Who is Catholic?

[CMatt25]

For a site purporting itself to be “Catholic Answers”, I often see a different answer to these basic Catholic questions. Yet surely there is a single answer.

Is a sacramentally baptized Catholic considered a Catholic forever by the Church? Some say yes. Others say no.

Does an excommunicated Catholic remain a Catholic in Her eyes, though they are not to receive the Eucharist or to hold a role in a parish such as lector or EMHC?

 

[jpjd]

For a site purporting itself to be “Catholic Answers”, I often see a different answer to these basic Catholic questions. Yet surely there is a single answer.

You have to realize that the folks on this forum are not equally knowledgable. Also, people have different ways of understanding the issues. You can view an issue from different directions which results in different perspectives.

For example, who is Catholic? Well, anyone who is baptized Catholic is Catholic. However, what about those who fall away, or are “cafeteria Catholics”, or are excommunitcated? Some will say that they are still Catholics, but imperfectly in union with what the Church teaches. Others will say that one must be in communion with all the Church teaches to be truly Catholic.

But on matters of faith and morals, the ultimate Catholic Answer to any question is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Please refer to that to get your answer, and then come back here if you need help in understanding that answer.

 

[FightingFat]

For a site purporting itself to be “Catholic Answers”, I often see a different answer to these basic Catholic questions. Yet surely there is a single answer.

Is a sacramentally baptized Catholic considered a Catholic forever by the Church? Some say yes. Others say no.

Does an excommunicated Catholic remain a Catholic in Her eyes, though they are not to receive the Eucharist or to hold a role in a parish such as lector or EMHC?

What a strange post! To be honest, I think your phrase your question incorrectly. Who can measure Catholicity? In what sense do you mean it? I think you really mean communion. Do what degree are the people in your examples in communion with the Catholic Church? There are differing degrees of communion.

 

[Pitcharan]

For a site purporting itself to be “Catholic Answers”, I often see a different answer to these basic Catholic questions. Yet surely there is a single answer.

Is a sacramentally baptized Catholic considered a Catholic forever by the Church? Some say yes. Others say no.

Does an excommunicated Catholic remain a Catholic in Her eyes, though they are not to receive the Eucharist or to hold a role in a parish such as lector or EMHC?

I think the verses quoted below answer your question precisely:
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. (Rom 11:28-32)

 

[thistle]

For a site purporting itself to be “Catholic Answers”, I often see a different answer to these basic Catholic questions. Yet surely there is a single answer.

Is a sacramentally baptized Catholic considered a Catholic forever by the Church? Some say yes. Others say no.

Does an excommunicated Catholic remain a Catholic in Her eyes, though they are not to receive the Eucharist or to hold a role in a parish such as lector or EMHC?

A sacramentally baptised Catholic is a Catholic forever, no matter what he says or does or if they walk away from the Church. Once a Catholic always a Catholic. All they have to do is go to Confession and sincerely repent and they are once more in a state of grace.

Excommunication does not mean a person is no longer a Catholic. It means such a person is denied access to the Sacraments until they repent and the excommunication is lifted.

 

[steve_b]

For a site purporting itself to be “Catholic Answers”, I often see a different answer to these basic Catholic questions. Yet surely there is a single answer.

Is a sacramentally baptized Catholic considered a Catholic forever by the Church? Some say yes. Others say no.

Does an excommunicated Catholic remain a Catholic in Her eyes, though they are not to receive the Eucharist or to hold a role in a parish such as lector or EMHC?

can a person erase baptism? No. Once baptized always baptized. With excommunication, mortal sin, etc, one loses sanctifying grace. Which as you know can be reinstated with sacramental confession. If one leaves the Church, and professes another faith, they are considered a fallen away Catholic, but have the right to always come home through sacramental confession. It goes without saying, they have to mean, and be truly sorry for what they confess.

 

[lowell_mass]

CCC Compendium

1. Who belongs to the Catholic Church? - ((from CCC 836-838))
   All human beings in various ways belong to or are ordered to the Catholic unity of the people of God. Fully incorporated into the Catholic Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, are joined to the Church by the bonds of the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government and communion. The baptized who do not enjoy full Catholic unity are in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.

CCC 605

“There is not, never has been, and never will be a single human being for whom Christ did not suffer.” (Council of Quiercy (853): DS 624; cf. 2 Cor 5:15; 1 Jn 2:2.)

 

[tskrobacz]

For a site purporting itself to be “Catholic Answers”, I often see a different answer to these basic Catholic questions. Yet surely there is a single answer.

Is a sacramentally baptized Catholic considered a Catholic forever by the Church? Some say yes. Others say no.

Does an excommunicated Catholic remain a Catholic in Her eyes, though they are not to receive the Eucharist or to hold a role in a parish such as lector or EMHC?

My favorite answer is we are all Catholic at differing levels of understanding and awareness.

From Pope John Paul’s Encyclical Fides et Ratio:

the human being—the one who seeks the truth—is also the one who lives by belief. In believing, we entrust ourselves to the knowledge acquired by other people. This suggests an important tension. On the one hand, the knowledge acquired through belief can seem an imperfect form of knowledge, to be perfected gradually through personal accumulation of evidence; on the other hand, belief is often humanly richer than mere evidence, because it involves an interpersonal relationship and brings into play not only a person’s capacity to know but also the deeper capacity to entrust oneself to others, to enter into a relationship with them which is intimate and enduring.

As seekers of truth there are many who have, through their life experience and relationships, come to know the truth of the truth deposited in more than 2000 years of the Catholic wisdom tradition. We are all faced with the dilemma of who or what to believe. As the Catholic tradition has produced some of the greatest mystics, saints and doctors of the church, it’s a rational approach to carefully consider the churches teachings (Bible, CCC, decrees, etc) on matters of grave importance. The challenge we all have is these are not always clearly represented by the clergy…we must all take it upon ourselves to understand the true position of the church on such matters. Each of us must do the work to understand the true teaching unfiltered by our local culture or churches.

 

[CMatt25]

You have to realize that the folks on this forum are not equally knowledgable. Also, people have different ways of understanding the issues. You can view an issue from different directions which results in different perspectives.

For example, who is Catholic? Well, anyone who is baptized Catholic is Catholic. However, what about those who fall away, or are “cafeteria Catholics”, or are excommunitcated? Some will say that they are still Catholics, but imperfectly in union with what the Church teaches. Others will say that one must be in communion with all the Church teaches to be truly Catholic.

But on matters of faith and morals, the ultimate Catholic Answer to any question is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Please refer to that to get your answer, and then come back here if you need help in understanding that answer.

The fact that some will say one thing and others something else is my point. But your statement that “anyone who is baptized Catholic is Catholic” sounds like the correct answer to me.

 

[1ke]

The fact that some will say one thing and others something else is my point. But your statement that “anyone who is baptized Catholic is Catholic” sounds like the correct answer to me.

There are numerous canons in canon law that substantiate the position that baptism (or profession of faith for converts) incorporates one into the Church and subjects them to canon law. Canon law also enumerates punishment for various delicts, including excommunication, and procedures for lifting excommunication.

i posted a whole bunch of stuff, and the proverbial dog ate my homework. I am now on my iPad and copy/paste is terribly difficult so I will just refer you to canon such as Can 11, 96, 204-206, 224-231 and all of Book VI (vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM) on delicts, penalties, trials, etc.

 

[CMatt25]

What a strange post! To be honest, I think your phrase your question incorrectly. Who can measure Catholicity? In what sense do you mean it? I think you really mean communion. Do what degree are the people in your examples in communion with the Catholic Church? There are differing degrees of communion.

I meant it in the sense of who can identify as a Catholic and member of the Catholic Church. I’m not sure what was strange about it. I’ve seen for instance people here say a baptized Catholic can not be a Catholic for this or that reason. There’s even a priest whose name escapes me at the moment who they have quoted who has said one can not be pro choice and Catholic. Apparently though this is false. From what I now gather, they are Catholics though perhaps with a differing degree of communion.

 

[1ke]

There’s even a priest whose name escapes me at the moment who they have quoted who has said one can not be pro choice and Catholic.

Yes, but now you are going from saying something with a precise, canonical meaning to saying something with a more general, idiomatic meaning.

A priest, or anyone, stating one cannot be both pro-choice and Catholic is making a statement that is not meant to be taken literally as if it were a theological pronouncement. It is more of a bumper sticker slogan than an actual theological statement or canonical statement. It is meant to make one think about the incompatibility of Catholicism and the pro-abortion position.

I think that we need to keep in mind that people can use metaphoric language to make a point. If I say a pro-abortion politician isn’t a “real Catholic” I don’t mean they aren’t Catholic. I mean they are a hypocrite, or a “bad” Catholic or a poor example of a Catholic. But they are still Catholic.

 

[FightingFat]

Yes, but now you are going from saying something with a precise, canonical meaning to saying something with a more general, idiomatic meaning.

A priest, or anyone, stating one cannot be both pro-choice and Catholic is making a statement that is not meant to be taken literally as if it were a theological pronouncement. It is more of a bumper sticker slogan than an actual theological statement or canonical statement. It is meant to make one think about the incompatibility of Catholicism and the pro-abortion position.

I think that we need to keep in mind that people can use metaphoric language to make a point. If I say a pro-abortion politician isn’t a “real Catholic” I don’t mean they aren’t Catholic. I mean they are a hypocrite, or a “bad” Catholic or a poor example of a Catholic. But they are still Catholic.

Wot he said.

 

[Philthy]

I meant it in the sense of who can identify as a Catholic and member of the Catholic Church. I’m not sure what was strange about it.

Who CAN identify as a Catholic? Anyone can. It may be a misrepresentation of the truth, but anyone can “identify” themself as a Catholic.
Who can identify as a member of the Church? This question is more ambiguous than you think. First off there are two different fundamentally different understandings of what the term “member of the Catholic Church” means. For most people in most situations the term “member of the Catholic Church” simply means that the person has been validly baptized and, if old enough, has made their first Holy Communion and their Confirmation.
The other meaning of “member of the Catholic Church” is more theological in nature. The Church is the mystical body of Christ and ANYONE who is a part of that mystical body is a member of the Church. First and foremost are the Saints who are recognized as such, and everyone who is in Heaven. This group of Church members is called the Church Triumphant. In addition, all who have died and been judged worthy of inheriting eternal life(whether they were identified as Catholic on earth or not) are also members of the Catholic Church (even though we are unable to recognize who, exactly, these folks are.) This group is known as the Church Suffering (ie they are in Purgatory). Lastly, there are all those living who, by grace through saving faith in Christ, are in a state of grace and who, if they died today would be judged worthy of inheriting Heaven. They are also members of the Catholic Church, whether they identify themselves as Catholic or not. This group is referred to as the Church Militant. It is entirely this group that you likely meant to discuss in your original question though it is unlikely you had any idea that the term Catholic Church has a common (visible members) meaning and a different, theological one.
We simply don’t know in any absolute sense who the living members of the Church are in the theological sense, but in the common sense it is largely as I mentioned above - baptized and confirmed by a Bishop in the Catholic Church commonly means you are Catholic.

I’ve seen for instance people here say a baptized Catholic can not be a Catholic for this or that reason. There’s even a priest whose name escapes me at the moment who they have quoted who has said one can not be pro choice and Catholic. Apparently though this is false. From what I now gather, they are Catholics though perhaps with a differing degree of communion.

Certain sins place you outside of communion with the Church if they are committed with full knowledge of their gravity and sinfulness and entered into with full consent of the will. Abortion is one of them, but any mortal sin (10 Commandments) causes you to fall from grace and be outside of the Church Militant. In such a situation the individual needs to be reunited with the Church. The normative means of accomplishing this is via Sacramental Confession and Reconciliation.

In short, it’s a bigger question than you realized when you asked it!

Blessings!

 

[PRmerger]

What a strange post! To be honest, I think your phrase your question incorrectly. Who can measure Catholicity? In what sense do you mean it? I think you really mean communion. Do what degree are the people in your examples in communion with the Catholic Church? There are differing degrees of communion.

I think my friend Matt may be referring to some objections that people may have had to some posters putting “Catholic” under their religion but espousing doctrines that were in contradiction to Catholic teaching, thus causing scandal.

IOW: for those who are lurking or learning about Catholicism, seeing a Catholic poster saying things like, “I believe Mary is a goddess” or “I think Jesus was an alien” or “I think that Coca Cola and Ritz crackers are more relevant materials to use during the Eucharist” may cause the lurker to believe that this is true Catholic doctrine.

When people read that a Catholic is proclaiming such things, it causes confusion.

Thus, I believe one should remove the designation “Catholic” from her profile, if she is espousing doctrines not consonant with, well, Catholicism.

However, this person canonically remains a Catholic (provided, of course, she was baptized a Catholic) but ought not proclaim to be such on her profile.

 

[CMatt25]

Who CAN identify as a Catholic? Anyone can. It may be a misrepresentation of the truth, but anyone can “identify” themself as a Catholic.
Who can identify as a member of the Church? This question is more ambiguous than you think. First off there are two different fundamentally different understandings of what the term “member of the Catholic Church” means. For most people in most situations the term “member of the Catholic Church” simply means that the person has been validly baptized and, if old enough, has made their first Holy Communion and their Confirmation.
The other meaning of “member of the Catholic Church” is more theological in nature. The Church is the mystical body of Christ and ANYONE who is a part of that mystical body is a member of the Church. First and foremost are the Saints who are recognized as such, and everyone who is in Heaven. This group of Church members is called the Church Triumphant. In addition, all who have died and been judged worthy of inheriting eternal life(whether they were identified as Catholic on earth or not) are also members of the Catholic Church (even though we are unable to recognize who, exactly, these folks are.) This group is known as the Church Suffering (ie they are in Purgatory). Lastly, there are all those living who, by grace through saving faith in Christ, are in a state of grace and who, if they died today would be judged worthy of inheriting Heaven. They are also members of the Catholic Church, whether they identify themselves as Catholic or not. This group is referred to as the Church Militant. It is entirely this group that you likely meant to discuss in your original question though it is unlikely you had any idea that the term Catholic Church has a common (visible members) meaning and a different, theological one.
We simply don’t know in any absolute sense who the living members of the Church are in the theological sense, but in the common sense it is largely as I mentioned above - baptized and confirmed by a Bishop in the Catholic Church commonly means you are Catholic.
Certain sins place you outside of communion with the Church if they are committed with full knowledge of their gravity and sinfulness and entered into with full consent of the will. Abortion is one of them, but any mortal sin (10 Commandments) causes you to fall from grace and be outside of the Church Militant. In such a situation the individual needs to be reunited with the Church. The normative means of accomplishing this is via Sacramental Confession and Reconciliation.

In short, it’s a bigger question than you realized when you asked it!

Blessings!

While I was not totally unfamiliar with the terms Church Triumphant, Suffering, and Militant, thank you for such a thoughtful response. So would the baptized Catholic you speak of, who if of age, has received the Sacraments of their First Holy Communion and Confirmation, still be Catholic in the common meaning even if in mortal sin? Because they have until they take their last breath to repent and be reconciled?

 

[CMatt25]

Yes, but now you are going from saying something with a precise, canonical meaning to saying something with a more general, idiomatic meaning.

A priest, or anyone, stating one cannot be both pro-choice and Catholic is making a statement that is not meant to be taken literally as if it were a theological pronouncement. It is more of a bumper sticker slogan than an actual theological statement or canonical statement. It is meant to make one think about the incompatibility of Catholicism and the pro-abortion position.

I think that we need to keep in mind that people can use metaphoric language to make a point. If I say a pro-abortion politician isn’t a “real Catholic” I don’t mean they aren’t Catholic. I mean they are a hypocrite, or a “bad” Catholic or a poor example of a Catholic. But they are still Catholic.

Thanks Ike. I didn’t think a Catholic was not a real Catholic. But now I know such statements are not to be taken literally.

 

[kepha1]

In my opinion, a Catholic is one who “…keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” Rev. 12:17 sums it up nicely.

So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

 

[Philthy]

While I was not totally unfamiliar with the terms Church Triumphant, Suffering, and Militant, thank you for such a thoughtful response.

My pleasure…

So would the baptized Catholic you speak of, who if of age, has received the Sacraments of their First Holy Communion and Confirmation, still be Catholic in the common meaning even if in mortal sin?

In the common understanding the state of their soul is irrelevant! No judgments about such things are made - if they were validly baptized and confirmed and claim to be Catholic, many would consider them Catholic. In the theological sense they would not be Catholic because they are not in a state of grace.

Because they have until they take their last breath to repent and be reconciled?

theologoically speaking they are no better off than if they were an atheist; some might actually speculate that they are worse off because they knew the truth and rejected it, but that is mere speculation.

Stay awake!

 

[CMatt25]

In the theological sense they would not be Catholic because they are not in a state of grace.

But according to this answer, the Church uses the common sense definition then and not the theological one.

catholic.com/quickquestions/is-a-catholic-in-the-state-of-mortal-sin-still-a-member-of-the-catholic-church-or-doe