Who is Isa of the Quran?

[swariffin]

Perhaps the following might help shed some light on why Muslims do not view the alleged crucifixion of Prophet Isa (pbuh) as a particularly humongous event the way Christians do:

On the night that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) escaped from Makkah to Madinah, a group of assassins kept vigil all night long around the Prophet’s house, waiting to kill him the moment he left his house early in the morning.

The Prophet [pbuh] and ‘Ali were inside the house and despite the tight siege the group of assassins laid, the Prophet [pbuh] told ‘Ali to sleep in his bed and cover himself with his green mantle and assured him full security under Allâh’s protection and told him that no harm would come to him. The Prophet [pbuh] then came out of the room and cast a handful of dust at the assassins and managed to work his way through them reciting verses of the Noble Qur’ân:

"And We have put a barrier before them, and a barrier behind them, and We have covered them up, so that they cannot see." [Al-Qur’an 36:9]

Even though Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) walked past the assassins, they could not see him and he then proceeded direct to the house of Abu Bakr who immediately accompanied him and both set out southwards and the assassins who laid siege to the house were startled when someone came and informed them that the Prophet [pbuh] had already left. They rushed in and to their utter surprise, found that the person lying in the Prophet’s bed was ‘Ali not Muhammad [pbuh].

From this story, we can see that the Lord is not averse to protecting and saving His Messengers from being harmed by their mortal enemies and I suspect that the method of escape of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) when he walked past the assassins is not dissimilar to the method of escape of Prophet Isa (pbuh) during the alleged crucifixion event… and Allah knows best.

Prophet Isa (pbuh) was indeed saved by the Lord from being harmed by people who wanted to crucify him just as Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was saved time and again from being harmed by his many enemies.

And so you see, this alleged crucifixion of Prophet Isa (pbuh) is therefore not a particularly big deal event for Muslims since it is pretty normal for the Lord to protect and save His Prophets (peace be upon them all) from harm.

This is the proof that your mind does not equal to God’s mind. You are thinking of escape, God is thinking of sacrifice.

 

[FaithJoy]

500 witnesses to Jesus’ crucifixion and resurrection. Only ONE man ,Muhammad, is a witness to the beliefs in Islam. If one was asked if he would like 500 chances or 1 chance to win the state lotto,what common sense person would take only one chance? Muhammad made one fatal mistake in the believability of his claims, he had no witnesses. Islam won’t even believe women claiming that they are raped. Islam is very selective in choosing witnesses, even down to the fatal mistakes in stoning innocent women. The fullness and totality of the foundation of Islam of one man witness claims, is a very weak foundation at best. Just put it all in a court room setting, 500 witnesses or 1 witness,all courts would select 500 witness testimony, hands down to win the case.

 

[thirddec]

yes may be
and i can say the same
theire is no contradiction between islam and massage of jesus , christians failed to recognize his true massage

How can you say there are no contradictions ; You do not accept that Christ died on the cross like He said He Would. There is no bigger contradiction as to call Christ a liar and a false Prophet as you say he wasn’t crucified.

Mark 8:31-33 (New International Version 1984, ©1984)

He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.”

Peter was clearly unhappy about the Idea of a Messiah that God would allow to die as the Jews didn’t understand this mission of Christ and that is why near the end Christ had to educate them from scripture. Notice when Peter tries to do this Christ points out that denying Christ his mission on the Cross would be the act of satan so now **denying that Christ fulfilled his Mission is also the act of satan. Our GOD is no deciever satan is. Our God does not cause people to be led astray by creating a lie for them. **

Time to leave you Decieving Allah and Join us in Worshiping the God od TRUTH.

I noticed that in my last line I had some typing errors but I left them in ; do the typing errors show I didn’t write it or change my message ?

 

[Amir_the_Masihi]

Well you should know Muhammed believed in magicians and even blamed them for when he imagined doing things just ask Aisha. Which other prophets of God so imagined themselves doing thing and then blamed bad magic?

And this split moon miracle is that the one all your brothers keep posting pictures from NASA to prove but when you move out and see the bigger pictures its clearly a load of rubbish ( i kept a good website address about planetary and lunar riles ; mmmh did he split planets too? )

Christ reaches out for you ; drop the superstition ; leave the jeanies oh sry Jinns behind and reach out and take the hand of Your Saviour Christ who will lead you safely into his Fathers house. “I am the Way ; the Truth and the Life. No one can enter except through ME”

Hey man, you’re preaching to the choir. As an ex-Muslim, I know many of the so called “proofs” in the Islamic proselytizing handbook. I may not be a follower of Christ (yet, at least; still deliberating on that), but I’m not a Muslim anymore either. Don’t let my user name fool you. FYI, ‘Masihi’ means Christian in my language and Arabic.

Haven’t I been arguing AGAINST the Muslims in this topic so far, anyway? I thought my posts were pretty unambiguous.

 

[hamba2han]

Prove it.

Clearly, a man blinding and walking past an angry, focused, armed group of “assassins” without being noticed with just a HANDFUL of dust is not possible even if the assassins were as myopic as I am! Of course, that would mean that it was a miracle of Allah that he was not seen.

So. Prove it.

You said:

Well, your “story” was witnessed by a dozen people maximum. Give us one good reason why we, using your own standards, should take your story seriously any more than you take the Crucifixion seriously?! Look at the pot calling the kettle black(!)

P.S. Why dust? Why not sand? Surely, in the desert, sand is much more abundant to come by and therefore the logical choice…

You want proof that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) escaped from his assassins??

Apart from the fact that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did indeed survive and escape to Madinah, there is also the testimonies of Abu Bakr and Ali (may Allah be pleased with them) verifying the truth of this story. Additionally, there is also the non-denial of the assassins themselves that they never saw their target come out of his house that they laid siege to all night long.

When the adversaries of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) themselves do not dispute the veracity of the story, then what more proof is required in order to confirm the truth of the report?

… Of course, that would mean that it was a miracle of Allah that he was not seen.

Bingo!

 

[hamba2han]

This is the proof that your mind does not equal to God’s mind. You are thinking of escape, God is thinking of sacrifice.

God is thinking of protecting and saving His Prophets (peace be upon them all) from being harmed by their enemies.

This is what one would expect that a loving and just God would do.

BTW, the Hijrah (migration) of the early Muslims from Makkah to Madinah was an act of quite incredible sacrifice since they left behind their homes, family and property solely for the sake of obeying and pleasing their Lord.

 

[hamba2han]

500 witnesses to Jesus’ crucifixion and resurrection. Only ONE man ,Muhammad, is a witness to the beliefs in Islam. If one was asked if he would like 500 chances or 1 chance to win the state lotto,what common sense person would take only one chance? Muhammad made one fatal mistake in the believability of his claims, he had no witnesses. Islam won’t even believe women claiming that they are raped. Islam is very selective in choosing witnesses, even down to the fatal mistakes in stoning innocent women. The fullness and totality of the foundation of Islam of one man witness claims, is a very weak foundation at best. Just put it all in a court room setting, 500 witnesses or 1 witness,all courts would select 500 witness testimony, hands down to win the case.

Throughout the 23-year period of his Prophet-hood, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had literally thousands of companions who witnessed first-hand the truth of his mission and his credentials as a Messenger of God.

All of these reports are found in the ahadith and the Seerah of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)… and of course there is also the Qur’an as the ultimate proof of his Prophet-hood.

 

[schaick]

if i asked you about your proofs that jesus is God you will tell me bible said so
if i asked you about your proofs that bible contain the truth you will tell me my church said to

are you have different reasoning for the same questions ?

I don’t need a church to tell me the Bible is from GOD.

In the Bible we see multiple witnesses to the fufillment of prophecies and miracles.

 

[Amir_the_Masihi]

You want proof that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) escaped from his assassins??

Apart from the fact that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did indeed survive and escape to Madinah, there is also the testimonies of Abu Bakr and Ali (may Allah be pleased with them) verifying the truth of this story. Additionally, there is also the non-denial of the assassins themselves that they never saw their target come out of his house that they laid siege to all night long.

When the adversaries of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) themselves do not dispute the veracity of the story, then what more proof is required in order to confirm the truth of the report

Bingo! You’re simply proving my point.

You said:

hamba2han:

And so, so what if 500 or so people thought they saw Jesus (pbuh) being crucified?.. What does this prove??

I believe that it was an illusion that people saw when the Statue of Liberty “disappeared” in 1983 and I also believe that it was an illusion that the 500 or so “witnesses” of the crucifixion saw some 2000 years ago.

Look at the parts in bold.

Are you finally seeing that the case of the Crucifixion is no different to the case of the alleged assassination attempt on Muhammad in terms of your “witnesses” argument? In the case of the Crucifixion, you have 500 Abu Bakr’s and ‘Ali’s, as well as the Saints who swear that they saw Jesus rise again (which obviously means that He was crucified) and after he was gone, they WILLINGLY went into pagan lands to spread Jesus’ message and were martyred in the process. Now, I don’t know about you, but no man would go and preach the CRUCIFIXION STORY and willingly die for it if the person they claimed was crucified wasn’t ever even actually crucified!!!

P.S. And who’s to say that, in fact, Muhammad simply didn’t sneak past the assassins (you can’t deny that possibility; you weren’t there) and then told any story he wished to the others? After all, 'Ali was under a cover and Abu Bakr wasn’t there until AFTER Muhammad left the house. Not to mention that Muhammad has been known to take ordinary events and claim them to be extraordinary proofs of his prophethood. Such as when a solar eclipse happened, he claimed that it was a sign from Allah (if I remember correctly).

 

[schaick]

Prove it.

Clearly, a man blinding and walking past an angry, focused, armed group of “assassins” without being noticed with just a HANDFUL of dust is not possible even if the assassins were as myopic as I am! Of course, that would mean that it was a miracle of Allah that he was not seen.

…
P.S. Why dust? Why not sand? Surely, in the desert, sand is much more abundant to come by and therefore the logical choice…

LOL!! OH dear.

Sand or dust in the eyes is NOT a miracle! I guess you have never had even a pinch of dust in your eyes.-It is blinding and very painful. Your eyes water and if you can see anything it is blurred and distorted.

Mohammad is simply a dirty fighter- oldest trick in the book throwing dust, sand or dirt in the eyes of an opponent.

The other problem here-hadith were written way too long after the event. Stories grow into legends very easily. No witnesses were living when the hadith were written.

 

[Amir_the_Masihi]

Throughout the 23-year period of his Prophet-hood, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had literally thousands of companions who witnessed first-hand the truth of his mission and his credentials as a Messenger of God.

All of these reports are found in the ahadith and the Seerah of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)… and of course there is also the Qur’an as the ultimate proof of his Prophet-hood.

“The truth of his mission”? Really?! Okay, did anyone actually go up to the cave where he had his “meetings” with the Angel Jibra’il? Did anyone go with him on the “journey” of Isra & Miraj? No, they took his word for it.

They were only witnesses to his actions which were never extraordinary or divine such as his conquests. Come on, as THE final “prophet”, he was pretty lacklustre. Nuh had the Flood, Musa had magic, Isa brought people back from the dead… What did Muhammad have? A Qur’an which, while sounds nice when recited, does not hold a candle to the actions of the other prophets. Also, Muhammad died as a result of a poisoning and died a painful death. Hardly a fitting end for the greatest prophet of them all. Especially so considering that right after he died you have the Battle of Jamal and the Battle of Siffin. God’s “community” erupted into all-out conflict after Muhammad was gone. Compare that to what happened after Jesus was gone and you’ll be surprised.

If Muhammad was a prophet, he didn’t do a very good job. Call me a traitor if you want, but I’m only calling it how I see it.

 

[schaick]

Hey man, you’re preaching to the choir. As an ex-Muslim, I know many of the so called “proofs” in the Islamic proselytizing handbook. I may not be a follower of Christ (yet, at least; still deliberating on that), but I’m not a Muslim anymore either. Don’t let my user name fool you. FYI, ‘Masihi’ means Christian in my language and Arabic.

Haven’t I been arguing AGAINST the Muslims in this topic so far, anyway? I thought my posts were pretty unambiguous.

Congratualations. Tough to do especially if you were raised Muslim and your entire family remains Muslim.

I hope you are safe!!

 

[schaick]

Bingo! You’re simply proving my point.

You said:

Look at the parts in bold.

Are you finally seeing that the case of the Crucifixion is no different to the case of the alleged assassination attempt on Muhammad in terms of your “witnesses” argument? In the case of the Crucifixion, you have 500 Abu Bakr’s and ‘Ali’s, as well as the Saints who swear that they saw Jesus rise again (which obviously means that He was crucified) and after he was gone, they WILLINGLY went into pagan lands to spread Jesus’ message and were martyred in the process. Now, I don’t know about you, but no man would go and preach the CRUCIFIXION STORY and willingly die for it if the person they claimed was crucified wasn’t ever even actually crucified!!!

P.S. And who’s to say that, in fact, Muhammad simply didn’t sneak past the assassins (you can’t deny that possibility; you weren’t there) and then told any story he wished to the others? After all, 'Ali was under a cover and Abu Bakr wasn’t there until AFTER Muhammad left the house. Not to mention that Muhammad has been known to take ordinary events and claim them to be extraordinary proofs of his prophethood. Such as when a solar eclipse happened, he claimed that it was a sign from Allah (if I remember correctly).

I love Paul’s coversion story.

I will highlight the main points:

Acts 9
1** Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples**. He went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3 **As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
5 “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.

“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” ** 7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8 Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9 For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.

10 **In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, “Ananias!” **
“Yes, Lord,” he answered.

11 The Lord told him, “Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. **12 In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight.” **
13 “Lord,” Ananias answered, “I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your holy people in Jerusalem. 14 And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name.”

15 But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.”

17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength.

 

[Amir_the_Masihi]

Congratualations. Tough to do especially if you were raised Muslim and your entire family remains Muslim.

I hope you are safe!!

No need to worry about me. I was neither raised Muslim and my family aren’t exactly devout either… there’s like a bottle of wine and some gin in the kitchen right now. Even my family back in Iran hates the Islamic regime and has a negative view of Islam in general.

I just happen to come from a Muslim country and I became quite zealous in Islam because of my Muslim friends. Now, as you can see, things have clearly changed. While I respect Islam and the great things it did do (such as stopping the burying alive of newborn female in Arabia), I don’t believe it’s the Truth. It’s [the Qur’an] essentially stories from the Bible rehashed with a new theological perspective. Of course, I’m simplifying, but that’s just my view.

And yes, I too really love Paul’s story, since it sort of mirrors my own (on a smaller scale of course!), i.e. he was a zealous Jew, I was a zealous Muslim; he had a sudden revelation of the Truth, as did I and etc…

God Bless, friend. Pray that I find the Truth like you have.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Hey man, you’re preaching to the choir. As an ex-Muslim, I know many of the so called “proofs” in the Islamic proselytizing handbook. I may not be a follower of Christ (yet, at least; still deliberating on that), but I’m not a Muslim anymore either. Don’t let my user name fool you. FYI, ‘Masihi’ means Christian in my language and Arabic.

Haven’t I been arguing AGAINST the Muslims in this topic so far, anyway? I thought my posts were pretty unambiguous.

My prayers are with you. many of us have chosen the path which leads to truth. That path cannot be the one which walks in violence, wrath, and hatred of others. That path leave no winners and no survivors. Its a lie.

The correct path is the one which leaves mankind alive, not afraid to speak his mind, capible of making mistakes without the immediate threat of a barbaric death. One that promotes Love, Trust and Understanding. Here on this path life continues to exist, be it mistakes are made or not. On this path man lives to gain a clearer understanding of others and that which he does not know. And thus finds the true path of the future which leads to closer existence to God.

Who here has the knowledge to pass judgement on mankind which belongs to God? And to bring violence to His people in His land? Who has the right to judge His people but God. All the humans of the world belong to God. While God choose’s to leave Mercy on the table, then all those of this world are entitled to that Mercy untill God himself makes a final judgement on them or removes that mercy from the table of life. If they walk 90% of their life as a sinner than convert to God because they found Truth, then that is what God allowed then to do. Who are we to pass judgement on anyone?

If Islam cannot live in peace with Gods Kingdom, then they are not of Gods Kingdom. Its not a choice to live in it, and “tolerate” all others till you can dominate them. Its being in it and of it, and loving all people especially when they are not living up to your expectations. In those difficult trials is the True Test of the true followers of God.

God Bless, Gary

May God have Mercy on us.

God Bless, Gary

 

[hamba2han]

For those wishing to see a miracle of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), I have already mentioned one on this thread i.e. through his efforts, Arab tribesmen willingly accepted and accorded the utmost reverence to a Jewess and her son named Isa (pbuh).

This can be considered a miracle in itself but yet many do not realize what a truly awesome accomplishment this is.

Imagine if a Jew accepts an Arab man as the Final Messenger of God… but oh wait, many already have… and these Jews and their descendants are now called Muslims.

Miracle of miracles… that is the Message that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) brought to humankind.

 

[thirddec]

Hey man, you’re preaching to the choir. As an ex-Muslim, I know many of the so called “proofs” in the Islamic proselytizing handbook. I may not be a follower of Christ (yet, at least; still deliberating on that), but I’m not a Muslim anymore either. Don’t let my user name fool you. FYI, ‘Masihi’ means Christian in my language and Arabic.

Haven’t I been arguing AGAINST the Muslims in this topic so far, anyway? I thought my posts were pretty unambiguous.

You know I’ve been very clear in my many discussions related to Islamic issues on this Forum but never before yesterday did I strongly feel the need to Put at the end of my posts that Christ was reaching out for our muslim brothers and sisters. I do believe the Holy Spirit can guide us at times and I’m wondering now who was the message being sent to at this very special time for us Christians. I can only hope it settles in the right hearts

 

[swariffin]

God is thinking of protecting and saving His Prophets (peace be upon them all) from being harmed by their enemies.

This is what one would expect that a loving and just God would do.

BTW, the Hijrah (migration) of the early Muslims from Makkah to Madinah was an act of quite incredible sacrifice since they left behind their homes, family and property solely for the sake of obeying and pleasing their Lord.

 

[swariffin]

God is thinking of protecting and saving His Prophets (peace be upon them all) from being harmed by their enemies.

This is what one would expect that a loving and just God would do.

BTW, the Hijrah (migration) of the early Muslims from Makkah to Madinah was an act of quite incredible sacrifice since they left behind their homes, family and property solely for the sake of obeying and pleasing their Lord.

How about sacrifice his life, will he ever do it? Why Muhammad order his follower to die for God? Will Muhammad would like to die for God? If God protects his prophet away from death, what is the logic that Muhammad order his follower to die for God? What a cruel God you have. At least, what a selfish prophet you have.

 

[swariffin]

Throughout the 23-year period of his Prophet-hood, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had literally thousands of companions who witnessed first-hand the truth of his mission and his credentials as a Messenger of God.

All of these reports are found in the ahadith and the Seerah of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)… and of course there is also the Qur’an as the ultimate proof of his Prophet-hood.

Those thousands of yours started from ONE, my friend. That ONE became thousands after following the concept of multi-level marketing. When the number is large enough, the method changed into forcing. When the number even get larger, the method became conquering. Our question is why you believe in such ONE?