Who Has the Final Authority?

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boastinjesus, you said:
Lastly, you say that if I reject the councils I’m making myself the final authority. The final authority is the Bible.
The bible cannot interpret itself, therefore the bible is not the Christians final authority. The Christian interpreting the bible is the one making authoritative declarations, based on his or her interpretation, so clearly the final authority belongs to each and every Christian interpreting the bible.

Most people will respond by ignoring what I have just said, and say:

“The final authority is the Bible.”

What’s your response…?
 
You have been here for about 4 years and close to 3,000 posts, so maybe sleep on it. 😉

If I drove you off with some of my sharper posts, then I apologize. :o
I don’t think she meant leaving the CA but leaving the thread;)
 
Hey pablope, regarding JonNC…🙂
pablope;8481925]=joe370;8476165]
Who is Father Martin?
You’re kidding, right Joe? A former Lutheran?
joe370;8479581]
Sorry…had to :rotfl::rotfl: I think this was on Jon’s gotcha moments…😃
Nah…I know Jon and he is definitely not a gotcha you guy. Jon is about as non-gotcha as it gets. I know you were just joking around, 😃 but I must say: :👍

I just wish all of my debates, discussions, chats, whatever you want to call it, with my other non-Catholic friends were as friendly, sincere and non-confrontational, as mine are with Jon. Jon is the genuine article when it comes to forum propriety and all around good-natured etiquette .👍
 
Hey pablope, regarding JonNC…🙂

Nah…I know Jon and he is definitely not a gotcha you guy. Jon is about as non-gotcha as it gets. I know you were just joking around, 😃 but I must say: :👍

I just wish all of my debates, discussions, chats, whatever you want to call it, with my other non-Catholic friends were as friendly, sincere and non-confrontational, as mine are with Jon. Jon is the genuine article when it comes to forum propriety and all around good-natured etiquette .👍
👍 Got that right…and thanks to Jon…I thought all protestants were the same…mainly against catholics…now I know better.

And we all could use some humor sometimes.😃
 
So the priest, actually took time during a funeral Mass to mock those to whom he was speaking? Hmm…kind of hard to believe…but if you say so…
It’s not normal for priests to speak at funerals? Thanks for questioning my integrity. That’s quite helpful…
 
boastinjesus:

Then why did the early church also wait 325 years to define and ratify the doctrine of the Trinity?

No. Jesus teaches we are accountable to God,not the Bible. Second, the council of Jamnia was not even an official council and canonization was not even the priority.Third,if the Jews already knew which books were “scripture” then by whose authority was the Jewish canon fixed?

Opinions have no bearing on doctrinal Truth.

Well it depends on what perspective one wants to approach the authorship of John. From a faithful position,yes John wrote it. From a historical perspective,there is not empirical-historical sources proving John did in fact write it. As for the teachings? Actually the teachings are the same and the fact someone may not be teaching something correct does not mean the entire church is false.

Chapter and verse where Jesus states the Bible is the final authority?

Well if you are claiming the councils can err,then with what certitude do you know the very Bible you read has the correct books? What about the Trinity? Incarnation?
No one believed in the Trinity before the council?

Matt. 22:29 Jesus says they are wrong because they don’t know the Scriptures (they were instead holding to tradition). Obviously, that’s because the Scriptures are the standard of authority about God. So when you say “No. Jesus teaches that we’re accountable to God”, I’m not sure what your point is. Of course we’re accountable to God, but God reveals Himself to us through Scripture, and that doesn’t change the Bible verse I quoted and referenced.
 
Hey boastinjesus…:).
No one believed in the Trinity before the council?

In your opinion were the first and second century Christians familiar with the Trinitarian dogma?
Matt. 22:29 Jesus says they are wrong because they don’t know the Scriptures (they were instead holding to tradition). Obviously, that’s because the Scriptures are the standard of authority about God.
 
It’s not normal for priests to speak at funerals? Thanks for questioning my integrity. That’s quite helpful…
Yes, to speak words of comfort to the deceased’s family…not speak apologetics. So what you recounted is really unusual.
 
boastinjesus:
No one believed in the Trinity before the council?
Did I state no one believed in the Trinity? You have missed the point all together. My point is that the church,not the Bible laid out the complexity of the Trinitarian doctrine,not the Bible. Now if you wish to deny a historical fact then that is your chioce,but still does not change history.
Matt. 22:29 Jesus says they are wrong because they don’t know the Scriptures (they were instead holding to tradition). Obviously, that’s because the Scriptures are the standard of authority about God.
Your interpretation is seriously flawed. Where does Matt 22:29 state the Bible-Alone is the final authority? Yes traditions not in-tune with God. Jesus is not saying the Bible-Only is the norm. Second,where does Jesus teach the scriptures are the standard of authority of God? Who have yet to show me where Jesus explicitly states the Bible-alone is the final authority.
So when you say “No. Jesus teaches that we’re accountable to God”, I’m not sure what your point is. Of course we’re accountable to God, but God reveals Himself to us through Scripture, and that doesn’t change the Bible verse I quoted and referenced.
My point is that Jesus is not stating that the Bible-Only is the final authority or we are accountable to the Bible. God is not pinned merely to a sacred text. So please show me where Jesus taught the Bible-Alone is the final authority?
 
Hey Nicea you said to boastinjesus:
Did I state no one believed in the Trinity? You have missed the point all together. My point is that the church,not the Bible laid out the complexity of the Trinitarian doctrine,not the Bible. Now if you wish to deny a historical fact then that is your chioce,but still does not change history.
I eventually learned, long ago, that the preceding is a historical fact among all protestant scholars. Heck, the first and second and third century Christians, if asked what the Trinity was, would not have known.
Where does Matt 22:29 state the Bible-Alone is the final authority?
It doesn’t.
Yes traditions not in-tune with God.
Which is not the case with apostolic tradition. It was this apostolic tradition that allowed the CC to determine the canon. Since all the apostles were deceased at the time the canon was decided, the CC had to rely on the apostolic tradition of their successors, therefore the bible must be an apostolic tradition of the CC which illustrates that oral tradition did not cease with the death of the last apostle. Other examples of apostolic tradition, that I would hope boastinjesus would maybe acknowledge:

The teachings on the Trinity, the hypostatic union (Jesus had a divine and human nature in one person), the filioque (that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son), and knowing, for example, that the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew.
Second,where does Jesus teach the scriptures are the standard of authority of God?
Nowhere…
Who have yet to show me where Jesus explicitly states the Bible-alone is the final authority.
There are no passages that explicitly or even implicitly claim that the Bible alone is the final authority. Much to my surprise, as a former Lutheran, no one embraced that notion until the reformation.
My point is that Jesus is not stating that the Bible-Only is the final authority or we are accountable to the Bible. God is not pinned merely to a sacred text.
👍

Another thing that occurred to me long ago:

Even if scripture was the Christians sole rule of faith, it relies solely on private interpretation because scripture cannot interpret scripture and that is not scriptural.
So please show me where Jesus taught the Bible-Alone is the final authority?
The best I could throw at you, as a former protestant, would have been, 2 Timothy and I was often too embarrassed to commit to it because it falls short for so many reasons.
 
Hey Nicea you said to boastinjesus:

I eventually learned, long ago, that the preceding is a historical fact among all protestant scholars. Heck, the first and second and third century Christians, if asked what the Trinity was, would not have known.

It doesn’t.

Which is not the case with apostolic tradition. It was this apostolic tradition that allowed the CC to determine the canon. Since all the apostles were deceased at the time the canon was decided, the CC had to rely on the apostolic tradition of their successors, therefore the bible must be an apostolic tradition of the CC which illustrates that oral tradition did not cease with the death of the last apostle. Other examples of apostolic tradition, that I would hope boastinjesus would maybe acknowledge:

The teachings on the Trinity, the hypostatic union (Jesus had a divine and human nature in one person), the filioque (that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son), and knowing, for example, that the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew.

Nowhere…

There are no passages that explicitly or even implicitly claim that the Bible alone is the final authority. Much to my surprise, as a former Lutheran, no one embraced that notion until the reformation.

👍

Another thing that occurred to me long ago:

Even if scripture was the Christians sole rule of faith, it relies solely on private interpretation because scripture cannot interpret scripture and that is not scriptural.

The best I could throw at you, as a former protestant, would have been, 2 Timothy and I was often too embarrassed to commit to it because it falls short for so many reasons.
Hey joe how is it going? Unfortunately many people fail to look outside the Bible. One of them being Christian history and the development of doctrines. God is not merely binded to written words or stated everything he said and did is binded to the Bible.
 
Yes, to speak words of comfort to the deceased’s family…not speak apologetics. So what you recounted is really unusual.
He spoke from John and that was in his introductory remarks. It certainly wasn’t his main point. The point I was trying to make was that there seems to be some diversity of doctrine within the RCC even to the point of who God used to write the gospels…
 
boastinjesus:

Your interpretation is seriously flawed. Where does Matt 22:29 state the Bible-Alone is the final authority? Yes traditions not in-tune with God.
Matthew 22:29 But Jesus answered them, "You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God…

They were clearly holding to an erroneous tradition. My point was that Jesus didn’t say that they were following the wrong tradition, the wrong teacher, or had left the one true church. He condemns them because they didn’t know the Scriptures. He pointed them to Scripture (and their lack of faith in the power of God). What part of that is seriously flawed?
 
Matthew 22:29 But Jesus answered them, "You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God…

They were clearly holding to an erroneous tradition. My point was that Jesus didn’t say that they were following the wrong tradition, the wrong teacher, or had left the one true church. He condemns them because they didn’t know the Scriptures. He pointed them to Scripture (and their lack of faith in the power of God). What part of that is seriously flawed?
Because Jesus is not teaching the Bible-alone,which is pure conjecture on your part. I’ll ask again:

Show me one verse where Jesus taught the scriptures are the final authority?

I find it at odds that if Jesus truly believed and taught the scriptures were the final authority,he never bothers once to teach it as “the” doctrine for nearly three years? More important,if Jesus believed the scriptures were the final authority,why doesn’t he bother to mention which books constituted scripture? Why did he not just instruct to write scripture,since it is the final authority?

Yes because they MISUNDERSTOOD the scriptures. Yes they were holding to traditions in contradiction to God…not the scriptures. God is above the scriptures,not vice versa. Do you worship a sacred text or God?

BTW: Christianity is a religion of the person: Jesus Christ. Christianity is NOT the religion of the book as Protestants make it out to be.
 
Nicea325;8489261]Hey joe how is it going?
Pretty good. 👍
Unfortunately many people fail to look outside the Bible. One of them being Christian history and the development of doctrines. God is not merely binded to written words or stated everything he said and did is binded to the Bible.
You are so right. 👍 I have often wondered how SS proponents can claim that scripture is the Christians final authority and in the same breath deny private interpretation of scripture. :confused::confused::confused:

The other one is: scripture interprets scripture. What does that even mean? How can a book interpret itself???:confused:
 
Pretty good. 👍
You are so right. 👍 I have often wondered how SS proponents can claim that scripture is the Christians final authority and in the same breath deny private interpretation of scripture. :confused::confused::confused:

The other one is: scripture interprets scripture. What does that even mean? How can a book interpret itself???:confused:

Maybe they mean in the way a Spanish/English dictionary interprets itself?
 
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