Who Has Authority?

[VWcrazy]

Should church traditions be accepted as equally authoritative as Scripture?

Scripture comes from Sacred Tradition. Without Sacred Tradition, there would be no Scripture.

 

[RNRobert]

God had the authority and He made sure the church put it together the way He intended.

Faith carries me through the rest of your question.

Ok then, my next question: if God could ensure that his church could properly assemble the canon, then why couldn’t He protect the church from properly interpreting Scripture (as many Protestants seem to think)?

I’ll repeat what I wrote in an earlier post: Doesn’t an infallible Bible deserve an infallible interpreter?

 

[artist3189]

Scripture comes from Sacred Tradition. Without Sacred Tradition, there would be no Scripture.

This is ESSENTIALLY correct, but I think the orig. question was more about, Church Tradition, now, as it relates to Sacred Scripture.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

This is a great question and one I don’t know if a bunch of us Catholic know-it-alls on his site, well, know…There’s big ‘T’ and little ‘t’. If it’s Tradition, as in “Teaching Tradition” handed down by the Church through history, now I have to be careful here as how to word this, then yes. If the Church looks at Tradition in a theological sense, and deems it, binding as Doctrine, then yes, and it would necessarily HAVE to be Scriptural in nature. There are traditions, such as liturgical ones, prayer and devotional ones, Saints, etc. No one is bound, to pray certain prayers(except at Mass!!), or pray to Saints, we be believe them to be in heaven, in Communion with us, the Church on earth, but we are not bound to acknowledge them, that is private pious devotion, same goes with private revelations such as Fatima. Catholics are not bound to acknowledge Fatima with prayers or anything else, the Church states and acknowledges that the EVENT was REAL, TRUE and from GOD, and if you CHOOSE to ask Mary for her prayers under the title of ‘Our Lady of Fatima’, as a pious devotion, then do so, but we are not bound to it. Then we have Doctrines, with some scriptural nature but are Revelations through the Church, by way of understanding of certain things, like Immaculate Conception, which is Dogma, to be accepted by all Catholics. This obviously, is not STRICTLY spelled out in Scripture but is supported by Tradition, Theological understanding and with a Scriptural connection. Long answer and I’m not sure it was what you needed.

Hi,
Yes that was good thank you. I dont have a problem with little t tradition. The way I see it if Sacred Tradition matches the Bible Im ok with it. If Sacred Tradition does not match then I would absolutely question it.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Hi guys,
Ill answer your questions tom. Im signing off for the night. It is my Bday and we are going out.
Talk to you tom.

AFH

 

[mrs_abbott]

This is ESSENTIALLY correct, but I think the orig. question was more about, Church Tradition, now, as it relates to Sacred Scripture.

Are you sure you don’t mean Church tradition? (with a little “t”)

 

[jmcrae]

Indeed but where does it say that we are saved by works?

It’s not that we’re saved by works - it’s that we are condemned by not doing works. If a man says he has faith, but does no works, then St. James says that his faith is void and of no effect - he is not saved. We find this in James 2:14-26

It’s even more clear in Matthew 25:31-46 in the account of the Last Judgement, where Jesus doesn’t even ask what they believed (all of the people in the crowd are believers; the unbelievers doubtless go straight to Hell with no trial) but rather, what they did - those who did nothing, though they had a strong belief in Jesus, go to Hell, and those who did good works go to Heaven.

In Matthew 7:21-27, Jesus tells us straight out, “21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. 24 Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these my words, and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof.”

It seems obvious from these passages that we receive the grace of God through a combination of faith and works.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

It’s not that we’re saved by works - it’s that we are condemned by not doing works. If a man says he has faith, but does no works, then St. James says that his faith is void and of no effect - he is not saved. We find this in James 2:14-26

It’s even more clear in Matthew 25:31-46 in the account of the Last Judgement, where Jesus doesn’t even ask what they believed (all of the people in the crowd are believers; the unbelievers doubtless go straight to Hell with no trial) but rather, what they did - those who did nothing, though they had a strong belief in Jesus, go to Hell, and those who did good works go to Heaven.

In Matthew 7:21-27, Jesus tells us straight out, “21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. 24 Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these my words, and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof.”

It seems obvious from these passages that we receive the grace of God through a combination of faith and works.

So you believe that works are a product of a genuine faith and we saved because of that faith through the grace of God?

 

[Blue_Serenity]

It’s not that we’re saved by works - it’s that we are condemned by not doing works. If a man says he has faith, but does no works, then St. James says that his faith is void and of no effect - he is not saved. We find this in James 2:14-26

It’s even more clear in Matthew 25:31-46 in the account of the Last Judgement, where Jesus doesn’t even ask what they believed (all of the people in the crowd are believers; the unbelievers doubtless go straight to Hell with no trial) but rather, what they did - those who did nothing, though they had a strong belief in Jesus, go to Hell, and those who did good works go to Heaven.

In Matthew 7:21-27, Jesus tells us straight out, “21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. 24 Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these my words, and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof.”

It seems obvious from these passages that we receive the grace of God through a combination of faith and works.

So you believe that works are a product of a genuine faith and we are saved because of that faith through the grace of God?

 

[Blue_Serenity]

AllForHim, Blue Serenity,

I have a question for you that is relevant since as the OP I asked about authority. You claim to follow the Bible as your sole rule of faith. How do you know for a fact that your Bible is in fact, *the *Bible? I’m not talking about the Old Testament since that was already in existence at the time of Jesus, but referring specifically to the New Testament. Jesus himself never wrote a word of the NT, and the church was in existence for years before any of the sacred writers set pen to paper. Even when they did, they were not writing for the entire Church but for a selected community. After the deaths of the Apostles their writings were collected and circulated and used during Church services. However, there was dispute on which book should could be inspired and which should not, and this process took a couple hundred years.
So, how do you know that there should be 27 books in the New Testament, not 25 or 30? How do you know that the books that make up the New Testament are supposed to be there? Perhaps one of the books isn’t really inspired (for instance, there’s nothing in Philemon in 3 John that really jumps out at me as being inspired), or perhaps there was an inspired book that was left out. Who had authority to set the New Testament canon?

Faith, mostly.
I trust the ECF’s and the writers/composers of the Bible were inspired by the HS in their decision-making, since God knew the Bible would be a key tool in instructing His followers on the path to Heaven. We’d be lost without it.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

We know that. We’re asking you what are the logical reasons why you reject this “view” which the overwhelming majority of Christians have always had.
I’m afraid that, to make the slightest impression on most Christians, you’ll need a lot more to justify your decision to reject it than simply repeating that it doesn’t correlate with what you personally deduce from studying the Bible.

But that’s just it. I’m not trying to impress anyone here. :nope:

 

[Blue_Serenity]

That you have become convinced of the claims of the Church and are wondering when the next RCIA starts …

You might be waiting for awhile for that one to happen.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

But doesn’t an infallible Bible deserve an infallible interpreter? What good is an infallible Bible if no one can infallibly interpret it?

The One who wrote it is the One who interprets it: the Holy Spirit.

 

[Blue_Serenity]

How do you know that the Bible is the infallible Word of God?

Because He said so.

 

[VWcrazy]

Because He said so

Book, chapter, and verse, plz.

You might be waiting for awhile for that one to happen.

Let’s hope not! Christ wants us in His Church.

 

[RNRobert]

The One who wrote it is the One who interprets it: the Holy Spirit.

But there are thousands of Protestant churches, all claiming to follow teach the Bible and claiming to be led by the Holy Spirit, yet teaching contradicting doctrines. They can’t all be right.
Jesus told the Apostles, “He who hears you, hears me.” Was this promise null and void upon the death of the last Apostle, or did does it continue with their successors?
Blue Serenity:

Faith, mostly.
I trust the ECF’s and the writers/composers of the Bible were inspired by the HS in their decision-making, since God knew the Bible would be a key tool in instructing His followers on the path to Heaven. We’d be lost without it.

But who do we trust to reliably interpret it? The ECFs and Apostles are long gone. I’m not ashamed to call myself unlearned. I don’t know the original languages that the Bible was written in, and many times something get can “lost in translation” (which brings up another issue: how do you know you have an accurate translation?). The Bible itself it contains “things hard to understand.” Many cults use the Bible to promote their teachings. When I am in doubt, whose authority should I trust?

Also, you live in a unique age, where literacy is widespread and the written word is easily available. What about those who lived before the printing press, when Bibles were very expensive? What are they to do?

 

[RNRobert]

Because He said so

Book, chapter, and verse, plz.

You beat me to it!

 

[RNRobert]

Hi guys,
Ill answer your questions tom. Im signing off for the night. It is my Bday and we are going out.
Talk to you tom.

AFH

[SIGN]HAPPY BIRTHDAY![/SIGN]

 

[Spirithound]

How do you know that the Bible is the infallible Word of God?

Check this out: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1748022#post1748022
Step 5: Jesus said: Matthew 16:18-19
Step 6: The Church says the Bible is the inerrant Word of God.

Indeed but where does it say that we are saved by works?

James 2:24

Should church traditions be accepted as equally authoritative as Scripture? Or, should church traditions be followed only if they are in full agreement with Scripture?

Tradition (with a capital T) is equally authoritative to Scripture, but I feel it is better than Scripture, simply because it is more easily understood. Scripture, as we know, is interpreted hundreds of different ways. We know, logically speaking, that not all of these ways are driven by the Holy Spirit, because they contradict each other. The Catechism is very straightforward.
Now, that being said, I believe that Tradition is only Tradition if it is in full agreement with Scripture, which really is a logical necessity, because Tradition is interpretation of Scripture (see previous paragraph).

 

[Petergee]

**Quote:
Originally Posted by Petergee
We know that. We’re asking you what are the logical reasons why you reject this “view” which the overwhelming majority of Christians have always had.
I’m afraid that, to make the slightest impression on most Christians, you’ll need a lot more to justify your decision to reject it than simply repeating that it doesn’t correlate with what you personally deduce from studying the Bible. **
But that’s just it. I’m not trying to impress anyone here. :nope:

By “impress” I mean “logically convince anyone of the logical truth of what you believe”.

Now you know that Catholics believe things which CONTRADICT what you believe, and that Catholics do things which they believe God commands us to do but which you believe God commands us NOT to do, and vice versa. You say you don’t care about this, it’s all good and that both we and you in some inexplicable way both “have the truth” even though by definition truth CANNOT contradict truth.
(If I have misunderstood and misrepresented what you’ve been saying, please correct me.)

All this doesn’t faze you. But Christ commanded us to take His Truth to everyone on Earth and teach them to believe in that Truth. Obedient to Christ, we want you to believe what Catholics believe. Surely you also in your heart want us to beliive what you believe? Are you not disobeying Christ if you do not do your best to bring us to believe what you believe is the Truth revealed to you by the Holy Spirit?

Just as seriously, there are many people, even in Western countries, who have only the vaguest idea of the claims of Christianity. When they see Christians speaking about their beliefs in a way which defies logic, they are unlikely to conclude that Christ is the Truth; rather, they would conclude that Christianity is a lot of contradictory superstitious mumbo-jumbo. And tragically, many do. Christianity is NOT about following funny internal feelings which are attributed to mystical experiences of the Holy Spirit telling us how to interpret an eclectic collection of ancient books to tell us life’s meaning and purpose and how we should act. Christ is THE TRUTH and Christianity is eminently logical. Why did modern rational science appear in Christendom and in no other culture? Because Christianity is fundamentally rational. Don’t chuck that rationality out.