started. They all say, “we really didn’t want to leave our former denomination but we HAD to because no matter how hard we tried we couldn’t agree with them”.

 

[Petergee]

Quote:
**Quote:
Originally Posted by MariaG
So what does scripture mean when it warns us of false teachers that will come along as well as scripture that tells us to take it to the Church? **

I think you know the answer to that

**Quote:
What about the scripture that tells us the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth? Is is not necessary to know which Church this is either? No historical Church needed because why? **
Because the bible did not insist on a hystorical church. The bible refers to all the local church not just one big organizational church based in Rome.

If your Bible contains the word “local” in that verse it’s either a misprint or a faulty edition or you’re reading a word in which isn’t there. It says “the Church”. Singular, not plural.

And even if it did say “your local church”, then if your local neighbourhood is anything like mine, there are at least a dozen local churches - Catholic, Baptist, Anglican, Presbyterian, Quaker etc. Which one does the Bible mean? It certainly doesn’t say “the church of your choice, just pray to the Holy Spirit and He’ll tell you which church is right for you”. And how to resolve a dispute between someone who thinks the Baptist church is right for him and someone who thinks the Methodist church is right for her? Which church do they take their dispute to, to resolve it?

For 2000 years, the vast majority of Christians have understood “the local church” to mean the church under the authority of the Catholic Bishop of your city or area.

 

[skeptictank]

More simply put, if they are being directed by god, they would not be sinning as you described.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

I could point you to the catholics who partake of all the sacraments and go to mass every week, yet live in sin, and don’t actually believe what the Church teaches. Would that discredit the catholic church?

Not really.

The way I see it, you can’t prove that the church is what you claim it is, so you are pointing fingers and calling names. The church is the body of believers in christ, whether they be protestant, catholic, Jehovahs witnesses, etc…

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Here Peter lays out the essential doctrine of christianity. We are not saved in the church, but in christ. The church does not give the spirit, but it is of Jesus Christ. All who, according to peter “repent and be baptized… in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins” will recieve the holy spirit. Whoever recieves the holy spirit is the temple of god. Whoever is the temple of god is of the body of christ. The church is that body of christ. This is what the bible teaches, and this is what I believe.

Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Act 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Skeptictank

 

[Petergee]

**Quote:
Originally Posted by Petergee
So like so many others, when challenged why you believe what you do, your ultimate fallback position is moral and religious relativism. “It’s right for ME” but something totally contradictory is “right” for others. Logically impossible. Truth is truth for all. There is one Truth, one Way. Either you are wrong or the Catholics are wrong. We cannot both be “right”. **
Hi,

Sorry you feel that way. I am speaking spiritually. My relationship is between me and Christ as is everyone else’s. The truth is Jesus is the way the truth and the life. My truth starts in John 3. The only way to the Father is through Jesus. That is my truth and Im sure it is yours too. I have the truth as well.

It’s got nothing to do with how I “feel”. It’s simple logic. Truth cannot contradict Truth. To suggest otherwise is nonsensical.

It’s great that you recognise that Jesus is the one Way and the one Truth. Now all you need to do is to act on it, and to follow ALL His commandments. There is ONE Church, ONE faith, ONE baptism. Jesus certainly doesn’t seem to think that two people can have contradictory beliefs which are both “truth”.

 

[jmcrae]

More simply put, if they are being directed by god, they would not be sinning as you described.

They don’t think they’re sinning - they can’t find any prohibitions against abortion in the Bible, and when they discern the Greek, they find that the only prohibitions against homosexual behaviour are for heterosexuals - there is absolutely nothing in Scripture that prohibits a homosexually-oriented person (or a woman, as it turns out, since the word used refers to heterosexual men only, when taken literally) from doing that behaviour.

I could point you to the catholics who partake of all the sacraments and go to mass every week, yet live in sin, and don’t actually believe what the Church teaches. Would that discredit the catholic church?

Not really.

The reason is that the Church continues to teach what it teaches regardless of how people behave.

Protestant churches change their teachings to fit the behaviour of their people. So, if half the congregation is aborting and having homosexual affairs, suddenly these behaviours are no longer classified as sinful, according to the doctrines of that church.

The way I see it, you can’t prove that the church is what you claim it is, so you are pointing fingers and calling names. The church is the body of believers in christ, whether they be protestant, catholic, Jehovahs witnesses, etc…

If a person is a “believer” then he needs to have a set of beliefs, right? I cannot in good conscience consider a Jehovah’s Witness a “believer in Christ” since the “christ” that a JW believes in has so very little in common with the Christ of 2000 years of Christianity, beginning with the Apostles.

 

[Petergee]

More simply put, if they are being directed by god, they would not be sinning as you described.

I could point you to the catholics who partake of all the sacraments and go to mass every week, yet live in sin, and don’t actually believe what the Church teaches. Would that discredit the catholic church?

Not really.

Because the Catholic Church has an authority (Pope, bishops and priests) who can and do rule whether something is a sin or not.

The way I see it, you can’t prove that the church is what you claim it is, so you are pointing fingers and calling names. The church is the body of believers in christ, whether they be protestant, catholic, Jehovahs witnesses, etc…

When did I point fingers or call anyone names? In my suburb there is a protestant church whose pastor says that two men who “marry” each other and commit sexual acts with each other are grievous sinners. The pastor of another Protestant church says that two such men are loving each other as Jesus taught us through the Bible and that anyone who criticises them for it is himself a grievous sinner. ISTM it is the endless variety of protestant denominations who are pointing fingers and calling each other names.

Which of the protestant pastors is right? Your only answers all boil down to “I think that Jesus would say that X is right and Y is wrong based on my personal interpretaion of the Bible”.

 

[skeptictank]

If your Bible contains the word “local” in that verse it’s either a misprint or a faulty edition or you’re reading a word in which isn’t there. It says “the Church”. Singular, not plural.

So exactly what does the verse reffer to my friend?

 

[jmcrae]

So exactly what does the verse reffer to my friend?

The organization founded by Christ under the headship of Peter.

(What else could it be?)

 

[skeptictank]

Because the Catholic Church has an authority (Pope, bishops and priests) who can and do rule whether something is a sin or not.

Jhn 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

When did I point fingers or call anyone names?

Figure of speach my friend. I was reffering to this game of “my church is better because…” I’m not interested in the merits of your church except for the scriptural proof that it is what it says it is. I know there are good things about the church. There are a lot of good things about a lot of churches, yet if any of them claimed to be THE church of jesus christ, I would probably laugh at them and point out what the bible has to say about the "Church’ of Jesus Christ.

In my suburb there is a protestant church whose pastor says that two men who “marry” each other and commit sexual acts with each other are grievous sinners. The pastor of another Protestant church says that two such men are loving each other as Jesus taught us through the Bible and that anyone who criticises them for it is himself a grievous sinner. ISTM it is the endless variety of protestant denominations who are pointing fingers and calling each other names.

Which of the protestant pastors is right? Your only answers all boil down to “I think that Jesus would say that X is right and Y is wrong based on my personal interpretaion of the Bible”.

So what do your answers boil down to? The church says…

But why do I care what the church says? :confused

Here is what the word of god says.

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

The word of god is quite clear on its stance toward homosexuality.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 5:2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,

Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Have you tried talking with that pastor? I think you should recommend to him that he read more of his bible and less of his cosmo magazine.

Skeptictank

 

[skeptictank]

That might prove difficult if you don’t have a Bible to consult, which is the way it was for almost all individuals before the advent of the printing press. How on earth could that be God’s plan if people for one and a half millenia were incapable of carrying it out?

You might note that it was shortly after the invention of the printing press that very loyal catholics saw the churches claims for what they are.

False.

God has a way of making things work out.

Skeptictank

 

[skeptictank]

They don’t think they’re sinning - they can’t find any prohibitions against abortion in the Bible

Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb.

Psa 139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully [and] wonderfully made: marvellous [are] thy works; and [that] my soul knoweth right well.

Psa 139:15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, [and] curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

Psa 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all [my members] were written, [which] in continuance were fashioned, when [as yet there was] none of them.

Psa 22:9 But thou [art] he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope [when I was] upon my mother’s breasts.

Psa 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou [art] my God from my mother’s belly.
Treasury of Scripture KnowledgeConcordance and
Psa 22:11 Be not far from me; for trouble [is] near; for [there is] none to help.

Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Mar 10:9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

, and when they discern the Greek, they find that the only prohibitions against homosexual behaviour are for heterosexuals - there is absolutely nothing in Scripture that prohibits a homosexually-oriented person (or a woman, as it turns out, since the word used refers to heterosexual men only, when taken literally) from doing that behaviour.

Is there even a greek word that reffers to homosexual men or women? From what I know about greek culture, there was no distinction.

Read my post previous to this one. It seems pretty clear that homosexual “orientation” is the result of god giving people over to evil desires.

The reason is that the Church continues to teach what it teaches regardless of how people behave.

Protestant churches change their teachings to fit the behaviour of their people. So, if half the congregation is aborting and having homosexual affairs, suddenly these behaviours are no longer classified as sinful, according to the doctrines of that church.

Your problem here is that you are assuming that there must be a central authority from which all truth derives. I hold no such authority, so those churches can go on changing however they like. The church of christ is not an organization of men, but of the spirit.

If a person is a “believer” then he needs to have a set of beliefs, right? I cannot in good conscience consider a Jehovah’s Witness a “believer in Christ” since the “christ” that a JW believes in has so very little in common with the Christ of 2000 years of Christianity, beginning with the Apostles.

I’m wondering what you mean by that? Consider Peter’s words-

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

This is what peter preached as the necessary doctrine for salvation. I don’t see that lacking with the Jehovah’s witnesses.

Skeptictank

 

[Blue_Serenity]

It’s got nothing to do with how I “feel”. It’s simple logic. Truth cannot contradict Truth. To suggest otherwise is nonsensical.

Agreed! Jesus Himself says “I am the Way, the Truth . . .”. If you believe that, then you share the same Truth as us. There’s no contradiction there.

Petergee:

It’s great that you recognise that Jesus is the one Way and the one Truth. Now all you need to do is to act on it, and to follow ALL His commandments. There is ONE Church, ONE faith, ONE baptism. Jesus certainly doesn’t seem to think that two people can have contradictory beliefs which are both “truth”.

We DO act on it, each and every day, as being living witnesses to His Word. We don’t just “sit around” and wait to be saved. We have a mission to “spread the Good News for all to hear” and bring our fellow brothers and sisters closer to Christ.
The greatest commandment is “love your neighbor as yourself”. Jesus Himself said that.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

Can you honestly not even imagine a situation in which you and your pastor, after you have both spent every spare moment studying, praying to the Holy Spirit for discernment, and arguing with each other, honestly trying your hardest to see the other’s point of view, are not able to reconcile your contradictory interpretations of the Bible? Because that is how just about every new protestant denomination started. They all say, “we really didn’t want to leave our former denomination but we HAD to because no matter how hard we tried we couldn’t agree with them”.

Corruption within a church is VERY possible and by getting to know your minister and elders council, it not only assures you of who they are but also what they believe and teach.
The Bible warns of “false teachings” and it’s important to make sure that isn’t happening within your church.
Don’t you check to make sure your priest isn’t teaching false material or do you take it on faith that he’s teaching the Truth?

 

[Blue_Serenity]

Did I miss your response to the people who posted against the “important” things that you claim to be accurate #266?

Funny, most people think that if a person gives unreliable testimony even about “little things” it calls into questions their reliability in general yet you seem unconcerned about it?

Good thing I’m not most people then.
You’ll find that I’m open-minded when it comes to alot of things, including religion. I wasn’t a Christian my whole life and maybe it’s my age but I’m still learning more and more each and every day.
I’m constantly searching for more . . . whatever that might be.

 

[mrs_abbott]

Good thing I’m not most people then.
You’ll find that I’m open-minded when it comes to alot of things, including religion. I wasn’t a Christian my whole life and maybe it’s my age but I’m still learning more and more each and every day.
I’m constantly searching for more . . . whatever that might be.

The more I study, the more convinced I am that the fullness of Truth can’t be discovered in this life. It’s one of those mysteries to be fulfilled when we meet Christ face to face when we die.

 

[Spirithound]

Your problem here is that you are assuming that there must be a central authority from which all truth derives. I hold no such authority, so those churches can go on changing however they like. The church of christ is not an organization of men, but of the spirit.

The central authority from which all truth derives is God. God is absolute. He is unchanging. Therefore, His Truth is unchanging. How then can those churches claim the right to declare a change in truth?