Who is Isa of the Quran?

[thirddec]

No. You couldn’t if you had forever.

I [and plenty of others] have noticed this tactic since coming to CAF several years ago. You will note that the original question was about “Isa of the Qur’an”, and the discussion is now about Jesus of the Bible. They have succeeded once more in turning the question around and demanded that Christians justify their beliefs. I am convinced this is not an accident. A good portion of the Qur’an has this format: “If they [unbelievers] say X, you [believers] respond with Y, and if they say W, you respond with Z.” This is the format they are using here; their answers are canned. Besides, the more time they get you to spend defending Christianity, the less time you have to “insult Islam and Allah’s messenger”, for whenever you merely challenge Mohammed, you have insulted Islam since he is the perfect Muslim.

You seem to be reinforcing what i’m saying and what i have noted from personal experience. They are like Hydras with their Questions ; answer 1 and they ask you three more without conceeding the first has been answered but ask them a question thats not on their agenda and they side track.

What i was saying was that yes I could answer each individual Question with a little time but its a pointless exercise because they wont accept any answer but will just keep pumping away with more so I am saying I will play fair answer my question without a question in return and make the answer actually relevant to it and I will do like wise otherwise I wont play this silly Game

I got kicked from a muslim forum when I proved using their own Quran and Hadith that the Only people free from satans touch was Jesus and Mary so therefore Mohammed had to be a sinner like everyone else. There was no refute just an instant ban lol. Remember i had only about 1 month of time on their website and that was all the time I had every really found out about Islam and got them in knots on that ( the internet is great ). How quickly would Islam fall apart if someone had a lifetime of study of the bible / quran and arabic.
( slap me please my pride is slipping out again )

Loved the quote from St. John of Damascus (c. 676 AD – 4 December 749 AD post 115
language may be old but the ideas and presentation so contemporous

 

[Amir_the_Masihi]

…

And so, there you have it folks, actual proof & confirmation from the dedicated research of respected Biblical scholars that the contents of the Bible has indeed been seriously altered.

So STOP using the Bible to try and verify your own beliefs as you have done! What is it with Muslims and cherry-picking the Bible in order to prove their own beliefs? It’s not just hamba, I’ve seen it done by many Muslims. Like that terrible Muslim apologist website Answering-Christianity.

sedonaman, you’re right; far too often they turn the tables on others and make them answer for their own beliefs. Let’s make him answer for his beliefs, for now. I won’t get to deep into this topic from lack of wanting to seriously derail this thread any further than I already have.

Qur’anic Contradictions:

1. Have some passages in the Quran been abrogated?
   No, the Quran is perfect and can never be abrogated.
   — There is no changing the Words of Allah. (10:64)
   — Perfected is the Word of thy Lord in truth and justice. There is naught that can change His words. (6:115)
   Yes, some verses have been abrogated.
   — Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. (2:106)
   — And when We put a revelation in place of (another) revelation, - and Allah knoweth best what He revealeth - they say: Lo! thou art but inventing. Most of them know not. (16:101)
2. Is Iblis an angel or a jinn?
   Iblis is an angel
   — And when We said unto the angels: Fall prostrate before Adam, they fell prostrate (all) save Iblis; he refused. (20:116)
   Iblis is a jinn
   — And (remember) when We said unto the angels: Fall prostrate before Adam, and they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He was of the jinn, so he rebelled against his Lord’s command. (18:50)
3. Could Allah have a son?
   Yes
   — If Allah had willed to choose a son, He could have chosen what He would of that which He hath created. (39:4)
   No
   — Yet they … impute falsely, without knowledge, sons and daughters unto Him. … The Originator of the heavens and the earth! How can He have a child? (6:100-101)

Hamba. These are but a few of many “contradictions”. Now I’m sure that there are “perfectly good explanations” for these verses, but at least you’re getting a taste of your own medicine now.

 

[FaithJoy]

…continued…

Christians need to examine what Jesus (pbuh) himself says in the Bible because this is where they would be able to find the explanation to this question.

"I was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 15:24)

and also

"These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: 'Do NOT go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel." (Matthew 10:5-6)

What this means is that since Prophet Isa (pbuh) was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel, then there really was no reason at all why Allah would need to preserve the Gospel that was given to him, was there?

The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), on the other hand, is the Seal of the Prophets and he was sent as a Mercy for ALL of humankind and so Allah has indeed promised to protect and preserve the Qur’an till the time when the world as we know it finally comes to an end.

Say (O Muhammad): People! I am the Messenger of Allah sent to you all. … (Al-Qur’an, 7:158)

And We have not sent you (O Muhammad) but to the whole of mankind as a giver of glad tidings and a warner, but most people have no knowledge. … (Al-Qur’an, 34:28)

And as for the corruption of the scriptures by the Jews, the Bible has the following verses within it:

`How can you say, “We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?’ … (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)

Deuteronomy 31:25-29
25 he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD :
26 "Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you.
27 For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have been rebellious against the LORD while I am still alive and with you, how much more will you rebel after I die! 28 Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth to testify against them.
29 For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall upon you because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD and provoke him to anger by what your hands have made."

The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted. The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.

Do Christians accept the validity of the above verses in their Bible?

Muslims do not have a problem accepting these verses as being true.

I heard a priest tell me once, " we are all Jewish", that is the people who follow the law through the teachings of Jesus. Thinking of it in the idea of race is wrong. Jesus was concerned in what was in people’s hearts. You are reading out of context.

 

[MontChevalier]

( slap me please my pride is slipping out again )

:slapfight: SLAP!

Let me know if you want anything else buddy.

-MontChevalier

 

[RobbyS]

Christians cannot even provide undeniable proof that the Jesus (pbuh) in the Bible really even existed, can they?

Muslims, on the other hand, can always point to Prophet Isa (pbuh) being mentioned in the Qur’an as proof that Jesus (pbuh) really did exist.

How come, Christians might ask?

Well, why else would a whole chapter in the Qur’an, the holy scripture written in Arabic, be named after a Jewess named Mariam the mother of Prophet Isa (pbuh), were it not for the fact that both mother and son really did exist and are accorded the utmost reverence in Islam… and especially when by comparison, we also consider the fact that the mother of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is not mentioned at all in the Qur’an?

And so face it dear Christians, the fact that Prophet Isa (pbuh) and his mother Mariam are indeed mentioned and accorded the utmost reverence in the Qur’an, is really the strongest and most compelling evidence there is that the both of them really did exist in history.

That Jesus never existed is a canard of the philosophes. It goes with the assumption of the first liberal critics of the Bible that the New Testament was written a hundred years afterwards. In large part, this contention is based on the notion that he is a mythical figure, much as Moses and Abraham are supposed to be also. If the liberals will not accept the testomony of the New Testament, why should they value the testimony of a book written six hundred years after Pontius Pilate?

 

[sedonaman]

…
Muslims, on the other hand, can always point to Prophet Isa (pbuh) being mentioned in the Qur’an as proof that Jesus (pbuh) really did exist.

How come, Christians might ask?

Well, why else would a whole chapter in the Qur’an, the holy scripture written in Arabic, be named after a Jewess named Mariam the mother of Prophet Isa (pbuh), were it not for the fact that both mother and son really did exist and are accorded the utmost reverence in Islam… and especially when by comparison, we also consider the fact that the mother of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is not mentioned at all in the Qur’an?

And so face it dear Christians, the fact that Prophet Isa (pbuh) and his mother Mariam are indeed mentioned and accorded the utmost reverence in the Qur’an, is really the strongest and most compelling evidence there is that the both of them really did exist in history.

Guess what. Achilles is mentioned throughout The Iliad. Does that mean he really existed? Hardly. But if we pull your thread, we can conclude that since Mohammed is not mentioned in the Qur’an, he therefore never existed.

 

[swariffin]

No. You couldn’t if you had forever.

I [and plenty of others] have noticed this tactic since coming to CAF several years ago. You will note that the original question was about “Isa of the Qur’an”, and the discussion is now about Jesus of the Bible. They have succeeded once more in turning the question around and demanded that Christians justify their beliefs. I am convinced this is not an accident. A good portion of the Qur’an has this format: “If they [unbelievers] say X, you [believers] respond with Y, and if they say W, you respond with Z.” This is the format they are using here; their answers are canned. Besides, the more time they get you to spend defending Christianity, the less time you have to “insult Islam and Allah’s messenger”, for whenever you merely challenge Mohammed, you have insulted Islam since he is the perfect Muslim.

That is also why Hamba2an, Elwill, and others never address the question that : Quran is the prove of Muhammad, and Muhammad is the prove of Quran.