Who here is getting tired of the same old same old?

[archangel04]

How many times do we have members posting a certain traditional prefference or even liking, just to share with their borthers and sisters? And perhaps to even bring in other people who have probably never experience or heard of these traditional practices or even music. But then everytime, and I am not kidding here, we get the same comments “are you saying I am not Catholic enough because I go to the OF or because I preffer this practice or style of music?”
Or how somehow we are always suppose to add a “disclaimer” about how we can preffer a certain traditional practice, but I see OF and all the Eastern CCs equal as well. Why? I ask why must we always be put on the stand and defend ourselves and “prove” that although we may preffer a certain practice we see everything else in the Catholic Church as equal. I can undestand if somone says something like the TLM is the only true mass, then so be it argue all you want with them, but when someone post an opinion like what music they preffer we always get the same arguments over and over again. Frankly just makes us feel bad because we “hurt” other people’s feelings.

I know this might start a debate and frankly I don’t care, I’ve just gotten tired of feeling pushed around here and seeing other memebers being done the same.

 

[prettiefly]

Thank you, thank you for saying this - I have been thinking the very same thing.
We are not trying to put anyone down by saying we like the EF - we are just saying that we like the EF.

…
For stories of prayers answered through the intersession of St. Anthony, visit
saintanthonylostandfound.blogspot.com/

 

[PiousTemplar]

Because some people are over-sensitive.

 

[BVM_1221]

How many times do we have members posting a certain traditional prefference or even liking, just to share with their borthers and sisters? And perhaps to even bring in other people who have probably never experience or heard of these traditional practices or even music. But then everytime, and I am not kidding here, we get the same comments “are you saying I am not Catholic enough because I go to the OF or because I preffer this practice or style of music?”
Or how somehow we are always suppose to add a “disclaimer” about how we can preffer a certain traditional practice, but I see OF and all the Eastern CCs equal as well. Why? I ask why must we always be put on the stand and defend ourselves and “prove” that although we may preffer a certain practice we see everything else in the Catholic Church as equal. I can undestand if somone says something like the TLM is the only true mass, then so be it argue all you want with them, but when someone post an opinion like what music they preffer we always get the same arguments over and over again. Frankly just makes us feel bad because we “hurt” other people’s feelings.

I know this might start a debate and frankly I don’t care, I’ve just gotten tired of feeling pushed around here and seeing other memebers being done the same.

We have a lot of that in AA as well. One-upmmanship. “I am better then you are because…” or even “I am holier then thou because…” followed by whatever reason comes along. Holier then thou because I prefer TLM to NO. I do the entire LOTH, not just MP and EP, I pray a 20 decade rosary per day. I go to confession once a week. Gosh wow, there are many ways to puff up your ego with Spiritual Pride. And THAT is the danger.

 

[Godfollower]

How many times do we have members posting a certain traditional prefference or even liking, just to share with their borthers and sisters? And perhaps to even bring in other people who have probably never experience or heard of these traditional practices or even music. But then everytime, and I am not kidding here, we get the same comments “are you saying I am not Catholic enough because I go to the OF or because I preffer this practice or style of music?”
Or how somehow we are always suppose to add a “disclaimer” about how we can preffer a certain traditional practice, but I see OF and all the Eastern CCs equal as well. Why? I ask why must we always be put on the stand and defend ourselves and “prove” that although we may preffer a certain practice we see everything else in the Catholic Church as equal. I can undestand if somone says something like the TLM is the only true mass, then so be it argue all you want with them, but when someone post an opinion like what music they preffer we always get the same arguments over and over again. Frankly just makes us feel bad because we “hurt” other people’s feelings.

I know this might start a debate and frankly I don’t care, I’ve just gotten tired of feeling pushed around here and seeing other memebers being done the same.

A real Catholic wouldn’t feel this way.

 

[Nowhere_Man]

I couldn’t agree more, Archangel04. There’s a reason it’s called the traditional Catholicism section. If you staunchly prefer the OF Mass, why come in hear unless you have a genuine interest in the EF? You’ll just cause more fights that most of us, myself most certainly included, are tired of. (It’s against forum rules to pit Forms of Mass against each other anyway.) Preference for the EF, Latin, Gregorian Chant, etc. is perfectly valid. As the OP said, almost no one on here that I’ve seen thinks that they’re more holy or a better Catholic because they attend the EF.

However, they may say they feel closer to God because they do, but that is because they are doing something that better edifies their relationship with God; that is perfectly acceptable and encouraged by the Church. If it weren’t, we wouldn’t have Eastern Rites and other sui iuris churches; we would all be one rite with one form of Mass if we weren’t allowed to have different approaches to spirituality, but that’s not the case.

So, if you like the OF and more contemporary forms of music, that’s great! If you prefer the EF and Gregorian chant, that’s also great! If you prefer an Eastern Rite, that’s great too! Do what makes you feel closer to God, so long as the Church okays it. I think that’s one aspect of what makes the Church truly universal: that we are allowed to have different customs, approaches to prayer, theology, and spirituality, but we all hold and profess the same beliefs.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

How many times do we have members posting a certain traditional prefference or even liking, just to share with their borthers and sisters? And perhaps to even bring in other people who have probably never experience or heard of these traditional practices or even music. But then everytime, and I am not kidding here, we get the same comments “are you saying I am not Catholic enough because I go to the OF or because I preffer this practice or style of music?”

Well, it’s a good question to ask, and the Catholic who asked the question is not in error. When you get a group of people exclaiming with all their might that the practices they follow are “more reverent”, you are necessarily arguing that anyone who worships or dresses differently is less holier than you. Will a chapel veil lead you to Heaven? Can anyone point to me the chapter and verse where Jesus makes such statement? You can’t for the simple fact it’s not there. But explicitly and implicitly, it’s made out on these forums that anyone who wears a chapel veil is worshiping God more correctly, and ergo, is on a first-class trip to Heaven. I have seen and heard of people dealing with sins such as premarital intercourse, alcoholism, and the like, who are concerning themselves with wearing a chapel veil. Which do you think is more important - combating your sins of the flesh, or what headpiece you are going to take to Mass next Sunday? Of which is outlined in both Church teaching and the Bible as leading one to eternal damnation?

Or how somehow we are always suppose to add a “disclaimer” about how we can preffer a certain traditional practice, but I see OF and all the Eastern CCs equal as well. Why? I ask why must we always be put on the stand and defend ourselves and “prove” that although we may preffer a certain practice we see everything else in the Catholic Church as equal. I can undestand if somone says something like the TLM is the only true mass, then so be it argue all you want with them, but when someone post an opinion like what music they preffer we always get the same arguments over and over again. Frankly just makes us feel bad because we “hurt” other people’s feelings.

A disclaimer is always helpful. It sets out the tone for the thread that the OP will not be tolerating people with pride putting others down. The attitude I have seen has left me in nothing more than pure disgust. I recall reading a Catholic news website a few days ago discussing about Pope John Paul II’s beatification, and I saw a ‘traditional’ Catholic arguing with what amounts to virtual gibberish that Pope John Paul II did not deserve a beatification and was a great sinner because of XYZ. Which comes as no surprise - many ‘traditionalists’ have some kind of attraction towards Hell. They make bold assertions that most of Humanity is going to Hell (something not supported in the bible at all!) and even coming up with frightening statistics such as “3 out of 15000 are saved”. The sad irony is that such belief will lead one to Hell as it is a sin of despair - the unforgivable sin that Jesus talks about: Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Generally speaking, I’m wary about many Catholics who consider themselves “traditional”. I don’t see a lot I can learn from them. I’m interested in how I can make the world a better place; how I can make myself a better person. I’m not interested in Latin, chapel veils, suits, or anything of the sort, and the Bible suggests that God feels the same way. Latin won’t save you.

 

[At_Trent]

But most are going to Hell.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

I couldn’t agree more, Archangel04. There’s a reason it’s called the traditional Catholicism section. If you staunchly prefer the OF Mass, why come in hear unless you have a genuine interest in the EF? You’ll just cause more fights that most of us, myself most certainly included, are tired of. (It’s against forum rules to pit Forms of Mass against each other anyway.) Preference for the EF, Latin, Gregorian Chant, etc. is perfectly valid. As the OP said, almost no one on here that I’ve seen thinks that they’re more holy or a better Catholic because they attend the EF.

I don’t ‘‘prefer’’ any kind of Mass - Mass is there to worship God, it’s not a football match where you go to show your support for a team. It just so happens that I attend an OF mass, and I’m happy with it. If I lived near a parish where the EF was taking place, I’d go to that as well. Just so long as I’m able to receive the Eucharist, then I’m happy. Everything else is secondary in my opinion

As for this being the “traditional Catholicism” section, it would be great if the exclusive attitude could remain on this section alone. The only problem is that it has been spilling on to other sections such as Spirituality.

So, if you like the OF and more contemporary forms of music, that’s great! If you prefer the EF and Gregorian chant, that’s also great! If you prefer an Eastern Rite, that’s great too! Do what makes you feel closer to God, so long as the Church okays it. I think that’s one aspect of what makes the Church truly universal: that we are allowed to have different customs, approaches to prayer, theology, and spirituality, but we all hold and profess the same beliefs.

What do you mean by “more contemporary music”? I’m not good at explaining music at all, so please explain. We don’t have drums, guitars and the like here in our OF masses, but then again, I’m not American .

 

[rben20]

It’s so true Archangel. Thank you for speaking what I am sure so many have thought but have just kept it inside including myself. I am tired of having to give my whole background so that people don’t jump to conclusions (which doesn’t stop them from doing that anyways) or mention anything about traditional Roman practice without hearing if it’s done in another tradition why not in the Roman?(Franciscans, eastern Catholics) Some people just don’t get that people can prefer the EF of the Mass and everything that comes ancient in the Roman tradition.

Well, it’s a good question to ask, and the Catholic who asked the question is not in error.

Funny you say this Bohm. Catholics who prefer the EF normally never ask such questions to the OF crowd. I could never imagine myself asking someone who prefers the OF “what are you saying? I’m against the Church and not with the times? Are you saying I’m an extremist, sedevacantist or stuffy just because I like tradition and the EF? Are you saying I don’t accept Vatican II?” It doesn’t sound right because in truth all these accusations are only one way. Those who prefer the EF are always on the DEFENSIVE because somehow OF church goers feel on edge. By the same logic though I am not in error and it’s a good question to ask…yea right, it’s simply not needed because it’s a loaded question. You don’t ask those kinds of questions…

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

But most are going to Hell.

We don’t know for sure. At the very most, we can only be agnostic about the issue. To suggest “most are going to Hell” would be to suggest that 50%+ are going to Hell. That however is to claim knowledge that only God knows. It’s a form of spiritual pride. Nowhere in Church teaching does it put a statistic or an implicit statistic (e.g. “majority”) on Humanity. The Church doesn’t declare anyone to be in Hell (even Stalin!), but merely says that those who die in a state of mortal sin not confessed perfectly contritely or through Confession will go to Hell.

Many people on this forum love to quote the private revelation of saints to support their viewpoint. But the only problem is that they are called “private revelation” for a reason - they are not binding on the faithful, and in many instances are even open to error. Indeed, St. Catherine of Siena said the Immaculate Conception was not real. St. Therese of Lisieux is reported to have claimed Hell was empty. St. Faustina had her Diary which emphasized the vastness of God’s Mercy. If we are to use the private revelation of the saints, we can’t just cherrypick a few to support a viewpoint and an ulterior motive. That’s called bias. We have to consider the whole lot, and it seems that there are falsehoods and different interpretations within the realm of private revelation concerning the afterlife, which is more indicative of the opinions of the saints than genuine divine revelation from God.

What about the Bible? Again, it doesn’t say so specifically. Verses such as “…] For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it” (Matthew 7:13) are open up to interpretation. The use of the word “many” could also include 1 person. Indeed, 1 person going to Hell is too much for God, which is an interpretation perfectly and numerically aligned with other verses such as this: "I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent (Luke 15:7). Elsewhere, the Bible even writes that only 1/3 of the angels rebelled against God and became demons. That leaves 2/3 (a bigger figure) of the angels who managed to remain with God. You could easily apply the same statistical logic to humanity if you so wished to do so.

One can only be agnostic about this issue, and entrust all of Humanity to God’s mercy.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

Funny you say this Bohm. Catholics who prefer the EF normally never ask such questions to the OF crowd. I could never imagine myself asking someone who prefers the OF “what are you saying? I’m against the Church and not with the times? Are you saying I’m an extremist, sedevacantist or stuffy just because I like tradition and the EF? Are you saying I don’t accept Vatican II?” It doesn’t sound right because in truth all these accusations are only one way. Those who prefer the EF are always on the DEFENSIVE because somehow OF church goers feel on edge. By the same logic though I am not in error and it’s a good question to ask…yea right, it’s simply not needed because it’s a loaded question. You don’t ask those kinds of questions…

The only problem with your analogy is that you’re presupposing that those who attend the OF declare themselves as holier than those who attend the EF.

I’ve never seen a person who attends the OF consider their Mass “more reverent” because it’s in the vernacular or for XYZ reason. But such attitude is easily displayed on these forums by those who attend the EF - “I wear a chapel veil because it’s more ‘reverent’, and I want it to be more widespread like before”, or “the Mass is in Latin, and it’s more ‘reverent’”, etc. Those who attend the OF do not create Youtube videos, start threads or write blogs putting other Catholics down for what is equally appropriate worship. They are not obsessed on external forms of piety that has absolutely 0 value when God’s judgement arrives. Indeed, it’s harder to be a good person internally than it is to be a good person externally:

“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.” (Matthew 6:5-6)

 

[choliks]

Those who prefer the EF are always on the DEFENSIVE because somehow OF church goers feel on edge.

I’m not here to argue.

Actually, Catholics who prefer the OF ask those questions because they’re defensive as well (see Bohm’s first few lines in his post). What seems to be the “Holier-Than-Thou” attitude projected by some of the traditionalists are intimidating to those (including me) who are not. That’s why most of them are on the edge.

And I agree with this…
Bohm Bawerk:

I don’t ‘‘prefer’’ any kind of Mass - Mass is there to worship God, it’s not a football match where you go to show your support for a team. It just so happens that I attend an OF mass, and I’m happy with it. If I lived near a parish where the EF was taking place, I’d go to that as well. Just so long as I’m able to receive the Eucharist, then I’m happy. Everything else is secondary in my opinion

 

[tee_eff_em]

I couldn’t agree more, Archangel04. There’s a reason it’s called the traditional Catholicism section. If you staunchly prefer the OF Mass, why come in hear unless you have a genuine interest in the EF?

Tradition encompasses more than a particular expression of the Liturgy, no?

tee

 

[ProVobis]

Latin won’t save you.

It will if it takes your mind away from sin. In this respect, so can math or physics (save you).

 

[Cider]

Totally sick of it to the point that I have been limiting my postings. All the defensiveness is tiring. In fact I’ve put some posters on ignore because all they do is run around this forum whining about the EF and trads

 

[malphono]

Totally sick of it to the point that I have been limiting my postings.

That sums it up nicely for me, too.

 

[Melchior_1]

A lot of people feel strongly about certain things, and when they see that what they feel strongly about is getting slammed they will likely not be too happy about it.

For me, it’s traditional Catholics who think traditionalism is the only way towards Tradition. This bothers me and I feel the attitude is wrong, so I’m likely goign to post on that topic. For others it could be “the OF is never as reverent as the EF”, misquoting Popes, and generally thinking that the Roman Rite is the only Rite.

A whole bunch of reasons, really.

 

[Seamus_L]

Alot of people will be subconsciously offended by the fact that you drive 10-20 miles to a Latin Mass, bypassing several closer Catholic churches along the way. To many of them, you just said “They’re not good enough for me”. To them I’ll just have to take the easy route and respond by saying “You just don’t understand how we feel about the Latin Mass”

 

[TimothyH]

How many times do we have members posting a certain traditional prefference or even liking, just to share with their borthers and sisters? And perhaps to even bring in other people who have probably never experience or heard of these traditional practices or even music. But then everytime, and I am not kidding here, we get the same comments “are you saying I am not Catholic enough because I go to the OF or because I preffer this practice or style of music?”
Or how somehow we are always suppose to add a “disclaimer” about how we can preffer a certain traditional practice, but I see OF and all the Eastern CCs equal as well. Why? I ask why must we always be put on the stand and defend ourselves and “prove” that although we may preffer a certain practice we see everything else in the Catholic Church as equal. I can undestand if somone says something like the TLM is the only true mass, then so be it argue all you want with them, but when someone post an opinion like what music they preffer we always get the same arguments over and over again. Frankly just makes us feel bad because we “hurt” other people’s feelings.

I know this might start a debate and frankly I don’t care, I’ve just gotten tired of feeling pushed around here and seeing other memebers being done the same.

Remember that the sword cuts both ways.

The big problem is when some start demanding that the sacraments and worship be provided to them according to their preference, as if the Church was here to serve them.

-Tim-