Who is Martin Luther and why was he excommunicated?

[JonNC]

Good question that we may not know the answer and that fact gives Catholics insight into how Lutherans view the Company of Saints and the blessed Virgin Mary, in particular. We do know that Luther prayed the rosary. We also know that there are Lutheran churches in Europe that hold the relics of saints * and that people pray before these shrines in Lutheran cathedrals. Lutheran parishes, especially in Europe, have statues of the St Mary, St Anne, etc. Do Lutherans merely honor these saints with their images? Probably.

 

[Topper17]

In researching Luther and some of the reasons as to why he was excommunicated it appears that because of Luther Tetzel became the victim of the most corrosive ridicule, every foul charge laid on his door, every blasphemous speech placed in his mouth, a veritable fiction and fable built about his personality, in modern history held up as the proverbial money bags and snake oil salesman denied even the support and sympathy of his own allies. Tetzel had to wait the light of modern critical scrutiny, not only for a moral rehabilitation but also for vindication as a soundly trained theologian and monk irreproachable deportment. it was his preaching at Juterberg and Zerbst, towns near Wittenberg, that drew hearers from there who in turn presented themselves to Luther for confession, that made him take the step he did then a year earlier, to post his 95 Theses in response to what Tetzel was doing.
The doctrines was open to misunderstanding by the laity; that the preach in the heat of rhetorical enthusiasm fell into exaggerated statements, on that the financial considerations attached, although were not obligatory, led to abuses and scandals. The opposition to indulgences, not to the doctrine which remains the same to today, but the mercantile methods pursed in preaching were not new. Duke George of Saxony prohibited them in his territory, which was where Tetzel was preaching on indulgences.

Tetzel more readily than some of the contemporary brilliant theologians saw the revolutionary import of the 95 Theses, which while ostensibly aimed at the abuse of indulgences, were a covert attach on the whole penitentical system of the CC and struck at the very root of ecclesiastical authority. Luther’s 95 Theses impresses the reader “as thrown together somewhat in haste,” rather ’ than showing carefully digested thought, and delicate theological intention; they “bear him ome moment into the audacity of rebellion and then carry him back to the obedience of conformity” (Beard,218,219).

Tetzel Theses opposed Luther’s innovations, the traditional teachings of the CC; Johann Eck, Vice-Chancellor of the University of Ingoldstadt, acknowledged as one of the foremost theological scholars of his day, singled out no less than 18 of Luther’s Theses as concealing the grem of Hussite Heresy, violating Christian charity, subverting the order of the ecclesiastical hierarchy, and breeding sedition. (Losches,op.cit.,II, 325).

What this is telling is that Luther was already forming new ideas concerning doctrines and how the CC should be ran long before Tetzel and indulgences sparked the flame Luther used to post his 95 Theses. Luther was forming contrary thinking long before 1519
, and even his professors told him that he was faulty in his thinking. No wonder that he was excommunicated in the end.

Hi Spina,

Your recent posts have been even better than usual. Very informative and right on the mark.

BTW, have you noticed that we are seeing posts about the invocation of the Saints and looking at pictures of Martin Chemitz holding a rosary? And this without even one Lutheran call to return to the subject of the PO. Do you think it might have anything to do with the fact that the OP is about Martin Luther and why he was excommunicated?

God Bless You Spina, Topper

 

[spina1953]

Hi Spina,

Your recent posts have been even better than usual. Very informative and right on the mark.

BTW, have you noticed that we are seeing posts about the invocation of the Saints and looking at pictures of Martin Chemitz holding a rosary? And this without even one Lutheran call to return to the subject of the PO. Do you think it might have anything to do with the fact that the OP is about Martin Luther and why he was excommunicated?

God Bless You Spina, Topper

Hi Topper: I also wondered about that too, I seem to remember that in the creed we say the communion of saints, yet, it seems that Lutherans, at those who say that they say the creed guess they do not really understand what that means. Peace and God bless

 

[benhur]

Hi Ben,

Somewhere along the line we got off the track. I have no idea what you are talking about and maybe you feel the same way. I made a point, probably badly, but it seems we are probably talking about different things here. Could you please write something from your perspective that could possibly get us back on the same page.

God Bless You Ben, Topper

Or if you would prefer, just let me know and I will find that post and see if I can make it really clear as to what I am saying. Your choice.

Think it was post 130 or 131 .just follow posts back (hit blue arrow), here is what you posted : “As we have seen, Tetzel’s claims about indulgences were in line with the teachings of the Church. Luther went off half-cocked and made a mountain out of a non-issue. I don’t hold Tetzel completely harmless, but it was Luther who escalated the matter FAR past where it needed to go. If there was a lack of sincerity of repentance, then how did Luther’s challenging of so many doctrines address that problem? Exactly – not at all.”

 

[McCartney]

Well stated. There certainly are Lutherans who pray the full Hail Mary; personally I have no problems with it. We know that holy Mary is in Heaven and that she prays for the Church so acknowledging with gratitude her role is acceptable to Lutherans.

I am so happy to know this.

 

[guanophore]

What this is telling is that Luther was already forming new ideas concerning doctrines and how the CC should be ran long before Tetzel and indulgences sparked the flame Luther used to post his 95 Theses. Luther was forming contrary thinking long before 1519 , and even his professors told him that he was faulty in his thinking. No wonder that he was excommunicated in the end.

I think if not before, it began when he travelled to Rome, and was so appalled with the decadence of the heirarchy and the suffering of the faithful. I think he went to Rome expecting it to be a reflection of how he understood the Holy Mother Church, and found it quite different.

I don’t think it was Luthers’ heterodoxy as much as his attitude. He was a very stubborn man, with a significant degree of hubris.

Almost all the saints nad doctors of the Church have been silenced or removed from ministry at some point. Those who accepted this with humility were mightly used by God in a transformative way in the Church. Luther was right about a great many of his complaints, but he insisted on being recognized as right, and would not budge. When he pitted himself against Leo X (who had the same kind of personality) it was a recipe for ruin.

That being said, I am not sure that any amount of silence or waiting would have been enough. Most saints and Doctors were restored to ministry, preaching, etc, but I really doubt he ever would have been.

 

[Topper17]

Think it was post 130 or 131 .just follow posts back (hit blue arrow), here is what you posted : “As we have seen, Tetzel’s claims about indulgences were in line with the teachings of the Church. Luther went off half-cocked and made a mountain out of a non-issue. I don’t hold Tetzel completely harmless, but it was Luther who escalated the matter FAR past where it needed to go. If there was a lack of sincerity of repentance, then how did Luther’s challenging of so many doctrines address that problem? Exactly – not at all.”

Hi Ben.

Thanks for your response.

In fact I stand by that statement. Why do you disagree? Specifically.

God bless you Ben.

 

[JonNC]

Hi Spina,

Your recent posts have been even better than usual. Very informative and right on the mark.

BTW, have you noticed that we are seeing posts about the invocation of the Saints and looking at pictures of Martin Chemitz holding a rosary? And this without even one Lutheran call to return to the subject of the PO. Do you think it might have anything to do with the fact that the OP is about Martin Luther and why he was excommunicated?

God Bless You Spina, Topper

The title of the thread begins “who is Martin Luther…” ISTM a discussion by posters about his mariology and whether or not he prayed the Rosary fit into the topic. The mention and picture of Chemitz were part of that.

Jon

 

[Topper17]

The title of the thread begins “who is Martin Luther…” ISTM a discussion by posters about his mariology and whether or not he prayed the Rosary fit into the topic. The mention and picture of Chemitz were part of that.

Jon

Hi Jon,

Maybe it’s an eye of the beholder. All I know is that when I get far less off subject than Chemnitz is here, you mention that we need to get back to the subject of the OP

It seems though that when the subject of the OP is Luther and his excommunication, you are ‘more willing’ to allow the subject to stray. Of course the excommunication aspect is bound to dredge up unflattering information about Luther. Now Chemitz praying the rosary is a much ‘better aspect’ of the subject of Luther’s excommunication as I am sure you would agree.

I’m just sayin.

BTW. I have a great recipe for Green Chile Stew if you would like me to take the time to post it.

God Bless You Jon, Topper

 

[Topper17]

Hi Jon,

Maybe it’s an eye of the beholder thing. All I know is that when I get far less off subject than Chemnitz is here on this thread, you mention that we need to get back to the subject of the OP

It seems though that when the subject of the OP is Luther and his excommunication, you are ‘more willing’ to allow the subject to stray. Of course the excommunication aspect is bound to dredge up unflattering information about Luther. Now Chemitz praying the rosary is a much ‘better aspect’ of the subject of Luther’s excommunication as I am sure you would agree.

I’m just sayin.

BTW. I have a great recipe for Green Chile Stew if you would like me to take the time to post it.

God Bless You Jon, Topper

 

[JonNC]

Hi Jon,

Maybe it’s an eye of the beholder. All I know is that when I get far less off subject than Chemnitz is here, you mention that we need to get back to the subject of the OP

It seems though that when the subject of the OP is Luther and his excommunication, you are ‘more willing’ to allow the subject to stray. Of course the excommunication aspect is bound to dredge up unflattering information about Luther. Now Chemitz praying the rosary is a much ‘better aspect’ of the subject of Luther’s excommunication as I am sure you would agree.

I’m just sayin.

BTW. I have a great recipe for Green Chile Stew if you would like me to take the time to post it.

God Bless You Jon, Topper

Tim
No one is stopping from posting the Catholic documents and reasons for Luther’s excommunication.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Tim
No one is stopping from posting the Catholic documents and reasons for Luther’s excommunication.

Jon

papalencyclicals.net/Leo10/l10exdom.htm

bookofconcord.org/decet-romanum.php

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, Spina for your information and others clarifying the role of Fr Tetzel in all of this because I had the impression he was some kind of pastoral heretic.

What is the Hussite heresy…because it sounds ethnic and nationalistic…stages of where we all are in our ‘purgative and illuminative’ growth in spiritual maturity to achieve union with the Lord in this life…

Also very interesting to read that Luther prayed the rosary up to his death and the reformers all had devotion to the Blessed Virgin.

Thanks to all!

 

[Denise1957]

Luther was right about a great many of his complaints, but he insisted on being recognized as right, and would not budge. When he pitted himself against Leo X (who had the same kind of personality) it was a recipe for ruin.

What great many complaints was Luther right about? Are you referring to his 95 theses, or something else?

 

[spina1953]

I think if not before, it began when he travelled to Rome, and was so appalled with the decadence of the heirarchy and the suffering of the faithful. I think he went to Rome expecting it to be a reflection of how he understood the Holy Mother Church, and found it quite different.

I don’t think it was Luthers’ heterodoxy as much as his attitude. He was a very stubborn man, with a significant degree of hubris.

Almost all the saints nad doctors of the Church have been silenced or removed from ministry at some point. Those who accepted this with humility were mightly used by God in a transformative way in the Church. Luther was right about a great many of his complaints, but he insisted on being recognized as right, and would not budge. When he pitted himself against Leo X (who had the same kind of personality) it was a recipe for ruin.

That being said, I am not sure that any amount of silence or waiting would have been enough. Most saints and Doctors were restored to ministry, preaching, etc, but I really doubt he ever would have been.

Hi Guanophore: I agree, however, from what I have been reading and researching, it seems that Luther may not have gone to Rome, that there is some debate on the matter. This is not to say that Luther did not go, but that its possible that he did not as it is from Luther himself that he says that he went to Rome. So far I have not been able to find any document or anything else that says one or the other that he did or did not go to Rome. I am trying to find that out either way.

From by research it does seem that while we can say that Luther was a very stubborn man there seems to be some heterodoxy in the man, who that exactly happened is sure to be up for debate to say the least. I also think because it seems to me that Luther when he became a doctor of Theology that it quite went to his head and his ego grew, and coupled with his fear of not being saved only caused him to narrow minded in his thinking on indulgences as well as in other doctrinal matters. You I think made a good point in that it is very doubtful that Luther in any way could be silenced, and pitting himself against a strong personality like Pope Leo X was a ready made for ruin. I do agree that there were some things that needed to be reformed and Luther I see pointed out some of them but when he decided that he was correct and the CC was wrong and would not accept what he was promoting, it set him off, and over time it just got worse and worse to the point that hatred consumed him and those who opposed him.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

EvangelCatholic;12242919:

I suspect Luther’s mariology changed over the years, if his writings are any measure. Smalcald is rather harsh on the issue, though even there his concern seems more to do with practices that rose up around it.
Even so, Martin Chemnitz appears to have prayed the Rosary, as this painting of him shows his Rosary beads in his hand.

Jon

Here’s a video of veneration to St Brigitta in a Lutheran cathedral and a comment by the author of the footage.

youtube.com/watch?v=1aMjfPD8tmg&list=UU3Gslho0WaIdmvV6bKCKw_w

About Martin Luther: About Martin Luther: The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart. (Sermon, September 1, 1522). The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart. (Sermon, September 1, 1522). Whoever possesses a good (firm) faith, says the Hail Mary without danger! Whoever is weak in faith can utter no Hail Mary without danger to his salvation. (Sermon, March 11, 1523).

 

[guanophore]

What great many complaints was Luther right about? Are you referring to his 95 theses, or something else?

Many of them were found subtantial, and addressed in the counter - reformation.

Certainly his perceptions of the degrading of Christian witness on his visit to Rome were accurate. There, as well as in all of Europe, Bishops lived in opulance and kept mistresses.

He was right that it is important for the faithful to read and pray the scriptures daily.

He was right that Christ is really and truly present in the Eucharist.

Probably most important was his insistence that salvation is by grace, through faith, and not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[guanophore]

Hi Guanophore: I agree, however, from what I have been reading and researching, it seems that Luther may not have gone to Rome, that there is some debate on the matter. This is not to say that Luther did not go, but that its possible that he did not as it is from Luther himself that he says that he went to Rome. So far I have not been able to find any document or anything else that says one or the other that he did or did not go to Rome. I am trying to find that out either way.

I thought that Abbot Staupitz sent Luther on pilgrimage to Rome because he was so disquieted (scrupulous) that he did not feel forgiven even right after confession?

Luther visited the shrines and possibly ascended Pilate’s staircase on his knees, as most pilgrims did at the time. As a monk he would have had access to areas of the Holy City that the average Christian pilgrim did not, which is why he may have been able to observe priests & bishops acting immorally & abusing their power. I must confess I never understood his comment “I went with onions & returned with garlic”. What does that mean?

From by research it does seem that while we can say that Luther was a very stubborn man there seems to be some heterodoxy in the man, who that exactly happened is sure to be up for debate to say the least. I also think because it seems to me that Luther when he became a doctor of Theology that it quite went to his head and his ego grew, and coupled with his fear of not being saved only caused him to narrow minded in his thinking on indulgences as well as in other doctrinal matters. You I think made a good point in that it is very doubtful that Luther in any way could be silenced, and pitting himself against a strong personality like Pope Leo X was a ready made for ruin. I do agree that there were some things that needed to be reformed and Luther I see pointed out some of them but when he decided that he was correct and the CC was wrong and would not accept what he was promoting, it set him off, and over time it just got worse and worse to the point that hatred consumed him and those who opposed him.

 

[Denise1957]

Many of them were found subtantial, and addressed in the counter - reformation.

Certainly his perceptions of the degrading of Christian witness on his visit to Rome were accurate. There, as well as in all of Europe, Bishops lived in opulance and kept mistresses.

He was right that it is important for the faithful to read and pray the scriptures daily.

He was right that Christ is really and truly present in the Eucharist.

Probably most important was his insistence that salvation is by grace, through faith, and not of works, lest any man should boast.

It might be a good idea to find out which of his ideas were found sound and which were addressed in the counter-reformation. I assume that you are referring to Trent, where more firm rules were promulgated regarding indulgences. That doesn’t mean, though, that Luther’s views on indulgences were correct. All it means, as far I can tell, is that abuses were reigned in.

You mention that Luther was right about reading scriptures daily. Well, how were the faithful going to read scripture daily when there was not really a way to make Bibles available for everyone?

Regarding his being right about the Eucharist - well, that’s just Church teaching, which he happened to agree with.

 

[spina1953]

Thanks, Spina for your information and others clarifying the role of Fr Tetzel in all of this because I had the impression he was some kind of pastoral heretic.

What is the Hussite heresy…because it sounds ethnic and nationalistic…stages of where we all are in our ‘purgative and illuminative’ growth in spiritual maturity to achieve union with the Lord in this life…

Also very interesting to read that Luther prayed the rosary up to his death and the reformers all had devotion to the Blessed Virgin.

Thanks to all!

Hi KathleenGee: Thanks so much for you support. Tetzel as I have been researching was not the pastoral heretic so many seem to think. In fact he was a Doctor of Theology and well informed on CC teachings. His Rebuttal against Luther’s 95 Theses shows that he correctly understood what Luther was doing, but Luther when anyone opposed him and his teachings drew his ire and irked him to no end and would make the most violent and false attacks against them.

The Catholic Encyclopedia has a nice article on the Hussite’s and also Jan Hus who it seems was greatly influenced by Wyclife and his writings and teachings. The errors of Hus concerned chiefly the nature of the Church( only the predestined ), the papal headship, the rugof faith (Scripture and the Law of Christ) Communion under both kinds, auricular confession (unnecessary) civil authority ( dependent among Christians on state of grace, the belief on the sufficiency of Scripture as the basis of Wyclife’s teachings, because it provided an alternative to the authority of the CC. The Hussite heresy was both national and ethnic rebellion which really has no bearing on any real spiritual growth or gaining any spiritual union with Christ.

Many of the Reformer’s were or had devotion to the Blesses Mother, this was even true of Queen Elizabeth of England though it was hidden from all.