Who is a member of the Body of Christ?

[Barricade]

Partly because membership and communion are different things. Much like you can be a formal member of a political party, but reject a portion of their platform.

But they’re not totally unrelated. Full communion = membership, No communion = non-membership. It’s quite different from being a member of a political party though; the Church demands full acceptance of its doctrines (its platform in your analogy) and to rebel, and reject even one point of doctrine (or one point of the platform) deprives one of membership. For the political party, acceptance of the entire platform is not a requirement for membership.

For one, baptism provides graces that are not available to the unbaptized.

Seems to me that in order to answer these last two questions, a much clearer definition of “member” and “communion”, as they apply to Church teaching, is required. What do you think each means in this context?

But ultimately, for someone who remains outside of full communion how is partial communion even a meaningful concept for their salvation? The Church already teaches that someone in no communion whatsoever can potentially be saved. But in the case of their baptism, Pope Eugene IV stated in Cantate Domino that only in the unity of the Church are the sacraments of benefit to salvation.

To quote again here: “It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

Well to address your last question it’s rather confusing to me because my long-time understanding of this topic is that one is either inside the Church or outside the Church, that the lights are either on, or off. I guess I’ll have to do some more reading and see what other documents deal with this issue.

 

[davidv]

But they’re not totally unrelated. Full communion = membership, No communion = non-membership. It’s quite different from being a member of a political party though; the Church demands full acceptance of its doctrines (its platform in your analogy) and to rebel, and reject even one point of doctrine (or one point of the platform) deprives one of membership. For the political party, acceptance of the entire platform is not a requirement for membership.

But ultimately, for someone who remains outside of full communion how is partial communion even a meaningful concept for their salvation? The Church already teaches that someone in no communion whatsoever can potentially be saved. But in the case of their baptism, Pope Eugene IV stated in Cantate Domino that only in the unity of the Church are the sacraments of benefit to salvation.

To quote again here: “It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

Well to address your last question it’s rather confusing to me because my long-time understanding of this topic is that one is either inside the Church or outside the Church, that the lights are either on, or off. I guess I’ll have to do some more reading and see what other documents deal with this issue.

The statements from the catechism show that the “lights are either on, or off” is not the correct analogy.

 

[Karen107]

Actually: I am trying to understand the Catholic understanding of the Body of Christ

FYI
my understanding of the Reformed view is:
Every true believer is in the Body of Christ
there are no unbelievers in the Body of Christ.

Pardon me for I don’t understand. Whose reformed view?

If it were that no unbelievers would belong the body of Christ, what of the infant and children who have not come to belief yet? Would our prayers for them be for naught because they didn’t believe? That’s a pretty hard nosed view if you ask me

The Body of Christ is the Church… Those who are baptized into the Church and those saved brought into the Body (the boat) because of the mercy of God. There can be no separation of the body of Christ, the Church… Because we will be glorified as a Resurrected Body in union with Jesus who is the head of the Body (the Church).

 

[Karen107]

:ehh: I’m picking that ol’ Eugene is still doing a few years in Purgatory for a dumb statement like that.

In all sincerity… There may be souls in purgatory because they lived their life rejecting what God has to offer. These souls we need to pray for so they will be lifted up to fullness of Our Lord and all He has to offer beyond heaven’s door…

 

[Genesis315]

The statements from the catechism show that the “lights are either on, or off” is not the correct analogy.

As for being in the state of grace, they are either on or off and as for being a member of the Church (aka defined as being fully incorporated), they are either on or off. But we can speak of other relationships with the Church that admit of degrees, and the concept of communion is useful for this. Cardinal Ratzinger discusses this in an address in 2001 to a pastoral congress in Aversa, Italy.

Membership is simply communion in all those things necessary for membership (baptism, orthodox faith, hierarchical obedience). If one or more of these things are lacking, then the person is not a member–but if there is say, just baptism, then we can still speak of partial communion.

It should also be noted that full membership is not absolutely necessary for one to “belong” to the Church and be in the state of grace. And since those elements of partial communion properly belong to the Church, it is through them that someone in good faith may be sanctified.

 

[Genesis315]

Well of course no one can erase or undo their baptism, when the stain of original sin is washed away, it can’t come back a second time. So in that sense people can’t cut themselves off so much so that they regain original sin as if they had not been baptized. If an apostate returns to the faith there is no necessity for re-baptism for example.

However, it seems confusing that an anti-Catholic atheist who was baptized as a child has partial communion in the scenario you pose but a Protestant Christian who did not receive baptism because their denomination did not believe in its necessity would not be in partial communion despite believing supernatural truths of Christianity that the atheists rejects.

In what I’ve quoted from your post here it seems awfully confusing, I don’t know how else to phrase these scenarios than to say that seemingly someone can be both inside and outside of the Church at the same time. How can one be deprived of membership but still be in partial communion? And if they are, what difference does partial communion make? For the baptized Catholic turned heretic or apostate are they in the body of Christ, ie a member of the Church or are they not? Surely it can’t be both?

There are various relationships one can have with the Church. Membership is one such specific relationship, but it is not the only one. As I mentioned in my post responding to davidv, membership is an either/or but communion can be spoken of in degrees. Here’s what St. Augustine says:
St. Augustine:

For in all points in which they think with us, they also are in communion with us, and only are severed from us in those points in which they dissent from us.​

But if they observe some of the same things, in respect of these they have not severed themselves; and so far they are still a part of the framework of the Church, while in all other respects they are cut off from it. Accordingly, any one whom they have associated with themselves is united to the Church in all those points in which they are not separated from it. And therefore, if he wish to come over to the Church, he is made sound in those points in which he was unsound and went astray; but where he was sound in union with the Church, he is not cured, but recognized—lest in desiring to cure what is sound we should rather inflict a wound.

newadvent.org/fathers/14081.htm

Membership is communion in specific elements: baptism, profession of faith, and hierarchical obedience.

If communion is in less than these elements, then membership is lacking completely and communion is lacking to a degree.

Baptism, however, is the foundation of this communion because by it, not only is original sin erased, but by it we are incorporated into Christ. Full incorporation is to be equated with membership in the Church.

The concept of partial communion is important for the reason St. Augustine provided. Being in partial communion is also important because it means one is partaking of at least some of the means of salvation entrusted to the Church, which, if received in good faith, can be salvific.

But even for the unbaptized there is the concept of belonging “in voto.” I wish Fr. Hardon’s dissertation on St. Robert Bellarmine ecclesiology was still online as it had a good discussion of these different concepts (Hardon’s thesis director was Fr. Sebastian Tromp, who was the ghostwriter for Mystici Corporis).

 

[steve_b]

Respectfully I disagree, even partial truths will show fruit. If they didn’t we would never have the ability to move to the truth.

Here’s a BIG truth

Deliberately missing mass (the Eucharist, the Body and Blood of Christ) on Sunday is a mortal sin. The consequences to one’s souls is Disasterous

here’s Why

Heb 10: (all emphasis mine)
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. 26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27* but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28* A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29* How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

Using Heb 10, what are they doing when they meet together?

they are celebrating the Eucharist.

And

• as one can see it’s already a (mortal) grave sin to deliberately not meet together on the Day,(Sunday) for the Eucharist. Evidenced by the judgement and consequences described in Heb 10.

Consequences for deliberately missing the Eucharist on Sunday (quoting from Heb 10)

• there is no sacrifice for sins for THEM who deliberately don’t meet for mass on on Sunday
• THEY spurn the Son of God by deliberately not meeting fpr mass on Sunday
• THEY profane the blood of the covenant by deliberately not meeting for mass on Sunday
• THEY outrage the spirit of grace by deliberately not meeting for mass on Sunday
  
  Because,

after receiving the knowledge of the truth, of the mass, THEY are deliberately not participating in the celebration of the Eucharist on Sunday. The sin is huge, the consequences to one’s soul is huge, and we are being warned of it in the most graphic terms.

Scripturally speaking

• The Eucharist John 6:56-69 instituted by ***God the Son,

---

• Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.(i.e. this is sacrifice for sin)
• Mark 14:24 And HE said to them: This is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many. (as in sacrifice for sin)
• Luke 22:20 In like manner the chalice also, after HE had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.
• 1 Corinthians 11:25 In like manner also the chalice, after HE had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.
• The Day, = Sunday, the Lord’s day. See The Didache (c. 100) ch 14.1 “on the day of resurrection”, Ignatius ** Epistle to the Magnesians , ch 9 Lord’s day is resurrection day., Justin Martyr,First Apology ** , ch 66 & 67, Eucharist, & Sunday is the Day we hold our common assembly it is the 1st day of week, the Day our Lord resurrected
  
  Heb 10, describes the Eucharist and when one deliberately doesn’t celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday, those consequences mentioned in Heb 10, are the realities and results for that person’s soul. This is also why Sunday is a holy day of obligation.

 

[Karen107]

Here’s a BIG truth

Deliberately missing mass (the Eucharist, the Body and Blood of Christ) on Sunday is a mortal sin. The consequences to one’s souls is Disasterous

here’s Why…deleted content to make the post shorter…

Because,

after receiving the knowledge of the truth, of the mass, THEY are deliberately not participating in the celebration of the Eucharist on Sunday. The sin is huge, the consequences to one’s soul is huge, and we are being warned of it in the most graphic terms.

Scripturally speaking

• The Eucharist John 6:56-69 instituted by ***God the Son,

---

• Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.(i.e. this is sacrifice for sin)
• Mark 14:24 And HE said to them: This is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many. (as in sacrifice for sin)
• Luke 22:20 In like manner the chalice also, after HE had supped, saying: This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.
• 1 Corinthians 11:25 In like manner also the chalice, after HE had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me.
• The Day, = Sunday, the Lord’s day. See The Didache (c. 100) ch 14.1 “on the day of resurrection”, Ignatius ** Epistle to the Magnesians , ch 9 Lord’s day is resurrection day., Justin Martyr,First Apology** , ch 66 & 67, Eucharist, & Sunday is the Day we hold our common assembly it is the 1st day of week, the Day our Lord resurrected
  
  Heb 10, describes the Eucharist and when one deliberately doesn’t celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday, those consequences mentioned in Heb 10, are the realities and results for that person’s soul. This is also why Sunday is a holy day of obligation.

Respectfully, you are speaking to practicing Catholics not those who don’t know the CCC… We can’t love what we don’t know and we can’t live what we don’t know. I would say that those who know these things have to live up to them moreso than those who don’t. To those who have much, much will be required so now what is mortal sin? Well lets look at the catechism.

CCC 1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

Now if a person isn’t aware that missing Sunday mass is a mortal sin how can they be held accountable to it? We’re not speaking of those who have knowledge of truth but those who don’t know Jesus or the Church teaching. We must admit that many people haven’t been properly catechized in their youth and go away not really knowing truth.

This is what Jesus said on those who don’t know the masters will and that beating speaks of purgatory.

Luke 12:47 "The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

That’s why we are the ones who are responsible for sharing our faith with others and if we don’t than really who is to blame if they don’t know? Really who is to blame if Jesus is not known by others because we haven’t shared Gods Word? God who is just sees all this and decides our fate. This is how I understand it and for the record I’m glad you’re sharing what you know… Amen!
Peace be to you…

 

[steve_b]

Respectfully, you are speaking to practicing Catholics not those who don’t know the CCC…

Respectfully,

• I didn’t even mention the CCC, though I could have
• I focused on scripture with that answer

It also shows why Jesus wants everyone to be a Catholic, in His Church
K:

We can’t love what we don’t know and we can’t live what we don’t know.

True

That’s why Peter said education is 2nd on his list of 7 things to add to our faith in ever increasing amounts, so we aren’t ineffective and fail
2 Peter 1:5-10
K:

I would say that those who know these things have to live up to them moreso than those who don’t.

that’s why the passage I quoted stressed in Heb 10:

"after receiving the knowledge of the truth,"

we need to know our faith, because we can’t pass on what we don’t have ourselves. After receiving knowledge we are to pass it on evangelizing others. If one chooses to reject that knowledge, then that’s on them.

As the CCC puts it

ignorance isn’t always innocent. [1791 (Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 1791)

especially given how easy and readily information is accessible today.
K:

To those who have much, much will be required so now what is mortal sin? Well lets look at the catechism.

CCC 1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”

Mortal sin is a cinch to commit.

For example, I’m just using this as an example

If for instance, I show a person who is gay, this following passage from scripture on sexual sins

1 Corinthians 6: 9 - 10 no sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders ἀρσενοκοῖται]10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God

1. • is homosexual activity (as in same sex sexually active ) a mortal sin or a venial sin? Just look at the consequence. No person doing that “will inherit the kingdom of God” , i.e. they will go to hell if they die in that sin. Can’t get any worse than that…nor clearer…right? So it’s a mortal sin
   • Therefore, they see the prohibition on the act, they see the consequences for the activity, they know it’s a mortal sin. Doesn’t matter if they disagree, it is a mortal sin to commit the act.
   • Assuming No one puts a gun to their head, iow, they freely give their consent to engage in the act, then they commit a mortal sin
   K:
   

   Now if a person isn’t aware that missing Sunday mass is a mortal sin how can they be held accountable to it?

   That’s why they have to be shown why it is a mortal sin
   
   Let’s remember what the passage I quoted said
   
   "after receiving the knowledge of the truth,"
   
   That means the person is no longer ignorant of the facts. They are now culpable when deliberately missing mass.
   K:
   

   We’re not speaking of those who have knowledge of truth but those who don’t know Jesus or the Church teaching. We must admit that many people haven’t been properly catechized in their youth and go away not really knowing truth.

   That’s why Catholics are to evangelize every chance we get, particularly with Catholics
   
   The importance of educating people when and wherever we see the need, is an old teaching that has consequence as well if we neglect to do our part…
   
   Ezechiel (Ezeckiel) 3:17-21
   
   Bringing that forward to today, we have the scriptures, Tradition, and the Church that inform us what God wants the world to know… We need to know and teach that to everyone who will listen
   
   There’s no expiration date to that
   K:
   

   This is what Jesus said on those who don’t know the masters will and that beating speaks of purgatory.
   
   Luke 12:47 "The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

   Just like the passage from Ezeckiel… right?
   K:
   

   That’s why we are the ones who are responsible for sharing our faith with others and if we don’t than really who is to blame if they don’t know? Really who is to blame if Jesus is not known by others because we haven’t shared Gods Word? God who is just sees all this and decides our fate. This is how I understand it and for the record I’m glad you’re sharing what you know… Amen!
   Peace be to you…

   Thanks
   
   Just trying to put faith to work

 

[Karen107]

Steve respectfully some of this is getting off base… I must say again you’re speaking about practicing Catholics which is not who this poster is referring to, that is the point. A person must know that their behavior is sinful in order to be considered mortal sin. That’s the problem with todays society, whatever seems right is deemed to be okay and they judge themselves by the standards of the world. We know differently as ‘practicing’ Catholics because we have been taught right from wrong and have a moral conscience based on Gods truths. Mentioning that missing Sunday Mass is probably not something that the fallen away even knows is a mortal sin.

Now I would suffice to say that many baptized Christians do live their lives a rightful way, moreso than many Catholics. Therefore when talking about the ‘body of Christ’, they are one with us because of their baptism. As the previous posters said, even partially, they are joined to us in faith as our brothers and sisters in Christ, many of whom know Jesus better than many Catholics… So who really has some growing in faith to do? Each person whether they belong to the Church or not.

 

[Karen107]

Hi Barricade,

Pope Pious X addressed this issue in his catechism. The catechism talks about two aspects of the Church: the soul of the Church and the body of the Church.

21 Q: What is the constitution of the Church of Jesus Christ?
A: The Church of Jesus Christ has been constituted as a true and perfect Society; and in her we can distinguish a soul and a body.
22 Q: In what does the Soul of the Church consist?
A: The Soul of the Church consists in her internal and spiritual endowments, that is, faith, hope, charity, the gifts of grace and of the Holy Ghost, together with all the heavenly treasures which are hers through the merits of our Redeemer, Jesus Christ, and of the Saints.
23 Q: In what does the Body of the Church consist?
A: The Body of the Church consists in her external and visible aspect, that is, in the association of her members, in her worship, in her teaching-power and in her external rule and government.

29 Q: But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved?
A: If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God’s will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation

Note that one need not be baptised, or even be Christian, to be a member of the soul of the Church, the Body of Christ. If a person isn’t aware of Baptism, but has the ‘implicit’ desire of Baptism, he is included. Pope John Paul II explained it further:

Normally, “it will be in the sincere practice of what is good in their own religious traditions and by following the dictates of their own conscience that the members of other religions respond positively to God’s invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even while they do not recognize or acknowledge him as their Saviour (cf. Ad gentes, nn. 3, 9, 11)” (Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue – Congregation for the Evangelization of Peoples, Instruction Dialogue and Proclamation, 19 May 1991, n. 29; L’Osservatore Romano English edition, 1 July 1991, p. III).

To sum it up, everyone who is in Heaven is a member of the Body of Christ. Everyone, not just Christians, who truly seeks God and lives his life accordingly is a member of the Body of Christ and receives salvation in Jesus Christ, thus Heaven.

Xuan

 

[Karen107]

There are various relationships one can have with the Church. Membership is one such specific relationship, but it is not the only one. As I mentioned in my post responding to davidv, membership is an either/or but communion can be spoken of in degrees. Here’s what St. Augustine says:

newadvent.org/fathers/14081.htm

Membership is communion in specific elements: baptism, profession of faith, and hierarchical obedience.

If communion is in less than these elements, then membership is lacking completely and communion is lacking to a degree.

Baptism, however, is the foundation of this communion because by it, not only is original sin erased, but by it we are incorporated into Christ. Full incorporation is to be equated with membership in the Church.

The concept of partial communion is important for the reason St. Augustine provided. Being in partial communion is also important because it means one is partaking of at least some of the means of salvation entrusted to the Church, which, if received in good faith, can be salvific.

But even for the unbaptized there is the concept of belonging “in voto.” I wish Fr. Hardon’s dissertation on St. Robert Bellarmine ecclesiology was still online as it had a good discussion of these different concepts (Hardon’s thesis director was Fr. Sebastian Tromp, who was the ghostwriter for Mystici Corporis).

 

[steve_b]

Steve respectfully some of this is getting off base…

A person must know that their behavior is sinful in order to be considered mortal sin.

the “body of Christ” = the Church
The" body of Christ" = Eucharist. Which is the sense I was using it in #27 .

If someone is truly ignorant of either fact, then we inform them of that, …right?.
K:

That’s the problem with todays society, whatever seems right is deemed to be okay and they judge themselves by the standards of the world. We know differently as ‘practicing’ Catholics because we have been taught right from wrong and have a moral conscience based on Gods truths.

True
K:

Mentioning that missing Sunday Mass is probably not something that the fallen away even knows is a mortal sin.

So we inform them. We shouldn’t be timid about it. I talked to a lapsed Catholic who hasn’t been to mass in 50 years. I gave him that explanation I posted #27 . After that, I let the HS work on him. But at least he knows now even if he doesn’t take the advice.

Also, this is really an important point

The CCC says, one’s ignorance isn’t always presumed innocent 1791 . I would suggest too many Catholics remain quiet because they “THINK” or have been criticized that to say something is viewed as “judging” another person. Or it’s not being “nice”.

Note the next passage from Ezekiel. When we know what’s right and we see what’s wrong, and remain quiet, God holds us responsible as well for the other person’s sin. (it’s called the sin of omission) and we can also be guilty of co-mission as well

For example

Ez 3:
18 If I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ and you give him no warning, nor speak to warn the wicked from his wicked way, in order to save his life, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at your hand. 19 But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you will have saved your life. 20 Again, if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die; because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. 21 Nevertheless if you warn the righteous man not to sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning; and you will have saved your life.”

That has no expiration to it.
K:

Now I would suffice to say that many baptized Christians do live their lives a rightful way, moreso than many Catholics. Therefore when talking about the ‘body of Christ’, they are one with us because of their baptism.

Baptism is a beginning. It is not a be all to end all sacrament. Once mortal sin has been committed, one has lost sanctifying grace working in them. If one only had to say they are sorry to God and that was enough to restore sanctifying grace and reconciliation, then God would have never needed to give us the sacrament of reconciliation.

To be specific, John says he doesn’t recommend just praying for mortal sin for forgiveness. It’s okay for forgiveness of non mortal sin but not for mortal sin ,1 John 5:16 , that’s a huge distinction and a huge problem for non Catholics

Some advantages being Catholic, regarding contrition and forgiveness of grave sins.
The “if” conditions are answered. 1452 , 1457 . bringing the “body of Christ” in the other sense, back into full communion again.
K:

As the previous posters said, *even partially, they are joined to us *in faith as our brothers and sisters in Christ, many of whom know Jesus better than many Catholics… So who really has some growing in faith to do? Each person whether they belong to the Church or not.

(all emphasis mine)

“the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him…our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those **should be **fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God.” 816 ,

Note: the Church is teaching full incorporation is necessary not the minimum.

Fully incorporated into the Church (the body of Christ) are 837

Note: that ALL should be fully incorporated into the Church, **(**not partially, not just a little bit) but fully incorporated.

Otherwise why be or stay Catholic? Just join some group of what’s happening now, and everything is fine. Which is NOT what the Church has ever taught.

For example, was it OK to be in Arianism, Pelagianism, Montanism, Nestorianism, or any of the Great Heresies , in history ? They are ALL, as in every one of them, “baptized”. Is that enough? Is being in their camp okay? No

 

[Karen107]

True

So we inform them. We shouldn’t be timid about it. I talked to a lapsed Catholic who hasn’t been to mass in 50 years. I gave him that explanation I posted #27 . After that, I let the HS work on him. But at least he knows now even if he doesn’t take the advice.
(all emphasis mine)

“the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him…our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those **should be **fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God.” 816 ,

Steve think outside of the box for one moment… The Church is the ‘mystical body of Christ… Meaning, it goes beyond what we know as the Church on earth… ’ on earth’ being key… There is also a Church in heaven…Those are the ones who are already dead but their souls live on… Now it is up to Jesus who is the ‘gate’, to let anyone He wants to into heaven and those souls will be glorified at the end of time as in communion with God/Jesus as one ‘glorified’ Body of Christ… Now that’s not the ‘on earth’ Church, but the heavenly Church… This is a divine mystery but what we do know for sure is that Baptism is the key to entering eternal life because it incorporates us into Christ…So then knowing that, who is to say that these folks who have been baptized Christian will not be one with the Body of Christ in heaven? It’s not for me to decide, it’s for Jesus… That’s what we’re saying, but should Jesus decide, than certainly those folks will be in communion with the Church because they are in communion with Jesus and Jesus will be one with the Body. Furthermore Jesus IS the reason we are Saved! Don’t forget about Him in this equation… I would fully expect when we die that we will be surprised just how far Gods mercy extends…"The question is now Steve do you really believe that Catholics are the only ones to go to heaven? I don’t, but I do believe that like you Jesus wants us to be part of the Church ‘on earth’ because He loves us and wants us to feel the love that is given by Him through the Sacraments and being part of the Church, and wants us to use our gifts to help others.

 

[Karen107]

Here Steve I found this which may answer some of the questions here.

catholic.com/magazine/articles/what-no-salvation-outside-the-church-means

 

[Karen107]

Note: that ALL should be fully incorporated into the Church, **(**not partially, not just a little bit) but fully incorporated.

Otherwise why be or stay Catholic? Just join some group of what’s happening now, and everything is fine. Which is NOT what the Church has ever taught.

Because I don’t leave salvation up to chance. I know where to find truth and I’m home. Thankfully I was brought up Catholic and though I was one who wasn’t catechized well being a child of the 60s, receiving the Precious Body and Blood of Jesus was always important to me and so I stayed. I can’t say that everyone else has shared my same experiences though.

 

[steve_b]

Steve think outside of the box for one moment… The Church is the ‘mystical body of Christ… Meaning, it goes beyond what we know as the Church on earth… ’ on earth’ being key… There is also a Church in heaven…Those are the ones who are already dead but their souls live on… Now it is up to Jesus who is the ‘gate’, to let anyone He wants to into heaven and those souls will be glorified at the end of time as in communion with God/Jesus as one ‘glorified’ Body of Christ… Now that’s not the ‘on earth’ Church, but the heavenly Church… This is a divine mystery but what we do know for sure is that Baptism is the key to entering eternal life because it incorporates us into Christ…So then knowing that, who is to say that these folks who have been baptized Christian will not be one with the Body of Christ in heaven? It’s not for me to decide, it’s for Jesus…

So Jesus gave us this warning, not to scare us needlessly, ( He doesn’t do that) but to give us reality, the way it will be.
**
**
Mt 7:14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few

IOW Jesus is saying most people don’t go to heaven, they go to hell.
"K:

That’s what we’re saying, but should Jesus decide, than certainly those folks will be in communion with the Church because they are in communion with Jesus and Jesus will be one with the Body. Furthermore Jesus IS the reason we are Saved! Don’t forget about Him in this equation… I would fully expect when we die that we will be surprised just how far Gods mercy extends…"The question is now Steve do you really believe that Catholics are the only ones to go to heaven?

διχοστασίας dichostasia = division / dissension / factions /sedition / sects, from the Catholic Church is used in the following 2 selections.

Romans 16:17-20 & Galatians 5:19-21

To which Paul warns them in Galatians

"I warn you as I’ve warned you before, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.

IOW they go to hell if they die in that sin

Did Paul speak on his own ? No. He was inspired by the Holy Spirit to teach that. And who did the HS get the teaching from that He gave to Paul and the other apostles? It was from Jesus
John 14:25-26 , John 16:12-15
K:

I do believe that like you Jesus wants us to be part of the Church ‘on earth’ because He loves us and wants us to feel the love that is given by Him through the Sacraments and being part of the Church, and wants us to use our gifts to help others.

Keep in mind, the passages I quoted show it’s not my opinion being given here. Those warnings I don’t question or dismiss. I take them absolutely seriously. Others can play games with them but not me,.

Here Steve I found this which may answer some of the questions here.

catholic.com/magazine/articles/what-no-salvation-outside-the-church-means

Re: one’s ignorance, invincible as well, #14

Because I don’t leave salvation up to chance. I know where to find truth and I’m home. Thankfully I was brought up Catholic and though I was one who wasn’t catechized well being a child of the 60s, receiving the Precious Body and Blood of Jesus was always important to me and so I stayed. *** I can’t say that everyone else has shared my same experiences though***.

Same here

 

[kdbueno]

The mystical body of the church, is present in every human being. The mystical body of Christ approves that Eucharistic blessing is possible. Anyhow, the dogmatic truth remains that the Eucharist is *mystically * one.

 

[steve_b]

The mystical body of the church, is present in every human being.

The mystical body of Christ approves that Eucharistic blessing is possible. Anyhow, the dogmatic truth remains that the Eucharist is *mystically * one.

I’m not sure what it is that you are answering