Who is Apollo?

[KarenNC]

Edwin,

Another point that I did not think of last night, but which I believe is relevant to your post, is the initial reaction of many polytheistic groups to Christian missionaries (here I am talking of those who are from a polytheistic culture, not a monotheistic one). I have read several accounts (sorry I can’t reference them right now) of the missionaries being appalled that the polytheists simply set up a statue of Jesus alongside the rest of their Gods, seeing him as a different foreign God but not as substantially different. I see this is different than identifying Jesus as the same as one of their existing Gods.

 

[Montalban]

Edwin,

Another point that I did not think of last night, but which I believe is relevant to your post, is the initial reaction of many polytheistic groups to Christian missionaries (here I am talking of those who are from a polytheistic culture, not a monotheistic one). I have read several accounts (sorry I can’t reference them right now) of the missionaries being appalled that the polytheists simply set up a statue of Jesus alongside the rest of their Gods, seeing him as a different foreign God but not as substantially different. I see this is different than identifying Jesus as the same as one of their existing Gods.

Where does my God sit within your realm?

 

[Montalban]

I think that the best answer is “it depends.” Depends on the God, depends on the person, depends on the culture, depends on the time period. It is a fair and very complex question.

As you seem to believe in different groups of gods all at once, what’s it matter?

It doesn’t seem to bother you if the Norse believe that their god Odin is supreme, or another created the universe, even if this is different from you and your pantheon.

And now you’ve got my God as well. Just add him on to Believe_Everything 1.0

 

[rayne100]

As you seem to believe in different groups of gods all at once, what’s it matter?

It doesn’t seem to bother you if the Norse believe that their god Odin is supreme, or another created the universe, even if this is different from you and your pantheon.

And now you’ve got my God as well. Just add him on to Believe_Everything 1.0

I do believe at this point that this is becoming rediculous to the point that I am almost temted to contact a moderator to close this thread.
Karen has stated several times that she does not want to talk with you about this because the two of you are talking in circles.
This conversation has strayed so far off the original path at this point that I don’t think that it can ever return.

 

[KarenNC]

All the rest have a specific job. Hera=marriage. Hades= afterlife. Zeus=king of gods/thunder and power. Ares=war. Apollo seems to be associated with a whole lot of things… but what is he the god OF?

Kittychorus,

Most of the Greek Gods were associated with more than one “job” if you will I’m not sure if this has been pointed out particularly in this thread.

theoi.com/Pantheon.html#Olympioi will give you a good introduction as well as theoi.com/Pantheon.html

 

[Montalban]

I do believe at this point that this is becoming rediculous to the point that I am almost temted to contact a moderator to close this thread.
Karen has stated several times that she does not want to talk with you about this because the two of you are talking in circles.
This conversation has strayed so far off the original path at this point that I don’t think that it can ever return.

Thank you for coming to her aid, however you need to read the posts first.

What I have asked has not been answered. Instead I’ve seen my questions turned into argument about whether I’ve said something about there’s no supreme god, or there’s only this or that.

The question remains how does she follow a possibility of a number of different pantheons each claiming to have a supreme god, a creation story etc.

She need not answer that. Another pagan’s quite welcome to.

But you need not pretend that this question has been answered.

 

[Montalban]

Kittychorus,

Most of the Greek Gods were associated with more than one “job” if you will I’m not sure if this has been pointed out particularly in this thread.

theoi.com/Pantheon.html#Olympioi will give you a good introduction as well as theoi.com/Pantheon.html

You mentioned before something about you not really believing in the literalness of the stories. So how do you know what the gods did?

 

[rayne100]

Thank you for coming to her aid, however you need to read the posts first.

What I have asked has not been answered. Instead I’ve seen my questions turned into argument about whether I’ve said something about there’s no supreme god, or there’s only this or that.

The question remains how does she follow a possibility of a number of different pantheons each claiming to have a supreme god, a creation story etc.

She need not answer that. Another pagan’s quite welcome to.

But you need not pretend that this question has been answered.

She has answered it over and over again. At this point just accept that you do not understand her answer. I have read all of the posts and to be honest, I’ve been banging my head against the keyboard at the same conversation that’s been going on over and over again.
I am not coming to Karen’s aid, she needs no help from me.
And I am not Pagan.

 

[FCEGM]

That’s the problem with paganism as you practice it; claiming to believe in everything at once.

It’s not just that my God claims to be the only God. The Norse have a ‘supreme god’ who’s the king of the gods who’s a different god from the god the Greco-Romans claim is the supreme god and king of the gods.

It’s akin to person “A” claiming to be president of the United States, and person “B” making the same claim. And then you saying “I recognise person “A” to be the president BUT I also recognise person “B”, even if I don’t follow him”.

You keep re-working my objection to one of claiming that there must be only one god. I don’t make this claim at all - although I believe there is only one, what I believe is irrelevant to your beliefs and you believe in the concept of mutually exclusive gods. Even the fact you accept the possibility of my God, even if you reject the claim that he is the supreme god leaves one asking, where does he fit into your pantheon?

Is my God simply one of your gods by another name?

And therein is the problem about experience which you think everyone else follows. This is false. Although I might be wrong about my God, the fact that I believe in one God is more logical than your system of saying you believe in a Greco-Roman pantheon, a Norse pantheon, AND my God too! (even if you have a different concept of my God; or even if my concept of my God is incorrect it still doesn’t detract from the fact you seem to accept my God as a distinc God from your pantheon of gods).

And we’ve not even delved into the notions of a ‘god’ that was created after the universe, and can die, as Greco-Roman gods can. But we’re having so much problem with me saying one thing and you reading this as quite a different argument.

Simply put I find it strange that you can accept multiple PANTHEONS (not just multiple gods within a pantheon, which would make more sense).

Excellent points, and it demonstrates that the GOD-WHO-IS is the logical one since He admits of no others, whereas Zeus, while claiming superiority, knows Hera who would know Jupiter who would know Persephone who would know Odin who would know Chicomecoatl who would know Poseidon who would know Atla who would know Arwan, etc, etc., etc.

But all men are vain, in whom there is not the knowledge of God: and who by these good things that are seen, could not understand him that is, neither by attending to the works have acknowledged who was the workman: But have imagined either the fire, or the wind, or the swift air, or the circle of the stars, or the great water, or the sun and moon, to be the gods that rule the world. With whose beauty, if they, being delighted, took them to be gods: let them know how much the Lord of them is more beautiful than they: for the first author of beauty made all those things. Or if they admired their power, and their effects, let them understand by them, that he that made them, is mightier than they: For by the greatness of the beauty, and of the creature, the creator of them may be seen, so as to be known thereby. But yet as to these they are less to be blamed. For they perhaps err, seeking God, and desirous to find him. For being conversant among his works, they search: and they are persuaded that the things are good which are seen. But then again they are not to be pardoned. For if they were able to know so much as to make a judgment of the world: how did they not more easily find out the Lord thereof? WISDOM 13: 1-9

 

[Montalban]

She has answered it over and over again. At this point just accept that you do not understand her answer. I have read all of the posts and to be honest, I’ve been banging my head against the keyboard at the same conversation that’s been going on over and over again.

She has said she believes in a pantheon of gods that she worships AND that she accepts my God, and she accepts other pantheons. The ‘circle’ involves her arguing over the definition of supreme god which is not what I’m debating at all.

She made this mistake with…
"KarenNC:

Aha! Now we come to the meat of the matter. No. Please provide evidence that Jupiter or Odin claims to be the sole God of the Universe.

Which IS NOT what I’m saying at all. I have NEVER said that Jupiter is the sole god. Nor have I said pagans believe this. I made this clear in post #37
Then she made this mistake…

KarenNC:

I said that I acknowledged that your God may well exist. I never said that I considered His claims to be the only God as valid. In fact, I think I have been instead at pains to explain quite clearly that I think exactly the opposite.

Which again I never said she has to believe that my God is the sole God of the universe. The fact that she believes the possibility of my God simply adds to the pantheons of gods she is willing to accept. It doesn’t matter what conception she has of the powers my God possesses, the fact that she adds my God to the list of gods is important. Not least because later she talks about how she knows her gods, but more of that in a moment.

Thus the ‘same conversation’ is simply her continuing to re-work my posts and refrain from actually answering my questions. You seem impressed by this.

I don’t believe I can make it any more simpler.

She accepts one pantheon, even believing in Jupiter, even if she says she’s not experienced him, nor does she worship him. How does she know he exists when she bases her knowledge of the gods on experience. Her answer to that was to simply throw the question back at me, which is not an answer. For instance how I learnt to read is not necessarily how she learnt to read. Perhaps you believe in sincerity that this is a valid answer.

However if you note in post #39 she says in response to my questions about the multiple pantheons that she doesn’t care about the conflicting claims. I admit that this is an answer of a fashion. However this was tinged with indignation about what I feel about my God, which is irrelevant again to what she thinks about my God, and her gods.
She says also in that post

KarenNC:

I know what my experiences with my Gods have been, and I base my religion on that. I believe that everyone ultimately does.

But not again that she doesn’t worship Jupiter, nor has she experienced him. So how does one say both (paraphrasing) “I know and worship gods that I’ve experienced - and that this is the way people really know about them” and “I know other gods I’ve never experienced”?
Post #27

KarenNC:

In all honesty, I don’t think that I can claim to have “experienced” Zeus personally

So she is contradicting herself by saying she believes in this particular god that she’s not personally experienced, even though she believes that knowledge of the gods is on experience - in fact she thinks everyone acts this way.

Evidentially you have no problem with that. I guess we can indeed go back to where she just says “I don’t care”. And don’t forget, she accepts the possibility of my God, even though she’s never experienced him either!

I am not coming to Karen’s aid, she needs no help from me.

Actually you are coming to her aid. What do you think stepping in and making comments in support of her posts is?

And I am not Pagan.

I neve said you were. I simply suggest that if she doesn’t want to answer, another is welcome. Evidentially you have the same trouble in adding meaning to what I say.

In short you come to the aid of someone, and threaten to contact the mods to this effect. You deny that you’re doing this. You believe that a mass of contradiction summarised by “In the end, I don’t care” is an answer! Perhaps then I will just accept this jumble of beliefs as an answer!?

 

[Montalban]

Excellent points, and it demonstrates that the GOD-WHO-IS is the logical one since He admits of no others, whereas Zeus, while claiming superiority, knows Hera who would know Jupiter who would know Persephone who would know Odin who would know Chicomecoatl who would know Poseidon who would know Atla who would know Arwan, etc, etc., etc.

Thank you!

Yes that’s one of the reasons people gave up such beliefs. It’s the belief in everything, and therefore ultimately nothing.

 

[Montalban]

Can you imagine this conversation…?

Montalban: You believe in a pantheon of gods?
A pagan: Yes.
Montalban: How do you know about these gods?
Pagan: Through experience.
Montalban: But you believe in other pantheons of gods.
Pagan: Yes
Montalban: How do you know about these gods?
Pagan: Look, I just do!

I would feel that this conversation betrays a confused stance about what that *Pagan *believes. That is in fact how I would feel in regards such responses. They don’t help me at all in understanding paganism as believed by this person.

More unhelpful than that, though is someone who believes in a whole pantheon of gods, but hasn’t experienced all of them (of those within that pantheon). How does this pagan know then what they are experiencing is in fact any of the gods in this pantheon?

Who knows!

Added to this is the fact the same pagan also doesn’t believe the literalness of any of the stories associated with that pantheon.

So in fact the proofs from sacred text(s) are dismissed too! To illustrate this as a problem, I *know of Jupiter by reading about him. I have, for instance Bulfinch’s Mythology. If someone wanted to know about the gods I would lend them this book. However a pagan on this thread actually says not to believe such stories!

It seems that the only way that one can then know (through experience) a pagan god is to simply have an experience and attribute that to any god. What frame of reference one has to attribute to a particular god is as yet unexplained on this thread.

*Thomas Bulfinch
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bulfinch

 

[rayne100]

I don’t believe I can make it any more simpler.

She accepts one pantheon, even believing in Jupiter, even if she says she’s not experienced him, nor does she worship him. How does she know he exists when she bases her knowledge of the gods on experience. Her answer to that was to simply throw the question back at me, which is not an answer. For instance how I learnt to read is not necessarily how she learnt to read. Perhaps you believe in sincerity that this is a valid answer.

However if you note in post #39 she says in response to my questions about the multiple pantheons that she doesn’t care about the conflicting claims. I admit that this is an answer of a fashion. However this was tinged with indignation about what I feel about my God, which is irrelevant again to what she thinks about my God, and her gods.

She says also in that post
But not again that she doesn’t worship Jupiter, nor has she experienced him. So how does one say both (paraphrasing) “I know and worship gods that I’ve experienced - and that this is the way people really know about them” and “I know other gods I’ve never experienced”?
Post #27
So she is contradicting herself by saying she believes in this particular god that she’s not personally experienced, even though she believes that knowledge of the gods is on experience - in fact she thinks everyone acts this way.

Evidentially you have no problem with that. I guess we can indeed go back to where she just says “I don’t care”. And don’t forget, she accepts the possibility of my God, even though she’s never experienced him either!

All of the highlighted statements above have been answered, you simply do not accept her answer. She has clearly stated that she **believes in **her own gods and accepts the fact that there are other gods.
This does not mean that she believes IN those gods, but rather believes that people have had experiences with their own gods and thus must believe that they exist including your god.
to BELIEVE IN a god is not the same as BELIEVING THAT a god EXISTS.

Actually you are coming to her aid. What do you think stepping in and making comments in support of her posts is?

I am not coming to her aid, I am simply tired of the argument. the two of you are talking in circle and it’s annoying. the only reason I am here is because KittyChorus is my friend and I am interested in the answers regarding HER ORIGINAL question.

In short you come to the aid of someone, and threaten to contact the mods to this effect. You deny that you’re doing this.

I am not threatening, I intend to at least contact Kitty and see if she will request the thread be closed. I never denied stating that I was considering contacting the mods.
I very much was and still am.

You believe that a mass of contradiction summarised by “In the end, I don’t care” is an answer! Perhaps then I will just accept this jumble of beliefs as an answer!?

Perhaps you should just accept that answer as an answer since you are not understanding the answers that are being provided.
I can tell you that at this point I DON’T CARE whether you understand them or not, just end it.

 

[kittychorus]

I am contacting the mods to have this thread locked because it seems to me that Montalban is taking this and making it overly argumentative over some issues that have been discussed from other threads.

Montalban, if you have issues with me doing this please contact me privately to discuss. I will not be able to respond immediately, but I will get back to you.

Thank you to those who have pointed out to me that this needed to be done because I have not been on the boards lately.

I truly thank you for the answers the rest have provided. Although I have gotten completely slammed at work with my end-of-year stuff and have not had time to sign on, I will be back as soon as I can slow down a bit.

 

[Montalban]

I am contacting the mods to have this thread locked because it seems to me that Montalban is taking this and making it overly argumentative over some issues that have been discussed from other threads.

If you feel this, then why not actually address the thread’s questions?

Montalban, if you have issues with me doing this please contact me privately to discuss. I will not be able to respond immediately, but I will get back to you.

Why do you publicly admonish me but feel that my responses to you should be by PM? And when you find the time to fit me in with your responses too! How gracious you are.

Thank you to those who have pointed out to me that this needed to be done because I have not been on the boards lately.

Why is this up to you to do?

I truly thank you for the answers the rest have provided. Although I have gotten completely slammed at work with my end-of-year stuff and have not had time to sign on, I will be back as soon as I can slow down a bit.

All someone needs to do is sort out the problem of mutually conflicting claims to truth. The answer “I don’t care about the problem”, is an answer of sorts. But I had hoped that some other pagan might want to tackle this.

 

[Montalban]

All of the highlighted statements above have been answered, you simply do not accept her answer. She has clearly stated that she believes in her own gods and accepts the fact that there are other gods.
This does not mean that she believes IN those gods, but rather believes that people have had experiences with their own gods and thus must believe that they exist including your god.
to BELIEVE IN a god is not the same as BELIEVING THAT a god EXISTS.

No you missed the point entirely. She bases her belief on experience of those gods. And yet AT THE SAME TIME she accepts other gods exist that she’s not experienced. She hasn’t just said that she accepts that Jupiter might exist, but that he does, although she does not worship him, nor has she experienced him.

I can’t make this much simpler. It is a conflict within her own argument, whether she doesn’t care, or not, in general or about the other pantheons.

a) She says belief in gods is reliant on experience
b) She experiences certain gods and therefore believes in them.
c) She believes in Jupiter (though doesn’t worship him AND she’s never experienced him

c) contradicts a) No matter how much you want to portray me as the boogey man, not direct comment about me.

I am not coming to her aid, I am simply tired of the argument. the two of you are talking in circle and it’s annoying. the only reason I am here is because KittyChorus is my friend and I am interested in the answers regarding HER ORIGINAL question.

You are. You above defended what you interpret her position is. And it is wrong. I have several people here who believe that I am argumentative, however you (pl.) are simply wrong about what she has said. I quoted what she said to this effect. And in the end, she answers that she just doesn’t care about the mutual claims. In the end I have said so be it. If another pagan wants to have an attempt to answer this quandary then let them”. I don’t see why you are so determined to stop this happening.

You can’t enter a thread, criticise me for such and such, re-write argument and then deny you’re doing this. Or maybe you can because you accept that she can have mutually exclusive argument too.

You can’t also deny that even if she has left the debate then I am still her willing to discuss this with any other pagan who wishes to discuss this. If she doesn’t want to return, that’s up to her. I had hoped she would, but I would indeed like to state that I’m willing to continue dialogue on these points with ANY OTHER PAGAN.

I am not threatening, I intend to at least contact Kitty and see if she will request the thread be closed. I never denied stating that I was considering contacting the mods. I very much was and still am.

You are the one who has personalised this by publicly stating that I’m doing such and such. Perhaps the very fact that I have publicly responded to you doing this will, of itself be deemed argumentative. I hope not. I don’t like the fact that you’ve made these comments. However if she doesn’t want to defend her position further, I have stated that I am happy to discuss this with another pagan. You seem to have missed this, again.

Perhaps you should just accept that answer as an answer since you are not understanding the answers that are being provided. I can tell you that at this point I DON’T CARE whether you understand them or not, just end it.

I am still here should someone wish to attempt to answer this. If you wish to lobby for this debate to be stifled, this is, in the end up to you. I leave this for others to examine.

 

[kittychorus]

Montalban-

I am not going to respond to your needling. That is how your comments are coming across to me and that is not the type of discussion/debate I enjoy. If you find PMs insulting, then don’t PM me. Up to you.

It was up to me to contact the mods because I started the thread. Your are right in that you have a question that other pagans may want to tackle. If your attitude was coming across to me differently, I might even participate in such a discussion. Either way, your posts have nothing to do with the OP. If you wish to start a different discussion, you should probably start your own thread.

I doubt that I will respond to you again. Whether you find me gracious or not is up to you and does not affect me in anyway.

I hope that the moderators will close this thread soon so that this will no longer be an issue.

 

[Montalban]

Montalban-

I am not going to respond to your needling. That is how your comments are coming across to me and that is not the type of discussion/debate I enjoy. If you find PMs insulting, then don’t PM me. Up to you.

I haven’t PM’d you. I’m interested in open discussion. I don’t find them insulting at all. I find someone attacking my posts in public, then demanding that I only respond to them by PM is rather odd

And you call it ‘needling’ when after you make unsubstantiated accusations I respond to them.

It was up to me to contact the mods because I started the thread.

It is up to you, if you want to contact them. That’s the beauty of the freedom of this forum, you’re allowed to do so.

Your are right in that you have a question that other pagans may want to tackle. If your attitude was coming across to me differently, I might even participate in such a discussion. Either way, your posts have nothing to do with the OP. If you wish to start a different discussion, you should probably start your own thread.

I doubt that I will respond to you again. Whether you find me gracious or not is up to you and does not affect me in anyway.

I hope that the moderators will close this thread soon so that this will no longer be an issue.

But I have dealt with your OP’s points. If you look to as recent a post as #56 you’ll note that I’m discussing the issue of monotheism -v- paganism, which is your ‘affront’ issue. However as far back as post #5 I responded to you and your OP directly. You never responded to that post.

I certainly hope you wish to engage on the very issue you seem to cherish so much. It’s a pity that you missed this part of the discussion, even when I have responded to you.

I believe that paganism failed as a popular religion, in part, because of its internal confusion. Certainly the hostility it seems to exhibit towards rational debate would not have endeared it. Fortunately monotheists aren’t fed to the lions anymore.

If you want to discuss this, including the evidences for my point please do. You may well feel that I don’t have convincing argument.

 

[REESE_HOWELL]

Apollo is a false god Satan false god