Who has the courage to admit to the numbers?

[Mijoy2]

Missing Mass is a mortal sin. Self-gratification is a mortal sin, Contraception is a mortal sin.

Populous - all the above = <1% of the people in (at least) America.

Are 99+% of people going to burn in hell for eternity?

If so, this a thread for you to admit this is what you believe

If not, this is a thread for you to explain why not.

Clarification- Please, please - do not use the “Catholic Church does not say anyone is in hell” argument. That argument is a logical cop-out. Although I understand the argument, it does not apply to my clear question of logic in this thread. Please do not go there, it evades the discussion with a cop-out, it lacks the courage to face the question head on.

 

[LilyM]

These things in and of themselves are not mortal sins.

They are only grave matter. That means they need to be done with full knowledge (that they are grave) AND full consent to be mortal sins.

One must to meet all of the above conditions PLUS fail to repent either interiorly through perfect contrition or exteriorly through the sacrament of confession at any time prior to death, in order to end up in Hell.

Of course whoever meets all four of these conditions will end up in Hell. The CCC says so plainly, as will any knowledgeable Catholic. If 99% of all Catholics do meet those conditions, then 99% will end up in Hell. Somehow I doubt it. Catechesis about these matters is abysmal, so it is most unlikely that the whole 99% would pass that hurdle of full knowledge for one thing.

Are you asking me to assert that 99% of all Catholics meet all four of these conditions? To say so would require knowledge of the state of all their souls - especially at the instant of their death. Which knowledge none of us possesses. It is no logical cop-out, it is simply an impossibility for any mere human being to know such a thing.

 

[Gorgias]

Are you asking me to assert that 99% of all Catholics meet all four of these conditions? To say so would require knowledge of the state of all their souls - especially at the instant of their death.

This…!

Not only ‘especially’ at the moment of death, but really, it’s relevant only at the moment of death. A Catholic could potentially go through their whole life, skipping Mass, contracepting, and self-gratifying – and, if before death, they had a genuine conversion and availed themselves of Reconciliation… well, then they’d go to heaven!

In other words, what (a very putative) 99% of the Catholic population does at some point in their lives doesn’t matter, compared to the state of their souls at death.

 

[WildCatholic]

This…!

Not only ‘especially’ at the moment of death, but really, it’s relevant only at the moment of death. A Catholic could potentially go through their whole life, skipping Mass, contracepting, and self-gratifying – and, if before death, they had a genuine conversion and availed themselves of Reconciliation… well, then they’d go to heaven!

In other words, what (a very putative) 99% of the Catholic population does at some point in their lives doesn’t matter, compared to the state of their souls at death.

But what if they plan it that way. I’m sure a lot of people think, oh well I can do what I want until i’m about to die. While I don’t think 99% will be in hell, it will probably be pretty darn high (for sure over 50%)

 

[Gorgias]

But what if they plan it that way.

Right – that’s the sin of ‘presumption’, and it’s a totally different situation…!

it will probably be pretty darn high (for sure over 50%)

I don’t know. After all, what you’re saying is that, although God wants all to be in heaven with Him, he’s gonna have a failure rate of >50%?

 

[claudegris]

I don’t know about 99% or 50% (or any other percentage for that matter).
But if that were the case it would certainly not be God’s failure.

'Tis our own very sad failure rate.

 

[ADH]

Another way of looking at it… If you really believe in the real presence of Jesus in the mass. Jesus who knows you so completely and loves you enough to die for you. Jesus who knows all the situations in your life… all the uncertainty, all the joys and sorrows all the answers you are seeking… Jesus who will comfort you and give you strength. if you really believed why wouldn’t you find a way to seek him and be at mass every day? maybe before or after work. The church still has mass every day and there are people who go. If you knew all that was involved you would look at it as a lifesaver and not as an obligation.
If you knew the many long term benefits in not gratifying yourself and have ever tasted the
sweet benefits of self control why would you want to live for yourself… there is so much more.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

I admit to these numbers 100% of all Americans are sinners. The fact that we sin does not mean the Church is wrong; it means the Church is needed.

 

[cornbread_r2]

Right – that’s the sin of ‘presumption’, and it’s a totally different situation…!

…]

Unless the sin of presumption is unforgivable, then all they need do is confess it along with all the rest and all is well, I presume.

 

[DavidFilmer]

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. [Matt 7:13-14]

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Few doesn’t mean majority.

If few is even 3 in 10 and if 10 billion people have lived in the entire history of the world then that means that 3 billion will make it to heaven and seven billion will go to Hell!

I don’t see how few can mean more than 30% so a lot of people will be in Hell!

Knowing that is a GOOD thing–fear of the Lord is a GOOD thing.

Ultimately if we make it to heaven ift will be out of love for Jesus because He loved us and chose us first. Love is the prime motivation–but having other motivations–such as fear are OK.

Jesus teaches us to fear him who can cast body and soul into Hell!

 

[Ignatius]

Clarification- Please, please - do not use the “Catholic Church does not say anyone is in hell” argument. .

Question: Why does The Catholic Church not teach that anyonee is in hell?

Answer: The possibility of Repentance and forgiveness! That is after all why God became man, suffered and died!

Apparently you don’t have a Catechism of The Catholic Church.
You could greatly benefit from it.

 

[Joy2day]

Another way of looking at it… If you really believe in the real presence of Jesus in the mass. Jesus who knows you so completely and loves you enough to die for you. Jesus who knows all the situations in your life… all the uncertainty, all the joys and sorrows all the answers you are seeking… Jesus who will comfort you and give you strength. if you really believed why wouldn’t you find a way to seek him and be at mass every day? maybe before or after work. The church still has mass every day and there are people who go. If you knew all that was involved you would look at it as a lifesaver and not as an obligation.
If you knew the many long term benefits in not gratifying yourself and have ever tasted the
sweet benefits of self control why would you want to live for yourself… there is so much more.

Well u dont have to go to mass every day. I guess it all hinges on what one understands and considers grave matter. I think people have different levels of understanding of the real presence & we all have an imperfect knowledge of God in this life. I guess what might stop me going every day was if i thought it might become an occasion of sin for either myself or another. Eg. If when u went to mass someone spent their energy provoking/harassing u, & u found urself too distracted to pray properly - or maybe u think ur presence is causing them to sin - in God’s house! But yes, maybe the answer is to have more faith. But i think u also have to apply reason.

 

[Cathhsmom]

Missing Mass is a mortal sin. Self-gratification is a mortal sin, Contraception is a mortal sin.

Populous - all the above = <1% of the people in (at least) America.

Are 99+% of people going to burn in hell for eternity?

If so, this a thread for you to admit this is what you believe

If not, this is a thread for you to explain why not.

Clarification- Please, please - do not use the “Catholic Church does not say anyone is in hell” argument. That argument is a logical cop-out. Although I understand the argument, it does not apply to my clear question of logic in this thread. Please do not go there, it evades the discussion with a cop-out, it lacks the courage to face the question head on.

So, basically, you are claiming that 99% of Americans are doing the above. How the heck do you know that? Those are just made up statistics. For one thing, children would not. So, right there, you have less than 99% of Americans that could even commit a mortal sin. If you are going to go all “logical cop-out” warning on us, then you need to look at your argument to start with. BTW, if you are using Guttmaker Institute data for the contracepting, have you looked at where they got those statistics? They only looked at women between the ages of 14/15 and menopause. Then, they included anyone who had EVER used contraception, not just were currently using it. And, they excluded women who were already pregnant. To top it off, they considered women using NFP as contracepting. So, their statistics are so bogus and bloated!

 

[Delaine75]

While I don’t think 99% will be in hell, it will probably be pretty darn high (for sure over 50%)

I’m pretty sure only God knows whether that will be true or untrue. None of us here should presume to know anything that happens to the souls of anyone else “for sure” after their death.

 

[johnnyc176]

Unless the sin of presumption is unforgivable, then all they need do is confess it along with all the rest and all is well, I presume.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church…

1492 Repentance (also called contrition) must be inspired by motives that arise from faith. If repentance arises from love of charity for God, it is called “perfect” contrition; if it is founded on other motives, it is called “imperfect.”

 

[Mijoy2]

So, basically, you are claiming that 99% of Americans are doing the above. How the heck do you know that? Those are just made up statistics. For one thing, children would not. So, right there, you have less than 99% of Americans that could even commit a mortal sin. If you are going to go all “logical cop-out” warning on us, then you need to look at your argument to start with. BTW, if you are using Guttmaker Institute data for the contracepting, have you looked at where they got those statistics? They only looked at women between the ages of 14/15 and menopause. Then, they included anyone who had EVER used contraception, not just were currently using it. And, they excluded women who were already pregnant. To top it off, they considered women using NFP as contracepting. So, their statistics are so bogus and bloated!

I knew I’d get this so I should have qualified. These stats are definately made up. However I do believe they are accurate if the cross sectional experiece of my life is even remotely anything like across the rest of the country. I have a very large extended family and the vast majority of my friends and co-workers that are catholic do not attend mass. My numbers are bogus and made up, yes, however I am certain they are accurate. Let’s even drop them by 10%, it doesn’t take away from post at all.

The accuracy of my numbers is not what is at issue.

 

[Mijoy2]

I love the concept of the repent on the deathbed perspective. However what troubles me about it is that we are suggesting that this becomes the normal means of salvation.

 

[Gorgias]

"cornbread_r2:

Unless the sin of presumption is unforgivable, then all they need do is confess it along with all the rest and all is well, I presume.

No, it’s not unforgivable, but it’s not just a matter of “just confess it and all is well”. One has to be sorry for the sin. If I’m not sorry for my presumption, but rather, just confess it mechanically, then I’m not contrite – and I’m not forgiven! In other words, if I’m still just trying to ‘game the system’, then I’m not really contrite.

(If, on the other hand, I really am sorry – perhaps because I realize that it was a stupid thing to do (essentially, presumption is all about trying to trick God) and I don’t want to go to Hell, then confessing my presumption is efficacious.)

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church…

1492 Repentance (also called contrition) must be inspired by motives that arise from faith. If repentance arises from love of charity for God, it is called “perfect” contrition; if it is founded on other motives, it is called “imperfect.”

Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re attempting to demonstrate here, but it seems that you’re trying to say that presumption is one of the “other motives” that are part of “imperfect contrition”? That’s not the case at all! The other motives here are the fear of punishment (i.e., hell), not the motive of trying to trick God into forgiving sinful behavior!

 

[cornbread_r2]

No, it’s not unforgivable, but it’s not just a matter of “just confess it and all is well”. One has to be sorry for the sin. If I’m not sorry for my presumption, but rather, just confess it mechanically, then I’m not contrite – and I’m not forgiven! In other words, if I’m still just trying to ‘game the system’, then I’m not really contrite.

(If, on the other hand, I really am sorry – perhaps because I realize that it was a stupid thing to do (essentially, presumption is all about trying to trick God) and I don’t want to go to Hell, then confessing my presumption is efficacious.)

I assumed that persons who were guilty of committing the sin of presumption throughout their lives would not be still trying to game the system while confessing their sins on their deathbeds. They confess that sin along with the rest – are sorry for all of them (even if imperfectly so) – and they’re good to go.

I know people chaff at that idea because it somehow makes it seem too easy, but as far as I can tell, it really is that easy.