Who is Jesus in Islam?

[mike7795]

but what you fail to realize is that the Quran adds " it appeared as such"…it is this specific part you must adress before saying it “crept” later because if there was no crucifixion at all, what is it that “appeared” then? in other words, the Quran refutes what you believe in.

inJesus,

What you fail to realize is that many people throughout human history, from all religions, have realized Union with God. As we argue and debate over trivialities, there are those who are beyond them and seeing God face-to-face.

Isn’t that what matters?

Regards,
Mike

 

[planten]

Post from Reggiep:
I said give me a verse in the koran it states that muslims and non-muslims are equal that hasnt been abrogated you guys have yet to do that.

I said non-muslims have 3 options convert peaceful, it not pay jiyza and accept second class status and if not prepare for war and you guys yet to address that.

There is no need to prove that Muslims and non Muslims are equal. They cannot be unless you say that Good and bad are equal. Quran does not say that good and bad are equal. That is a wrong thing sowe leave it alone unless you can prove that good and bad are equal.

The other part of options is also wrong. There was no such thing as mentioned of three choices. It is the theeory of some mind (may even be some muslim mind).

1. There was no compulsion to convert and become Muslim.
2. Jizyah was necessary because that was a war area. The Muslims had to decide between friend and foe. Moreover, the muslims were very few living in the non muslims area. They had to be protected by some treaty with the non muslim rulers.

If the non muslims agreed to co-operate ( by a treaty) and paid some sort of security tax, then not only the muslims living in their country would be safe but the non muslims will also be safe becuase it would be a kind of security / protection tax for that country. The Muslims will fight on behalf the non muslims if they were ever attacked.

1. The third option is the normal consequence of non cooperative / non aligned attitude of that country in the border or middle of the war area. It was a good respectable choice given to the non muslims to decide for themselves what they liked. There was no force at all. There was nothing wrong with that. The non muslim state ha dthe choice of aligning with the enemies of Islam and refuse to pay any tax. They were at liberty.

 

[planten]

Old testament has been replaced by the new testament. All teachings have been abrogated when jesus christ says love your enemy! Not only does he say love your enemy but also turn the other cheek!

No where will you find this in the koran or any hadiths!

That is an unnatural formula, even though the only way for the Jews of that time under subjugation of the Romans. That was a good primary advice to the Jews from Jesus. We Muslims admit it. There was no other way to move ahead.

But please do not make it the final word. There is more in the Quran and better than all that un-natural statemant. There are laws of nature and Islam follows the laws of nature. Your formula of turning the other cheek is absolutely impracticable unless one is fallen down to adverse (depth) deep under. But it has to be adopted at certain times and Jesus did try to use it for his people. Thanks to him.

He was not entirely wrong.

 

[planten]

Next thing you know some mullah is going to come on this site put a fatwa on my *** lol.

Come on bastards fatwa me lol. I wouldnt be surprised if anyone does because there is no freedom in there religion at all.

Muslims the truly devout ones are mindless zombies. There whole aspect of there lives are controlled by islam. When they eat they have to do it a certain way follow certain rituals. For marriage, for divorce, even when they wash there balls you have to do it in an islamic way no joke.

Theres no freedom of thought whatsoever again there mindless zombies every aspect of there life is controlled what they can do and what they cant do, the truly devout muslims really cant think for themselves.

The do’s and don’t’s have been told to the Muslims as they were told to the Jews too. If there is no such thing then where is the guidance!!.

It was bad of the christians to go against the teachings of Jesus and following in the advice of paul, the christians believed that the law was a curse. So the church discarded the law. And now we see the unmarried mothers and a lot of booze and gambling and sex in the christian dominated countries. Who is responsible for that?

That is the result of being a lawless people. Jesus did never say to abondon the Jewish law.

 

[planten]

There mahdi is our anti-christ and vice versa, its all explained when I was reading, contrasting and comparing end of days prophecies for both religions. …

…i dont know maybe in there paradise theres Allah’s viagara lol.

I do not intend to confront you but it is necessary to correct the wrong notions about mahdi and anti-christ here. Mahdi will be a friend and supporter of the promised masiha (Jesus). He will not be an anti christ (Dajjal).
Dajjal (The anti christ) has been identified as the present day Padres (the chritian clergy) who are roaming the world with their false ideas about sin and salvation.
That is according tot he Muslim beliefs.

 

[swariffin]

The do’s and don’t’s have been told to the Muslims as they were told to the Jews too. If there is no such thing then where is the guidance!!.

It was bad of the christians to go against the teachings of Jesus and following in the advice of paul, the christians believed that the law was a curse. So the church discarded the law. And now we see the unmarried mothers and a lot of booze and gambling and sex in the christian dominated countries. Who is responsible for that?

That is the result of being a lawless people. Jesus did never say to abondon the Jewish law.

Dear Planten,

When my grandpa took the Hajj Pilgrimage in Mecca, he was robbed by a masked man. When he made a report to the local policeman, he was asked to sign a written statement in Arabic saying that He would lose his Hajj Status if he could not identify the robber. So, the case was left alone, not being followed up. Definitely there was no police report for that. No wonder the crime rate is low. They are simply unrecorded, so the statistic was low. What a nice judicial system the Saudi has.

 

[planten]

I agree mike all people should be judged by there own merits but thats not the issue of debate here. The issue of debate here is islam! If you truly follow this religion from word to word then you have an so called extremist.
But from what i pointed out extremists are the true muslims and the so called peaceful muslims are unaware of what is really taught in the koran.

There are peaceful muslims and there are terrorists (non-peaceful) who have been pushed into terrorism. They do not represent Islam. That is all a political matter, nothing spiritual. Islam stands for peace.

Consider your writings. If they are peaceful , peacekeeping, then there is no harm to any one and the Muslims will be found to be peaceful. There is nothing wrong in the teachings of Islam. But presently, the muslims have divided into many sects and sections, all having differing beliefs. Just like the Jews and the christians.

So some truely believe in struggle with the bomb. That is not the religious teaching at all. Please note it. Of course there are writings of the early muslim writers who support such bad things about fighting the non believers. But that is not true at all. Some one has done it and we Muslims also have our saints ( Paul) etc. But we do not allow such bad saints to derail our religion like paul did with Jesus teachings.

 

[Verisimilitude]

There are peaceful muslims and there are terrorists (non-peaceful) who have been pushed into terrorism. They do not represent Islam. That is all a political matter, nothing spiritual. Islam stands for peace.

Are you suggesting Islam is not a political ideology as well as a religious one?

Allah has promised those among you who believe, and do righteous good deeds, that He will certainly grant them succession to (the present rulers) in the earth, as He granted it to those before them, and that He will grant them the authority to practise their religion, that which He has chosen for them (i.e. Islam). And He will surely give them in exchange a safe security after their fear (provided) they (believers) worship Me and do not associate anything (in worship) with Me. But whoever disbelieved after this, they are the Fasiqoon (rebellious, disobedient to Allah).
( سورة النور , An-Noor, Chapter #24, Verse #55)

I thought Islam means submission.

Consider your writings. If they are peaceful , peacekeeping, then there is no harm to any one and the Muslims will be found to be peaceful. There is nothing wrong in the teachings of Islam. But presently, the muslims have divided into many sects and sections, all having differing beliefs. Just like the Jews and the christians.

What sect do you subscribe too? Are you of the 80% Sunni, 19% Shiite, or 1% other?

So some truely believe in struggle with the bomb. That is not the religious teaching at all. Please note it.

Jihad (holy fighting in Allahs Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims) though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #216)

Of course there are writings of the early muslim writers who support such bad things about fighting the non believers. But that is not true at all.

Do you deny these early writings?

And say not of those who are killed in the Way of Allah, “They are dead.” Nay, they are living, but you perceive (it) not.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #154)

And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Haram (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #191)

Some one has done it and we Muslims also have our saints ( Paul) etc. But we do not allow such bad saints to derail our religion like paul did with Jesus teachings.

Is Umar a saint?

 

[Angelos]

Are you suggesting Islam is not a political ideology as well as a religious one?

Allah has promised those among you who believe, and do righteous good deeds, that He will certainly grant them succession to (the present rulers) in the earth, as He granted it to those before them, and that He will grant them the authority to practise their religion, that which He has chosen for them (i.e. Islam). And He will surely give them in exchange a safe security after their fear (provided) they (believers) worship Me and do not associate anything (in worship) with Me. But whoever disbelieved after this, they are the Fasiqoon (rebellious, disobedient to Allah).
( سورة النور , An-Noor, Chapter #24, Verse #55)

I thought Islam means submission.

What sect do you subscribe too? Are you of the 80% Sunni, 19% Shiite, or 1% other?

Jihad (holy fighting in Allahs Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims) though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #216)

Do you deny these early writings?

And say not of those who are killed in the Way of Allah, “They are dead.” Nay, they are living, but you perceive (it) not.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #154)

And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Haram (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #191)

Is Umar a saint?

Additional verses from the Koran:

5: 33. The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom.

9: 5. Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

9: 29. **Fight against such of those **who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low. (This is the true meaning of Islam: submission)

9: 73 O Prophet! Strive against **the disbelievers **and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey’s end.

9: 84. And never (O Muhammad) pray for one of them who dieth, nor stand by his grave. Lo! they disbelieved in Allah and His messenger, and they died while they were evil-doers.

98: 6. Lo! **those who disbelieve, among the People of the Scripture **and the idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings.

Peace to all,
Angelos N.B.

 

[Angelos]

It is time to elaborate on the Islamic notion of abrogation since some people here either deliberately or mistakenly cannot separate the weed from the crops and attempt to smear the NT with their misleading claims.

Can we really think and say that Jesus abrogated some precepts of the Mosaic Law through His sermon on the mount? Was the supposed abrogation the same as the abrogation presented in the Islamic Scripture? The answer to these related questions is absolutely NO!

First, the abrogation in the Koran denotes revisions/editions in the writing process of the scripture. In other words, Allah supposedly makes alterations on his one and same revelation. Although Jesus appears to be the new Law giver in Matthew and makes comparisons between what was told Moses and what He Himself teaches, this cannot be likened to the abrogation in the Koran since the things Koran changes are but the things taught by the Koran.

Second, the Koran verse pronouncing abrogation does not necessarily mean that the things abrogated are only verses of the Law. It is clear in the verse below that everything revealed may and does undergo abrogation:

2: 106. Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things?

While delivering His sermon on the mount, Jesus says that His teachings will complete and perfect the Law, making it clear that His teachings do not aim to change all the precepts of the Law or the other teachings in the Torah.

Third, Jesus’ new teachings related to some precepts of the Mosaic Law do not destroy the old teachings since Jesus does not cause all Jew or His followers to forget some verses of the Law. However, the Koran verse in question claims to cause Mohammad to forget some verses, the comparison of which with the new teachings becomes impossible:

2: 106. Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof.

to be continued

 

[FaithofAbraham]

However, the Koran verse in question claims to cause Mohammad to forget some verses, the comparison of which with the new teachings becomes impossible:

2: 106. Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof.

This says NOTHING is forgotten, sounds like you are saying the opposite.

 

[Angelos]

Last, Jesus’ new teachings on some precepts of the Law are based on the concept of perfection and are in accordance with some verses of the Jewish Scripture that precede the Law given to Moses. For instance, Jesus’ teachings on divorce conform to the verse in the book of Genesis. The term abrogation in the Koran is not crucially compatible with the notion of perfection since it says that only some verses of the revelation will be replaced with better ones, some of them remaining similar even after the abrogation.

2: 106. Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, **but we bring (in place) one better **or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things?

Accordingly, the reason underlying the need for abrogation in the Koran is only bound to Allah’s omnipotence.

2: 106. Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. **Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things? **

16: 101. And when We put a revelation in place of (another) revelation, - and **Allah knoweth best what He revealeth **- they say: Lo! thou art but inventing. Most of them know not.

13: 39. Allah effaces what He will, and establishes (what He will), and with Him is the source of ordinance.

17: 86. And if We willed We could withdraw that which We have revealed unto thee, then wouldst thou find no guardian for thee against Us in respect thereof.

Peace to all,
Angelos N.B.

 

[Angelos]

This says NOTHING is forgotten, sounds like you are saying the opposite.

According to your uncanny interpretation, it also says that nothing is abrogated then!

The verse is clear: NOTHING of it … BUT we bring…

Allah abrogates some of his revelation and some he causes to be forgotten, BUT he later replaces the abrogated or forgotten part with something better OR similar.

Peace to all,
Angelos N.B.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

The verse is clear: NOTHING of it … BUT we bring…

Allah abrogates some of his revelation and some he causes to be forgotten, BUT he later replaces the abrogated or forgotten part with something better OR similar.

Well you are twisting it to say the opposite of what it really says.

2: 106. Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten,

NOTHING IS GONE

but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof.

UNDERSTANDING OF IT ONLY EVOLVES

No different than this as I said:

Matthew 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

The original Law is not changed. But its meaning and scope are given more depth.

 

[planten]

Are you suggesting Islam is not a political ideology as well as a religious one?

Allah has promised those among you who believe, and do righteous good deeds, that He will certainly grant them succession to (the present rulers) in the earth, as He granted it to those before them, and that He will grant them the authority to practise their religion, that which He has chosen for them (i.e. Islam). And He will surely give them in exchange a safe security after their fear (provided) they (believers) worship Me and do not associate anything (in worship) with Me. But whoever disbelieved after this, they are the Fasiqoon (rebellious, disobedient to Allah).
( سورة النور , An-Noor, Chapter #24, Verse #55)

I thought Islam means submission.

What sect do you subscribe too? Are you of the 80% Sunni, 19% Shiite, or 1% other?

Jihad (holy fighting in Allahs Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims) though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allah knows but you do not know.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #216)

Do you deny these early writings?

And say not of those who are killed in the Way of Allah, “They are dead.” Nay, they are living, but you perceive (it) not.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #154)

And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-al-Haram (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #191)

Is Umar a saint?

The translation of the verses of the Quran that you have presented is all well in order, quite good. But the verse about killing where ever you find them may be misunderstood. It is not a genearl order. It was about a specific people who had kille dthe Muslims and turned them out of their houses. It was for them only. The other verses do not have any ill meaning. If you require then I could comment on each verse separately.

About Umar being a saint, I have read the article. It is entirely false and misleading. May I tell you about another good order of Umar for the (christian)people of Palestine?? You should try to read that. It is surely available in some museum even today.

When the Muslim forces surrounded the city of jeroshlem, the christians became hopeless so they sent message to the Muslim commander that they were ready to open the gates of the city if the Caliph came there…
The commander sent the news to Umar in the capital Madinah. As soon as Umar heard that, he sent message to the commander not advance into city. He said that he was coming there himself. So Umar rode the camel and went to Jeroshlem.
There were talks. Umar asked them what they wanted. They said they wanted security. Umar ordered all demands to be written down. 1. Security. He agreed. Secirity of life and all property. He agreed. The churches to be left as they were. He agreed. Their symbols and flags. He agreed. In fact, everything they asked for , he agreed and said “All granted”.
A document was written down and umar signed it. But the church leaders could not believe it, how could it be possible that it could be achieved so easily. So they asked for six senior companions of the prophet to authenticate the document. Umar said that he could not ask any one tosign it. It was upto them to do it or not.
But immediately, six senior persons signed the document. And the city was left to the christians… That was Umar. He said that Jeroshlem was the sacred city of the Muslims too. He did not like any blood shed there.

Compare the act of Umar (of no bloodshed in Jeroshlem) with your christian Crusaders who came to that place later and killed thousands of their own (christian) people too, not understanding that they were christians.

Please read some history.

 

[planten]

Angelos: Additional verses from the Koran:

5: 33. The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom

.

Angelos, I will not comment on your entire post. I have selected only the first verse of the Quran that you have presented. Please tell me if any one makes war against the God and the prophet then what should the prophet do?? Sit there and welcome him with open arms?? Please explain all that. If you can explain then only I may look at your other paragraphs post.

 

[Verisimilitude]

…NOTHING IS GONE

but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof.

UNDERSTANDING OF IT ONLY EVOLVES

No different than this as I said:

…The original Law is not changed. But its meaning and scope are given more depth.

Let’s see if it is materialy different:

Koran: Kill them where you find them…
OT: Thouh shalt not kill…

Yep, they are different and something is gone.

Or…one better or the like thereof.

NT: Love your enemies…
Qur’an: Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites…

“Better” might be subjective but like thereof is defeniately a miss.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Please read some history.

I have read many histories and your view is not the same as mine since you only accept Moslem written history. I am not a dhimmi. Please just answer what sect you follow. That will tell me better how to address you.

 

[Verisimilitude]

.

Angelos, I will not comment on your entire post. I have selected only the first verse of the Quran that you have presented. Please tell me if any one makes war against the God and the prophet then what should the prophet do?? Sit there and welcome him with open arms?? Please explain all that. If you can explain then only I may look at your other paragraphs post.

See the example of Jesus Christ and the last week of His earthly Life. Yesterday we celebrated that very theme. Is God so powerless that He needs you (humans) to pick up a sword to defend Him or force people to believe as you (Moslems)?

 

[Angelos]

Well you are twisting it to say the opposite of what it really says.

2: 106. Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten,

NOTHING IS GONE

but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof.

UNDERSTANDING OF IT ONLY EVOLVES

No different than this as I said:

Matthew 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

The original Law is not changed. But its meaning and scope are given more depth.

Dear FaithofAbraham,

First, you seem not to have read my post in its entirety or comprehended it. This might be associated with your weird resistance against the use of the negative structure in English and ignorance of the conjunction BUT. If your reasoning is true and if the Koran verse really means that nothing is forgotten, nothing is abrogated either! In consequence, that verse claims that similar or better verses are brought in vain. However, this is clearly not the case and the sentence overtly states that better or similar verses are always revealed in place of the ones either ABROGATED or deliberately FORGOTTEN.

Second, I agree that in the NT the original Law is not changed, but its meaning and scope are given more depth. In addition, I must remind you the fact that the original Law had been observed for hundreds of years until Christ gave it a deeper scope and meaning. The original Law and Christ’s sermon on the Mount were given at different periods and addressed different community of believers, which is totally different from the notion of abrogation in the Koran. More, the Koran has no firm reason for the abrogation.

Peace to all,
Angelos N.B.