Who is greater?

[jane_doe]

I suppose the idea that the Church fell doesn’t call into question Christ’s ontological greatness. I mean Jesus is greater than he once was now in Mormonism. Jane said earlier that there was an apostasy because immoral people were in the Church and I suppose dominated it enough to the point where there was no longer a Church on earth. If this is true it would only go to show how sinful human beings are, but there are problems.

Bingo.

One problem arises in that God knew it was going to happen.God knew this Church, this body gathered around the person of Jesus out of the Old Israel and into the New Israel that this was going to fail. God knew that Paul’s missionary efforts would go on to produce a Church and then churches which would interpret his words wrongly and influence the course of human history. God knew that this false Christianity would be dominant.

Yes, God is all knowing and knows that people will fall. He knew that Adam would fall, that the people at large would fail before Noah, that the people at large would fail before Abraham, that the people at large would fail before Moses, etc.

 

[Horton]

Bingo.

Yes, God is all knowing and knows that people will fall. He knew that Adam would fall, that the people at large would fail before Noah, that the people at large would fail before Abraham, that the people at large would fail before Moses, etc.

So when was this “Great Apostasy”? What were the circumstances going on at the time? Who was involved?

The old testament gives quite a bit of information of when the people fell away from God. It also gives quite a bit of information on what God did to bring them back. It’s all in the bible, accepted by all of Christianity, for all to read. If God allowed His Church to fall into apostasy why is there no record of it?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Bingo.

Yes, God is all knowing and knows that people will fall. He knew that Adam would fall, that the people at large would fail before Noah, that the people at large would fail before Abraham, that the people at large would fail before Moses, etc.

So is it possible the Mormon Church could fail or could have already failed?

 

[Adonia]

Christ, the Son of God.

Correction: sinful people abandoned Christ’s Truth. Such was their choice, and Christ will force no man to Him. People’s love of sin is in no way a reflection of “failure” for Christ.

Rest of your question is based on false assumptions.

I see, and Christ’s full truth didn’t happen until Mr. Smith arrived on the scene. That’s what you Mormons are trying to get the world to believe. All truth was in Christ and his Church, Mr. Smith and the Mormon Church was not needed.

 

[Adonia]

People sin, people leave the Church, and corruption happens. It happened in Noah’s time, Moses’s time, Christ’s time, etc. God always sends a messenger to correct it.

That’s what Charles Taze Russell and Ellen White said, that they were God’s messengers to correct things. No, God would not allow a lie to continue for over 1800 years until your guy finally showed up. The Scriptures tell us about such things - under the title “False Prophets”.

 

[Tarquin]

Who is greater?

“I have more to boast of than **any **man had. I am the **only **man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, **nor Jesus **ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such work as I.” (History of the Church, Vol.6, pp. 408-09).

“Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation … [N]o man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. **He **holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to **rule **in the spirit world; and **he rules **there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit world…” (Brigham Young)

 

[Horton]

Who is greater?

“I have more to boast of than **any **man had. I am the **only **man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, **nor Jesus **ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such work as I.” (History of the Church, Vol.6, pp. 408-09).

“Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation … [N]o man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. **He **holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to **rule **in the spirit world; and **he rules **there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit world…” (Brigham Young)

 

[Robert_in_SD]

I am no fan nor defender of LDS, but this is a well-given answer to a thread that has all the marks of baiting.

Jon

Sadly, I agree John. The level of dialogue seems to have gone down quite a bit in the past few years. I stopped coming to the threads a while back. After returning, I confess I’m concerned about the lack of charity that I see among the posts throughout. I see a spirit of triumphalism. We are not called to wield our faith like a cudgel.

Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, 15 but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence; 16 and keep your conscience clear, so that, when you are abused, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. 17 For it is better to suffer for doing right, if that should be God’s will, than for doing wrong. (1 Pet. 3:15-17.)

Can we please remember this when contending for the Catholic faith brothers and sisters. It is very easy to win an argument, but lose a soul.

Peace,
Robert

 

[JonNC]

Sadly, I agree John. The level of dialogue seems to have gone down quite a bit in the past few years. I stopped coming to the threads a while back. After returning, I confess I’m concerned about the lack of charity that I see among the posts throughout. I see a spirit of triumphalism. We are not called to wield our faith like a cudgel.

Can we please remember this when contending for the Catholic faith brothers and sisters. It is very easy to win an argument, but lose a soul.

Peace,
Robert

Robert
You being around improves the charity instantly.

Great to see you again

Jon

 

[adamhovey1988]

I’ve found that many of these discussions are circular. The thing that confuses me the most about Mormonism is the polytheism. If there are multiple gods, and the God of our universe is an exalted man, how can he be God? He can not be the beginning and the end, and he cannot be the almighty, as there would have had to be an original god, I’d think. Maybe I am just misunderstanding.

 

[Tarquin]

I’ve found that many of these discussions are circular. The thing that confuses me the most about Mormonism is the polytheism. If there are multiple gods, and the God of our universe is an exalted man, how can he be God? He can not be the beginning and the end, and he cannot be the almighty, as there would have had to be an original god, I’d think. Maybe I am just misunderstanding.

Given the impossibility of infinite regression, and the impossibility of infinite past time, and the fact that time is not space and thus does not turn around upon itself like a ring to bite its tail - there is some “First Causation”. That is not an “effect”, therefore it needs no cause.

If Mormons cannot see that, then they should see that there is still something greater than their great line and lineage of god-men. *What preserves the universe? *It is not the Mormon God, because there was a time when he did not exist. Likewise for all previous, all future, all other gods. So there is some Force that allows gods to come into being, allows them to progress, allows them to get the priesthood after not having had it, and which prevents evil - all the Satans - from ever getting the upper hand. That Force is the God above all the Mormon gods. That Force is the True God. If Mormons cannot believe the universe was created, they should nonetheless be able to understand that it is *maintained *by some Force that prevents it from disintegrating or going in a wrong direction. That Force is the Love and Energy of One God. I’m sure I could explain this better if I were a philosopher, but I’m not. So this is more like a skinny, bare-bone skeleton of a true explanation. Apologies.

 

[kdbueno]

God who has full divine access to Himself, *is *a true God. That’s the difference.

 

[jlhargus]

Yes, God is all knowing and knows that people will fall. He knew that Adam would fall, that the people at large would fail before Noah, that the people at large would fail before Abraham, that the people at large would fail before Moses, etc.

God always had a contiguous faithful remnant. They were never a total disconnect from the faithful. They continued in an unbroken line of the faithful people of God, No matter how many or few.