Who Has Authority?

[FCEGM]

How do you know this for sure?

:yup: Sure it is! When Jesus said to Peter “upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell will NOT prevail against it”. Jesus was speaking of Christianity and his “invisible church”. Satan can’t break the bond of Christianity but Satan can and has influenced decisions in the church. Granted, he hasn’t triumphed but he’s definitely influenced it to some degree.

See my answer above to answer your first question. To answer your second question, the Bible! Pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit and turn to the Bible for the Truth.

The bishops and priests taught us what Jesus taught them. Like the Catholics always say, not everything was written in the Bible that Jesus taught.

When the “church of God” is spoken of in Scripture it refers to that one Church founded by Jesus Christ on St. Peter. That Church from that time on has had a visible identity as the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and continues to this day in its celebration of the Eucharist and its conferring the various Sacraments on its visible members, all in union with the Bishops of Rome, the legitimate successors to St. Peter and thus the protectors of the body of belief to which all Christians are to adhere. Scripture and Sacred Tradition make no distinction between this visible Church and the “body of believers”.

A reading of just St. Paul’s epistle to Titus shows this in action. Referring to the appointing of presbyters he writes:

“. . .he must have a firm grasp of the unchanging message of the tradition, so that he can be counted on both for giving encouragement in sound doctrine and for refuting those who argue against it, Ch. 1, vs. 9.”

“It is for you, then, to preach the behaviour which goes with healthy doctrine,” Ch. 2, vs. 1.

“This is what you must say, encouraging or arguing with full authority; no one should despise you,” Ch. 2, vs. 15.

“Remind them to be obedience to the officials in authority,” Ch. 3, vs. 1.

Without the visible authority of the Church and her sacramental life we are left with the invisible “authority” of our own predilections and disunity away from the true and full worship owed to God that is offered by the Church Christ founded.

It is only when, over time, various men and movements separated themselves from “union with Peter”, that the thought of a “invisible body of believers” not in union with the See of Rome came about.

A propos of this, the Venerable John Henry, Cardinal Newman wrote:

“The common sense of mankind does but support a conclusion thus forced upon us by analogical considerations. It feels that the very idea of revelation implies a present informant and guide, and that an infallible one; not a mere abstract declaration of Truths unknown before to man, or a record of history, or the result of an antiquarian research, but a message and a lesson speaking to this man and that. This is shown by the popular notion which has prevailed among us since the Reformation, that the Bible itself is such a guide; and which succeeded in overthrowing the supremacy of Church and Pope, for the very reason that it was a rival authority, not resisting merely, but supplanting it. In proportion, then, as we find, in matter of fact, that the inspired volume is not adapted or intended to subserve that purpose, are we forced to revert to that living and present Guide, who, at the era of our rejection of her, had been so long recognized as the dispenser of Scripture, according to times and circumstances, and the arbiter of all true doctrine and holy practice to her children. We feel a need, and she alone of all things under heaven supplies it. We are told that God has spoken. Where? In a book? We have tried it and it disappoints; it disappoints us, that most holy and blessed gift, not from fault of its own, but because it is used for a purpose for which it was not given. The Ethiopian’s reply, when St. Philip asked him if he understood what he was reading, is the voice of nature: “How can I, unless some man shall guide me?” The Church undertakes that office; she does what none else can do, and this is the secret of her power. . .

“The most obvious answer, then, to the question, why we yield to the authority of the Church in the questions and developments of faith, is, that some authority there must be if there is a revelation given, and other authority there is none but she. A revelation is not given, if there be no authority to decide what it is that is given,” An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, 87-89.

 

[E.E.N.S]

How do you know this for sure? **Because I have read the early Church Fathers. Have you?

:yup: Sure it is! When Jesus said to Peter “upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell will NOT prevail against it”. Jesus was speaking of Christianity and his “invisible church”. Satan can’t break the bond of Christianity but Satan can and has influenced decisions in the church. Granted, he hasn’t triumphed but he’s definitely influenced it to some degree. **That’s [the “Invisible Church”] exactly what I was saying was a new thought and not taught in Scripture, Tradition, or history.

See my answer above to answer your first question. To answer your second question, the Bible! Pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit and turn to the Bible for the Truth. **I DID pray for guidance and truth - that (and studying A LOT!) is how I found the Fullness of Truth within the Catholic Church - and I hope you find that out soon as well.

:yup:

The bishops and priests taught us what Jesus taught them. Like the Catholics always say, not everything was written in the Bible that Jesus taught.

** You can’t say that because you don’t have Apostolic succession. The Catholic Church does, (and so do the Eastern Orhtodox as well.) The priests and Bishops teach us what Christ taught the Apostles, and what the Apostles taught their disciples (such as Polycarp, Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, etc…) - show me, where is your succession? where is your history?? You will not find your beliefs prior to a couple hundred years ago.

 

[Petergee]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petergee
Are you saying that the bishops/priests/pastors/ministers in “your church” have received their faith unchanged in a direct line from the Apostles and their successors? That would make “your church” either Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. Every protestant denomination that I know originated from people who “ordained themselves”. In fact many of them boast of the fact that they are not part of the Apostolic Succession of bishops.

:nope: Not at all. They were called by God to lead his flock, just like the apostles were. They use the example of the apostles to help us on our way to Heaven. :yup:

And when two, three or more persons tell you that they somehow know that they “were called by God to lead His flock” and yet they want to lead it in different directions from each other and contradict each other? You claimed that “The apostles then passed their knowledge on to bishops, who in turn passed it on to priests and ministers and pastors” - of your denomination, I presume. Where is your evidence for this? You’re on very shaky ground following him/her just because he/she claims to have been called by God to lead you, and what he/she says seems to fit your (necessarily limited) interpretation of the Bible and knowledge of the history of Christianity.

You are lost, my friend. But don’t despair, the way to your home is right there in front of you if you only open your eyes to see it.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

Since I am being bombarded by several people, I thought I’d just write my answers in a new post.
Yes, I believe my pastor(s) have been called by God to do the work that they do and therefore are just like the apostles, who did as Jesus said.
No, I’m not Catholic or Orthodox but yet it still works.
I have considered coming to the Orthodox church though. Mind you I said “considering”. I feel they have things more correct than the CC, especially after reading things about the East-West Schism.
But, since I live out in a remote location and there are no Orthodox churches to be found, I am happy and content with my church.
Also, the evidence and basis of all my claims is Scripture, God’s infallible Word.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Since I am being bombarded by several people, I thought I’d just write my answers in a new post.
Yes, I believe my pastor(s) have been called by God to do the work that they do and therefore are just like the apostles, who did as Jesus said.
No, I’m not Catholic or Orthodox but yet it still works.
I have considered coming to the Orthodox church though. Mind you I said “considering”. I feel they have things more correct than the CC, especially after reading things about the East-West Schism.
But, since I live out in a remote location and there are no Orthodox churches to be found, I am happy and content with my church.
Also, the evidence and basis of all my claims is Scripture, God’s infallible Word.

You haven’t evidenced anything. I re-direct you back to post 162 (since nothing was touched in it by your post.)

 

[Blue_Serenity]

** You can’t say that because you don’t have Apostolic succession. The Catholic Church does, (and so do the Eastern Orhtodox as well.) The priests and Bishops teach us what Christ taught the Apostles, and what the Apostles taught their disciples (such as Polycarp, Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, etc…) - show me, where is your succession? where is your history?? You will not find your beliefs prior to a couple hundred years ago.

Fine then. Here I am addressing post #162.
How do you know we don’t have apostolic sucession? Is it because you know you do so you don’t think anyone else can share that claim?
Yes, I’ve read the early ECF’s. Quite interesting.
My history is the same as yours. I’ll even claim it differs with the East-West Schism before the Protestant Reformation even happened. Why? Mainly because we don’t accept that any human being is granted infallibility on a daily basis to make decisions like that.
I’m ready if you want to pull the writing of the Bible card on me.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Blue Serenity:

Fine then. Here I am addressing post #162.
How do you know we don’t have apostolic sucession?

I can better answer that question if you tell me what faith you are associated with, (who knows you might have some claim to Apostolic succession, but let’s see.)
Blue Serenity:

Is it because you know you do so you don’t think anyone else can share that claim?

No. The Eastern Orthodox have every bit of claim that we do. The Anglican church has Apostolic succession as well, but there are more issues here than with the Orthodox.
Blue Serenity:

Yes, I’ve read the early ECF’s. Quite interesting.

Then you should not be arguing with me that the Catholic Church has been there from the begining. It is quite clear.
Blue Serenity:

My history is the same as yours.

Expound on this for me. If you mean that in the objective sense that history is the same for all mankind, then yes…but if you mean that you have a unbroken succession of bishops that trace back to Peter (and thus Jesus Christ himself), then no.
Blue Serenity:

I’ll even claim it differs with the East-West Schism before the Protestant Reformation even happened.

I am not sure exactly what you are getting at here.
Blue Serenity:

Mainly because we don’t accept that any human being is granted infallibility on a daily basis to make decisions like that.

I know you don’t, but it is the teaching of the Church. (The same Church that gave us the Canon of Scripture…and you don’t seem to doubt their authority in that matter. )
Blue Serenity:

I’m ready if you want to pull the writing of the Bible card on me.

Huh?

 

[jmcrae]

Since I am being bombarded by several people, I thought I’d just write my answers in a new post.
Yes, I believe my pastor(s) have been called by God to do the work that they do and therefore are just like the apostles, who did as Jesus said.

To which Apostle does the head of your denomination trace back his Ordination?

Can you give the list of heads of your denomination that goes back to that Apostle, in an unbroken line?

Under what circumstances did that Apostle start your denomination, and where do we see it documented in the writings of the Early Church Fathers?

 

[chasjohn]

Heb 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

Ex. 28: 1 And take thou unto thee Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister unto me in the priest’s office.

Nobody takes this honour [authority] unto himself. Only those who were called as was Aaron, can claim to have the authority from God.
How was Aaron called? God told Moses [who already had authority from God] and told him to give authority to Aaron and his sons.

If you can find someone who was “called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof”, you will have answered your question
“Who Has Authority”

 

[E.E.N.S]

Heb 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

Ex. 28: 1 And take thou unto thee Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister unto me in the priest’s office.

Nobody takes this honour [authority] unto himself. Only those who were called as was Aaron, can claim to have the authority from God.
How was Aaron called? God told Moses [who already had authority from God] and told him to give authority to Aaron and his sons.

If you can find someone who was “called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof”, you will have answered your question
“Who Has Authority”

Did Jesus Christ not give His authority to Peter and the Apostles? Did they then not go and lay hands upon others? I can show you the unbroken line from Benedict XVI back to Peter.

Also Christ promised that the gates of Hell would never prevail against His Church. So take this and the Apostolic succession, and you will find two things: the authority of Christ passed down, and a demolishing of any evidence for a Total Apostacy.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Here is one that has authority John 3:16–21

I am a whosoever that believes

John 4 : 13-14—I am under the category of everyone

John 8: 12— I am a whoever.

Those verses take me right back to Jesus which in turns gives me authority.

The Apostles were given authority in the very begining to go out and make diciples of all nations and they did. There special powers died with them. The gospel message they were preaching–thankfully did not die with them. The Apostolic Succession everyone talks about I believe is the passing on of the Gospel message of Christ so all can hear and believe. I do not believe it was passed on to a specific church. I believe it was passed on to whoever believed it.

Yes certain men were made Bishops or overseers of the church. But if you look at the NT there were individual churches everywhere. The only common thread they had was they believed the Gospel message and wanted to continue to teach it so all could hear.
I have been reading Church History from a catholic and Protestant written book and it looks like the Church of Rome became the most powerful church over time because they were the church in the most powerful city. Yes the church was there but it was not considered THE CHURCH right away. It evolved into what we know it as today. The book gives reference to Peter (not as the first Pope. It says there is no evidence of Peter being in Rome)but not to Linus at all. It references Popes but I thought Linus was next in line after Peter–right? There is no mention of Him at all.
Thats all for now.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Here is one that has authority John 3:16–21

I am a whosoever that believes

John 4 : 13-14—I am under the category of everyone

John 8: 12— I am a whoever.

Those verses take me right back to Jesus which in turns gives me authority.

Let’s just post these so everyone knows:

3:16-21
16 For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world, to judge the world, but that the world may be saved by him. 18 He that believeth in him is not judged. But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: because the light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light: for their works were evil. 20 For every one that doth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, that his works may not be reproved.21 But he that doth truth, cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, because they are done in God.

4:13-14
13 Jesus answered, and said to her: Whosoever drinketh of this water, shall thirst again; but he that shall drink of the water that I will give him, shall not thirst for ever: 14 But the water that I will give him, shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into life everlasting.

8:12
12 Again therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying: I am the light of the world: he that followeth me, walketh not in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

(AFH, I don’t see your point really, how does this show that you have authority? These passages aren’t even talking about authority. )

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Let’s just post these so everyone knows:

3:16-21
16 For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world, to judge the world, but that the world may be saved by him. 18 He that believeth in him is not judged. But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: because the light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light: for their works were evil. 20 For every one that doth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, that his works may not be reproved.21 But he that doth truth, cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, because they are done in God.

4:13-14
13 Jesus answered, and said to her: Whosoever drinketh of this water, shall thirst again; but he that shall drink of the water that I will give him, shall not thirst for ever: 14 But the water that I will give him, shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into life everlasting.

8:12
12 Again therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying: I am the light of the world: he that followeth me, walketh not in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

(AFH, I don’t see your point really, how does this show that you have authority? These passages aren’t even talking about authority. )

Hi,

Sorry I edited the post and added more but I guess it posted before I was done. The verses show my link (my historical connection)back to early christianity since I am a believer. I will write more at another time I am hurried right now.

 

[E.E.N.S]

The Apostles were given authority in the very begining to go out and make diciples of all nations and they did. There special powers died with them. The gospel message they were preaching–thankfully did not die with them. The Apostolic Succession everyone talks about I believe is the passing on of the Gospel message of Christ so all can hear and believe. I do not believe it was passed on to a specific church. I believe it was passed on to whoever believed it.

Yes certain men were made Bishops or overseers of the church. But if you look at the NT there were individual churches everywhere. The only common thread they had was they believed the Gospel message and wanted to continue to teach it so all could hear.
I have been reading Church History from a catholic and Protestant written book and it looks like the Church of Rome became the most powerful church over time because they were the church in the most powerful city. Yes the church was there but it was not considered THE CHURCH right away. It evolved into what we know it as today. The book gives reference to Peter (not as the first Pope. It says there is no evidence of Peter being in Rome)but not to Linus at all. It references Popes but I thought Linus was next in line after Peter–right? There is no mention of Him at all.
Thats all for now.

I think you are reading a poorly written book, lol. (I have to leave now, otherwise I would stay and comment more on your post, but I am sure someone else will do so before I get back later…however, I leave you with a quote from two disciples OF THE APOSTLE JOHN!!)

Ignatius of Antioch

Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 A.D. 110]).

In like manner let everyone respect the deacons as they would respect Jesus Christ, and just as they respect the bishop as a type of the Father, and the presbyters as the council of God and college of the apostles. Without these, it cannot be called a Church. I am confident that you accept this, for I have received the exemplar of your love and have it with me in the person of your bishop. His very demeanor is a great lesson and his meekness is his strength. I believe that even the godless do respect him (Letter to the Trallians 3:1-2 A. D. 110]).

The Martyrdom of Polycarp

When finally he concluded his prayer, after remembering all who had at any time come his way – small folk and great folk, distinguished and undistinguished, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world – the time for departure came. So they placed him on an ***, and brought him into the city on a great Sabbath (*The Martyrdom of Polycarp *8 A.D. 110]).

(I don’t know, they sound pretty Catholic to me! )

 

[ALLFORHIM]

I think you are reading a poorly written book, lol. (I have to leave now, otherwise I would stay and comment more on your post, but I am sure someone else will do so before I get back later…however, I leave you with a quote from two disciples OF THE APOSTLE JOHN!!)

Ignatius of Antioch

Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 A.D. 110]).

In like manner let everyone respect the deacons as they would respect Jesus Christ, and just as they respect the bishop as a type of the Father, and the presbyters as the council of God and college of the apostles. Without these, it cannot be called a Church. I am confident that you accept this, for I have received the exemplar of your love and have it with me in the person of your bishop. His very demeanor is a great lesson and his meekness is his strength. I believe that even the godless do respect him (Letter to the Trallians 3:1-2 A. D. 110]).

The Martyrdom of Polycarp

When finally he concluded his prayer, after remembering all who had at any time come his way – small folk and great folk, distinguished and undistinguished, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world – the time for departure came. So they placed him on an ***, and brought him into the city on a great Sabbath (*The Martyrdom of Polycarp *8 A.D. 110]).

(I don’t know, they sound pretty Catholic to me! )

Hi, Sounds pretty non-catholic christian as well.

 

[jmcrae]

Hi, Sounds pretty non-catholic christian as well.

How so?

Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father.

I never met any non-Catholic Christians who were obediently following their Bishop. In fact, most of them have no idea what his name is, or where to find his writings. (By the way, St. Ignatius is referring to the Catholic Bishop of your city; not to anyone who is self-appointed or improperly “ordained.” “The clergy” and “the deacons” are those leaders of your territorial parish who were ordained or at least appointed by your Catholic Bishop; once again, not people who have appointed themselves, or been “ordained” by someone not having authority from the Catholic Church to do so.)

 

[ALLFORHIM]

How so?

While the church is a living organism, it is also an or ganization, involving offices and function. There are two designated offices in the New Testament church. The office of elder (Gk. presbuteros) emphasizes maturity and dignity and normally denotes an older person. Elders were appointed as leaders in the local churches (1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5). The term bishop or overseer (Gk. episkopos) denotes the work of shepherding by the elder (1 Tim. 3:1). The terms are basically synonymous, although elder signifies the office whereas overseer emphasizes function. The work of the elders involved teaching (1 Tim. 5:17), ruling (1 Tim. 5:17), shepherding, nurturing, and caring for the flock (1 Tim. 3:1). Their qualifications are listed in 1 Timothy 3:1–7.
The other church office is that of deacon (Gk. diakonos), meaning “servant.” From the qualifications cited in 1 Timothy 3:8–13 it is evident the deacons were also involved in spiritual ministry, albeit as subordinate to the elders. Along with the elders they had an authoritative position in the local church (cf. Phil. 1:1).
It is not entirely clear whether Paul was advocating a separate office of deaconness (1 Tim. 3:11). The word gunaikas, translated “women,” may refer to the wives of the deacons or to a separate class of deaconesses.
I believe we all are following the way a church should be run. The CC just added an extra office The Pope.

 

[jmcrae]

While the church is a living organism, it is also an or ganization, involving offices and function. There are two designated offices in the New Testament church. The office of elder (Gk. presbuteros) emphasizes maturity and dignity and normally denotes an older person. Elders were appointed as leaders in the local churches (1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5).

By the laying on of hands by the Apostles. Yes, I know.

The term bishop or overseer (Gk. episkopos) denotes the work of shepherding by the elder (1 Tim. 3:1). The terms are basically synonymous, although elder signifies the office whereas overseer emphasizes function. The work of the elders involved teaching (1 Tim. 5:17), ruling (1 Tim. 5:17), shepherding, nurturing, and caring for the flock (1 Tim. 3:1). Their qualifications are listed in 1 Timothy 3:1–7.
The other church office is that of deacon (Gk. diakonos), meaning “servant.” From the qualifications cited in 1 Timothy 3:8–13 it is evident the deacons were also involved in spiritual ministry, albeit as subordinate to the elders. Along with the elders they had an authoritative position in the local church (cf. Phil. 1:1).

Deacons and presbyters (priests) were ordained to their ministries by their Bishops. Only an authorized Bishop (ie: one who had been ordained by an Apostle) was allowed to ordain deacons and presbyters.

It is not entirely clear whether Paul was advocating a separate office of deaconness (1 Tim. 3:11). The word gunaikas, translated “women,” may refer to the wives of the deacons or to a separate class of deaconesses.

Women have always had special roles to play in the Church, as nuns, sisters, hermits, wives, and mothers, and within those roles, teachers, role models, nurses, and other essential areas of service to the Church.

I believe we all are following the way a church should be run. The CC just added an extra office The Pope.

When did we “add” this office? As I read the New Testament, the Pope was ordained personally by Jesus Christ (John 21;15-19) before there were ever any bishops, priests, or deacons.

 

[MariaG]

Sure Catholic Church is a denomination. If not, then why not just say the Church? You are differentiating the Catholic Church from Baptist Churches and etc.

I just had to laugh. The Church does in fact refer to herself as just the Church. Read official documents.

Here in the forums, people frequently get confused when we refer simply to “the Church” and so we say Catholic Church.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

By the laying on of hands by the Apostles. Yes, I know.

Deacons and presbyters (priests) were ordained to their ministries by their Bishops. Only an authorized Bishop (ie: one who had been ordained by an Apostle) was allowed to ordain deacons and presbyters.

Women have always had special roles to play in the Church, as nuns, sisters, hermits, wives, and mothers, and within those roles, teachers, role models, nurses, and other essential areas of service to the Church.

When did we “add” this office? As I read the New Testament, the Pope was ordained personally by Jesus Christ (John 21;15-19) before

there were ever any bishops, priests, or deacons.Hi,
I dont see the Pope being mentioned at all in the NT. I know the CC refers to Matthew but that is a misintrpretation of that verse(I know you dont agree and all the arguments have already been made for both sides) In Acts I read their to be several Bishops given the authority based on the fact that they believed in Christ and so the Apostles approved by laying on of hands. All of the Apostles were doing this. No one had authority over the other. Jesus always spoke to them as equals. I know there are verses regarding Peter but I also believe them to be a misintrepretation(again I know this is not what the CC believes and it has been beaten to death already)

That is all I can write for now. My hubby wants the computer See ya for now