Who is Gothard and what does he teach?

[deb1]

I read that the shooter of the churches in Colorado was a homeschooling child. The curriculum that his parents used was apparently by a man named Gothard.

I was just curious about this curriculum. Does anyone know what this man teaches?

I’ve read, but I can’t find any unbiased sources, that it teaches an extreme form of fundamentalism.

As someone who homeschools I am always interested in various curriculums and what they teach.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

I read that the shooter of the churches in Colorado was a homeschooling child. The curriculum that his parents used was apparently by a man named Gothard.

I was just curious about this curriculum. Does anyone know what this man teaches?

I’ve read, but I can’t find any unbiased sources, that it teaches an extreme form of fundamentalism.

As someone who homeschools I am always interested in various curriculums and what they teach.

isnt this what the duggars use?
also here is the link to more info (direct from the horses mouth)
billgothard.com/bill/ and here is the link to the ATI info (same website) ati.iblp.org/ati/

 

[deb1]

isnt this what the duggars use?
also here is the link to more info (direct from the horses mouth)
billgothard.com/bill/ and here is the link to the ATI info (same website) ati.iblp.org/ati/

Perhaps the Duggers don’t follow his curriculum very closely. I don’t know.

The site that you gave me had a link to courtship. Now I am not against courtship, but this quote seemed extreme.

If we say that a person over eighteen years of age has the legal right to make his own marriage decisions, regardless of whether those decisions please his parents or not, we are making the Law of God of no effect by our traditions.

Does this mean that the parents are supposed to pick out their child’s future spouse?

I have come across some sites that advocate letting the father choose the daughter’s future husband. I don’t know if that is what Gothard teaches or if I am simply reading into the article.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

Perhaps the Duggers don’t follow his curriculum very closely. I don’t know.
** Dont know dont care honestly**
The site that you gave me had a link to courtship. Now I am not against courtship, but this quote seemed extreme.

If we say that a person over eighteen years of age has the legal right to make his own marriage decisions, regardless of whether those decisions please his parents or not, we are making the Law of God of no effect by our traditions.
** I believe that is what he teaches**
Does this mean that the parents are supposed to pick out their child’s future spouse?
Yup
I have come across some sites that advocate letting the father choose the daughter’s future husband. I don’t know if that is what Gothard teaches or if I am simply reading into the article.

both sites I gave you are “his” sites.
The second site I gave you is his homeschooling info site.
I am sure that if you read through both sites etc. you can find out what he teaches.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

I read that the shooter of the churches in Colorado was a homeschooling child. The curriculum that his parents used was apparently by a man named Gothard.

I was just curious about this curriculum. Does anyone know what this man teaches?

I’ve read, but I can’t find any unbiased sources, that it teaches an extreme form of fundamentalism.

As someone who homeschools I am always interested in various curriculums and what they teach.

Oh, wow, Now things fall into place a bit.

I don’t know what they teach but here’s a link to an X-ATI just for some perspective. From the link:

We’re not ATI-bashers like other groups out there. We are ex-junkies who appreciate the lighter side of our background. And unless we indicate that we’re telling the truth, you can assume we are making it up. It’s satire, folks.

A lot of Xers and people still in ATI are seriously messed up. Perhaps some of the information provided here will allow you to uncomplicate and de-formulize your life.

 

[deb1]

Wifeandmomoftwo, you are the one who asked if the Duggars used this curriculum, now you say that you don’t care. Stop giving me mixed messages. It makes my head hurt.

I did look over your links. Gothard doesn’t seem as extreme as some Christian fundamentalist groups that I have come across, like the Pearls for example. I might be missing something though. He does seem to go to an extreme about his views of adult children honoring their parents and seeking out the parents permission to marry.

Unless I am reading this incorrectly, Gothard seems to believe in generational curses?

This interest me because I homeschool.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

Wifeandmomoftwo, you are the one who asked if the Duggars used this curriculum, now you say that you don’t care. Stop giving me mixed messages. It makes my head hurt.

Sorry,didnt mean to make your noggin hurt…here take two http://marshallbrain.com/cp/gif/tylenol.jpg
and I hope the pain goes away

I did look over your links. Gothard doesn’t seem as extreme as some Christian fundamentalist groups that I have come across, like the Pearls for example. I might be missing something though. He does seem to go to an extreme about his views of adult children honoring their parents and seeking out the parents permission to marry.

Unless I am reading this incorrectly, Gothard seems to believe in generational curses?

His whole group/train of thought etc. looks extreme to me.

This interest me because I homeschool.

Your not this fanatical I hope

 

[Jeanette_L]

It’s been a lot of years, but when I was a teenager I attended some of the Bill Gothard Seminars in Basic Youth Training.

I was Baptist at the time and i don’t recall his teaching being too extreme, I had heard worse, but it was based more on living your life according to Biblical principals. As I recall, it was presented as more of a lifestyle choice, not one that was a must in order to live a moral life. It certainly is not what one would consider Catholic (at least what I know to be Catholic) by any stretch of the imagination.

Of course, this was years ago like I said, my memory could be playing tricks on me.

 

[deb1]

Sorry,didnt mean to make your noggin hurt…here take two http://marshallbrain.com/cp/gif/tylenol.jpg
and I hope the pain goes away

His whole group/train of thought etc. looks extreme to me.

Your not this fanatical I hope

I think that I was accidentally comparing them to a child raising book by a man named Pearl. He and his wife are very, very extreme. I think that Gothard is not quite as bad as they are, but I only skimmed his site. Strangely enough there are some web sites, and I have known some people. who make Gothard look moderate.

Don’t worry, I rescued myself from this type of mindset and I have no intentions of going back. I am always curious as to both the bad and good in homeschooling, though. Knowing what is bad helps me avoid it.

 

[surgei]

The site that you gave me had a link to courtship. Now I am not against courtship, but this quote seemed extreme.

If we say that a person over eighteen years of age has the legal right to make his own marriage decisions, regardless of whether those decisions please his parents or not, we are making the Law of God of no effect by our traditions.

This is not as extreme as it sounds it presuposes several things. 1)Adult children are still under their parents spiritual authority. An example of this might be that your Kids still go to mass even after they are ‘grown’ because they know it pleases you. 2) Parents are living lives in conformity to the will of God. 3) Parents have taken the time to know their children and potential mates.
The bulk of this is letting young people know that they should not marry if their parents are grudgingly giving the blessing to marry.

Does this mean that the parents are supposed to pick out their child’s future spouse?

I have come across some sites that advocate letting the father choose the daughter’s future husband. I don’t know if that is what Gothard teaches or if I am simply reading into the article.

:blushing:Gosh I hope the wealthy father of a beautiful Orthodox girl picks me some day.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

The site that you gave me had a link to courtship. Now I am not against courtship, but this quote seemed extreme.

If we say that a person over eighteen years of age has the legal right to make his own marriage decisions, regardless of whether those decisions please his parents or not, we are making the Law of God of no effect by our traditions.

Does this mean that the parents are supposed to pick out their child’s future spouse?

I have come across some sites that advocate letting the father choose the daughter’s future husband. I don’t know if that is what Gothard teaches or if I am simply reading into the article.

He seems to be forgetting the distinction the Church makes between “licit” and “valid”. If the social custom is that fathers choose husbands for their daughters then a marriage made with parental disapproval may be illicit, but it is still valid and the father cannot dissolve it on that basis.

 

[riabia]

He seems to be forgetting the distinction the Church makes between “licit” and “valid”. If the social custom is that fathers choose husbands for their daughters then a marriage made with parental disapproval may be illicit, but it is still valid and the father cannot dissolve it on that basis.

I don’t think Gothard cares what the Catholic Church teaches.:ehh:

 

[Jeanette_L]

I don’t think Gothard cares what the Catholic Church teaches.:ehh:

You’ve got that right!

 

[Jeanette_L]

This is not as extreme as it sounds it presuposes several things. 1)Adult children are still under their parents spiritual authority. An example of this might be that your Kids still go to mass even after they are ‘grown’ because they know it pleases you. 2) Parents are living lives in conformity to the will of God. 3) Parents have taken the time to know their children and potential mates.
The bulk of this is letting young people know that they should not marry if their parents are grudgingly giving the blessing to marry.

:blushing:Gosh I hope the wealthy father of a beautiful Orthodox girl picks me some day.

I think you have a pretty good understanding of the “Gothard” principles. He doesn’t come across that these things are “law” but that the Bible gives us a lot of wisdom in which, if we follow the ways in which it advises we live our lives, we will have overall, more peaceful and blessed lives here than if we ignore them.

And when talking about wanting to have your parents blessings for your marriage and choice of mate, this does presuppose that the parents in questions are decent, moral and loving parents who want the best for their children, and have taken the time in raising them, to know them better than anyone and therefore what will make a good match.

I don’t think he suggests at all that parents were to pick mates that their children had no interest in.

And these suggestions are made to the teens, that they should consider whether their parents are wiser than themselves in life and really do care a great deal about what kind of life their children will have.

It’s not rocket science, and I don’t believe it’s anti-Christian or anti-Scriptural or even anti-Catholic, at least not this one particular principle that we are talking about.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

See if these help you reach a decision:
Isca story on Veinot book
Catholic Answers From Posters
Al Kresta does not think much of Dr. Gothard.

My contact with people involved in IBLP find my opinion mixed. They were good people, but by and large, their kids had problems making their own decisions. ILBP doesn’t support mutual support in marriage as the Catholic Church teaches, but a headship that means the father’s word is law, and if the family obeys blindly, no matter what the father has them do, it will all be OK, that God will proect them. That bothers me.

 

[surgei]

See if these help you reach a decision:
Isca story on Veinot book
Catholic Answers From Posters
Al Kresta does not think much of Dr. Gothard.

My contact with people involved in IBLP find my opinion mixed. They were good people, but by and large, their kids had problems making their own decisions. ILBP doesn’t support mutual support in marriage as the Catholic Church teaches, but a headship that means the father’s word is law, and if the family obeys blindly, no matter what the father has them do, it will all be OK, that God will proect them. That bothers me.

Bill Gothard was a family friend growing up.
He does not teach this last perspective on the Fathers word as law. His teaching on this is actualy one of the many things that are in harmony with official Roman Catholic teaching. Your signiture line says you give your logic. This opinion, I feel, is lacking that logic.

 

[monicatholic]

***If we say that a person over eighteen years of age has the legal right to make his own marriage decisions, regardless of whether those decisions please his parents or not, we are making the Law of God of no effect by our traditions.

Does this mean that the parents are supposed to pick out their child’s future spouse?***

the Catholic answer (CCC2230) When they become adults, children have the right and duty to choose their profession and state of life. They should assume their new responsibilities within a trusting relationship with their parents, willingly asking and receiving their advice and counsel. ***Parents should be careful not to exert pressure on their children either in the choice of a profession or in that of a spouse. ***This necessary restraint does not prevent them - quite the contrary from giving their children judicious advice, particularly when they are planning to start a family.

(emphasis mine.)

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

And these suggestions are made to the teens, that they should consider whether their parents are wiser than themselves in life and really do care a great deal about what kind of life their children will have.

Teens see their parents’ mistakes and don’t repeat them. They are wiser than their parents. That’s how humanity progresses. Didn’t you know that?

 

[Zooey]

If we say that a person over eighteen years of age has the legal right to make his own marriage decisions, regardless of whether those decisions please his parents or not, we are making the Law of God of no effect by our traditions.

Does this mean that the parents are supposed to pick out their child’s future spouse?

the Catholic answer (CCC2230) When they become adults, children have the right and duty to choose their profession and state of life. They should assume their new responsibilities within a trusting relationship with their parents, willingly asking and receiving their advice and counsel. ***Parents should be careful not to exert pressure on their children either in the choice of a profession or in that of a spouse. ***This necessary restraint does not prevent them - quite the contrary from giving their children judicious advice, particularly when they are planning to start a family.

(emphasis mine.)

:yup: There you go! Now there is some good common sense…
I know some people who have been involved in Gothardite and/or Doug Phillips’ groups.
Though what they say sounds less extreme when quoted out of context, you have to understand that this kind of super-obedience to parents comes within a culture that teaches that:
It is a sin to date.
It is a sin for any woman to live alone; she must remain under the “authority” of a male family member.
It is a sin to marry anyone other than a spouse chosen by your parents.
Many of these spouses are chosen when the children are toddlers. In the case of which I speak, the couple were “betrothed” by the 2 sets of parents before either of the children were even born, and the young lady was not allowed to be educated beyond the minimum required by the state, to make her more “submissive”. ( Read: Helpless to support herself under any circumstances).

It is true, that the Pearls are worse.Much worse. (They are worse than most anybody I have come across, actually).
But the whole concept that men (just because they are men) are somehow endowed with the right to be in total charge of everything, is not a healthy, nor, IMO, even a Christian idea…
The latest from the camp, which I have heard, is that women are not to be allowed to vote. (Because they might vote different from their husband, which would be… Yeah…You guessed it. That’s a sin, too…).
Mind you, this comes from the Phillips side of things, but he is a Gothardite, too…
This whole movement to extreme patriarchy scares me, frankly. If for no other reason than the fact that it makes all serious Christians–Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox–look like we are part of the same worldview as some really, really scary people.:nope: :nope:

 

[Jeanette_L]

I think some here may be lumping a whole range of people in the Fundamentalist world with a relatively small group of extreme people.

I grew up Fundamentalist, and although there were many things wrong within the Fundamentalist Christian/worldview, I had never been exposed to the extremes you are speaking of. And I grew up going to the Gothard seminars! He just doesn’t teach what you are speaking of, that all these things are sins.

It is easy when we are frustrated to see everyone in the same light, but honestly, demonizing people/teachings unnecessarily is just as wrong as what you are purporting these people do. In other words, if you don’t want the world lumping us in with extremists because we take our faith seriously, we should also be as considerate and not lump all Fundamentalists together as extremists either.

If we are going to have a discussion about Bill Gothard and his teachings, then we should examine them on their own merits or shortcomings and in a less emotionally driven way, and definitely not group him/them in with other more extreme systems, even if the extremists like to associate themselves with him. It is a dishonest evaluation and confuses the issue.

The only reason I say this now, is because having come from there (Fundamentalism) to here, (the Church), I had to wrestle with my own tendancy to demonize them, and God has been working on me in that area. There are very good, God loving Christian people in those circles and it does none of us any good to charicature all of them in the same way. Many of them do that to us, God has called us to a higher standard and we need to live up to it, it will proove that we have the love of Christ for all, not just our own.

That doesn’t mean we can’t have fruitful discussions about what/how we disagree with them on any given issue, but we need to be careful to stick with the real discussion at hand in a spirit of truth *and *love, and go no further.