Who is Martin Luther and why was he excommunicated?

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Would you name those Catholic apologists to whom you refer and some quotes demonstrating their polemics against Luther?

Thanks,
Annie
One is Johannes Cochlaeus. New Advent has an article on him that substantiates his tone. I found this:
Luther is a child of the devil, possessed by the devil, full of falsehood and vainglory. His revolt was caused by monkish envy of the Dominican, Tetzel; he lusts after wine and women, is without conscience, and approves any means to gain his end. He thinks only of himself. He perpetrated the act of nailing up the theses for forty two gulden- the sum he required to buy a new cowl. He is a liar and a hypocrite, cowardly and quarrelsome. There is no drop of German blood in him…” [6]

“He refers to Luther as a child of the devil, the fruit of a union of Satan with Luther’s mother who later regretted not having murdered him in the cradle. His fellow monks knew him as a demon-possessed quarreler who lusted after drink and sex, without conscience, ready to use any means to further his own plans. Demonic monstrosities boiled out of his powerful but perverted mind. At Luther’s death, this “father” appears to drag him off to hell.”[7]

“Cochlaeus did not go about his difficult work with the coolness and detachment of a non-partisan historian, nor did he think it a fault not to do so. He felt his readers should not only be informed about Lutheranism, but also made fully aware that Luther had devastated the Church and had brought unutterable misery to his German homeland. Every deprecation, slander and evil legend was snatched up by the author: he asserted, for example, that Luther entered into the indulgence battle against Tetzel because, as an Augustinian, he was jealous of the lucrative indulgence trade enjoyed by Tetzel and the Dominicans. Another story had it that Luther already as a fifteen-year-old lad was indulging in immoral relations with his benefactress, Frau Cotta zu Eisenach; that he lived a riotous student life in Erfurt; and that during his first period in the cloister Luther lived in concubineage with three nuns, from which experience, he is supposed to have contracted venereal disease.”[8]

“By his own admission, Cochlaeus set out to make his readers feel revulsion toward Luther… Cochlaeus did use Luther’s own works, citing from or referring to 140 writings of the reformer. In selecting for citation, Cochlaeus had an eye especially for passages in which Luther attacked Catholic doctrines and institutions. The excerpts were to show the reader a Luther quite reckless in polemics, clearly destructive of church, clergy, and sacraments. Cochlaeus depicts Luther as the cause of the violence in Germany in 1525, when the peasants revolted, and laments the desolation of his native land, all due to Luther’s heresies and defiance. Luther, according to Cochlaeus, was not even consistent, but kept changing his views as occasion suggested.”[9]

“Cochlaeus found Luther to be a man full of evil intentions and ambitions, and he was clear that jealousy, selfishness, hypocrisy, and a desire for notoriety ultimately motivated all the Reformer’s actions. No good was to be expected of such a man, and no defamation seemed too base to be left unmentioned. In his Sincere and Thorough Apology for Duke Georg of Saxony of 1533, Cochlaeus thus willingly accepted Peter Sylvius’s fable of Luther’s creation by the Devil; and although in the Commentaria he expressed some doubt about the truth of the rumour, he remained convinced that, as a destroyer of the Church and the German nation, Luther was an agent of Satan himself. Such obsession with the person of Martin Luther made Cochlaeus blind to the wider context of the Reformation, and his writings in consequence show remarkable ignorance and misjudgement of the German political situation, of growing lay interest in the shaping of Church life, and of the intellectual outlook of the new learning.”[10]

Protestant scholar Robert Kolb notes that Cochlaeus saw Luther as “an agent of the devil, a perversion, and a monster.”[11] Cochlaeus best expressed this portrayal of Luther as a seven-headed dragon, in a book as well as in an accompanying artistic portrayal.[12] Cochlaeus explains the picture:

“It is indeed a miracle and surpasses all reason and understanding, however sublime and venerable, that in one deity there are three, and these three deities are one—one in substance, yet three in person. But in one cowl of this one Luther, there are seven, and these seven Luthers are not only one in substance, but even in person. An extraordinary theology indeed, hitherto unheard of not only among Jews and heathens, but also among Christians! In the old, most Christian Evangel, there was one heart among the multitude of believers and one soul; yet in this new Evangel one heart and flesh are cut apart into many heads, and not only is it that diverse people hold diverse opinions, but one and the same mind grows several heads next to itself.”[13]
This I also found heresyandbeauty.wordpress.com/2010/01/26/image-wars-in-the-age-of-reformation/

In a five second Google search on “contemporary Catholic polemics against Luther” I found over 1.6 million results.
 
Actually **I stand **by my comments. What I said was: “It is an undeniable and obvious FACT that a man such as this should not have been a priest and he certainly should not have been allowed as a Christian Theologian and Scriptural Exegete to teach Christian priests in training…”

In this, all** I am doing is standing** behind the decision of my Church. r
As Guanophore showed, you are in the wrong and refuse to recant. You really need to consider my advice to talk to someone - I am not equipped to help you, nor is this Forum the place for you to straighten out what is obviously wrong between you and your Church. You have not convinced us of Luther’s problems as much as that you have the problems you accuse Luther of having.

“Here I stand” - even your wording is like Luther’s.
 
One is Johannes Cochlaeus. New Advent has an article on him that substantiates his tone. I found this:
You cited New Advent as a source for the seven paragraphs of info on Johannes Caochlaeus, but I didn’t see any of the quotes that you gave on the New Advent link. Can you provide the source of the seven quotes you gave? Would I be right in thinking that the source for the quotes is from a Protestant site?
 
You cited New Advent as a source for the seven paragraphs of info on Johannes Caochlaeus, but I didn’t see any of the quotes that you gave on the New Advent link. Can you provide the source of the seven quotes you gave? Would I be right in thinking that the source for the quotes is from a Protestant site?
My mistake. On rereading it I can see that you could think I meant the quotes were on NA. They are not. They are from here, which is a Protestant site.
 
One is Johannes Cochlaeus. New Advent has an article on him that substantiates his tone. I found this:

This I also found heresyandbeauty.wordpress.com/2010/01/26/image-wars-in-the-age-of-reformation/

In a five second Google search on “contemporary Catholic polemics against Luther” I found over 1.6 million results.
I looked at the two sources you provided and did not see anything that you wrote that that Johannes Cochlaseus said? guess I just have to my own looking for it and research it.
 
Hi quano,

Thanks for your response.
No, Topper, this is not the case. The Church found Luther to be adequate material, or they would not have ordained him in the first place. There is nothing in the documents that indicates that the Church thought a “mistake” was made at his ordination.

Furthermore, the seal of the priesthood, like that of baptism, is permanent. The church cannot remove something that God has placed in a human soul, just as the Church cannot grant a divorce.

Excommunication is a discipline of the Church, intended to motivate the erroneous to return to the fold. It does not remove the seal of baptism, or of Holy Orders.
Actually what you say here is correct - as far as it goes. In fact, during the first year in the monastery Luther’s horrible terrors were kept in check by his keeping to the monastic regulations. During this initial period in the monastery, there was none of the extremely odd behavior which caused his fellow monks to later ‘wonder’ about him.

“To his superiors Luther seemed fitted for the career of a theologian both by his natural ability and his university training, and accordingly as soon as he had taken the vow he began to prepare himself for the priesthood.” Protestant Theologian Arthur Cushman McGiffert, “Martin Luther”, pg. 25

“seemed fitted”

However, the peace that Luther achieved during the beginning of his monastery years was not to hold.

“**Unspeakable fear issuing in bodily prostration was also at work in him on the occasion of the already related incident in the choir of the Erfurt convent, when he fell to the ground crying out that he was not the man possessed. **Not only does Dungersheim relate it, on the strength of what he had heard from inmates of the monastery, but Cochlaeus also speaks of the incident, in his “Acta,” and, again, in coarse and unseemly language in the book he wrote in 1533, entitled " Von der Apostasey," doubtless also drawing his information from the Augustinian monks: “It is notorious how Luther came to be a monk; how he collapsed in choir, bellowing like a bull when the Gospel of the man possessed was being read ; how he behaved himself in the monastery,” etc. **We may recall, how, according to Cochlaeus, his brother monks suspected Luther, owing to this attack and on account of a “certain singularity of manner,” of being either under diabolical influence or an epileptic." **Grisar VI, pg. 101

“His state of mind gave his superiors much concern. Few were able to understand him. Some thought him unbalanced in mind; others suspected he was under the control of evil spirits.** In later days his enemies pointed to his unhappy experiences in the convent as proof of demoniacal possession**, and he himself interpreted them as assaults of his lifelong antagonist, the devil.” McGiffert, pg 29-30

When we look at the evidence of Luther’s bizarre behavior in the monastery and the reports that his fellow monks worried about his sanity, it is incomprehensible that he would be promoted to a position where he was not only a Priest, but a Professor responsible for training Priests. Staupitz is at the center of those promotions. He is also, according to Luther, the one who ‘inspired’ Luther to discover Salvation by Faith Alone (Ozment, ‘Age’, pg. 232)

In fact, it was Father Staupitz who heard Luther’s confessions, some of which lasted for 6 hours.

It was also Staupitz who (in 1518) after Luther’s ‘interview’ with Cardinal Cajetan, released Luther from his vows as a monk, the first of his three ‘excommunications’. It was also at that meeting that Staupitz told Cajetan that he had often tried to get Luther to recant and return to the teaching of the Church. However, by that time, Luther was not turning back. Staupitz ended up not returning Luther’s letters which pained him to no end.
I will agree that, though a priest may have valid Holy Orders, the Church does have the right and the privilege to direct his ministry. Exsurge Domine removed his faculty to preach, teach, and write, and Luther refused to accept this - refuled to be silent.

Actually, a priest going astray and an attempt made to reign him in is not the same as saying he never should have been ordained. Yes, there are some who may have become priests who should not have been, but the Church begins with the assumption that the seal of the priesthood is valid and appropriate.
Whether the seal of the priesthood is valid and appropriate is not the point. The point is that some men who become priests are not at all suited for it. Personally, I agree with Harvard Professor Steven Ozment, and find that “it is incomprehensible that he would be promoted to a position where he was not only a Priest, but a Professor responsible for training Priests.”

Father and Doctor Staupitz is the man responsible for the elevation of Luther to the priesthood, getting him to agree to study thelogy (against Luther’s protests), and also assigning him to teach at the University of Wittenberg. Given the fact that Staupitz released Luther from his vows after the ‘interview’ with Cajatan, and ended up refusing to return his letters, do you somehow not believe that Staupitz believed he had made mistakes in recommending Luther for these roles?

Of course in the Reformation there is more than enough blame to go around, but for me, I place a lot of blame on Father Stapitz.

It would seem that if we really want to know who Luther was, we should probably spend some more time investigating his monastery years.
 
One is Johannes Cochlaeus. New Advent has an article on him that substantiates his tone. I found this:

This I also found heresyandbeauty.wordpress.com/2010/01/26/image-wars-in-the-age-of-reformation/

In a five second Google search on “contemporary Catholic polemics against Luther” I found over 1.6 million results.
Gosh. I guess Luther bashing is a popular pasttime and has been for a long time!

I notice that finding fault with other people distracts one’s attention from working on their own issues.
 
Very impressive work professor Quid! 👍
You can see that some of the fabrications about the man are still being passed around as truth today, even on this thread. Cochlaeus is quoted as a creditable source. Spreading lies (I think there is a commandment about that) does not help heal divisions.
 
James,
This is a mis-reading of page 194. Brecht isn’t saying this at all. Rather, Brecht is describing what Luther is saying in Theses 27-29. Simply go and read Theses 27-29, and also note that in context, Brecht is describing Luther’s points section by section in the 95 Theses. It’s Luther saying that the phrase is questionable!

On page 182 Brecht explains that the phrase, “As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs” had been around as early as 1482. I don’t recall a discussion from Brecht in this section exactly as to whether Tetzel said it or not.

Regardless, while Tetzel may not have coined the phrase, he certainly taught it’s sentiment.
James, I went to your Public Profile page here and then linked to your blog “Beggars All Reformation” which was listed there. On your blog I found the following article, which you wrote last year:

“Luther: The Roman Church is Basically Christian?”, Sunday, June 09, 2013

What interested me the most is the last paragraph in which you volunteered the following:

“I’ve been asked from time to time if I think Roman Catholics are fellow Christians. It certainly is possible that God has preserved a remnant of believers within the Roman church despite Trent’s anathematizing the Gospel. On the other hand, of those who zealously defend Rome, I do not consider these people to be Christians. I think such people are those who need to be either evangelized or refuted. Luther refers to Rome’s defenders as a “breed of men condemned long ago, with corrupted minds [1 Tim. 6:5]” (LW 60:216).”

beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2013/06/luther-roman-church-is-basically.html

I think that this is an interesting perspective from which to dialogue with Catholics on a Catholic apologetics site. Given that this is the way that you honestly really feel about Catholics, assuming it’s all the same to you, I am going to have to pass on responding to you – permanently.
 
“seemed fitted”

However, the peace that Luther achieved during the beginning of his monastery years was not to hold.
I not at all sure that Luther ever achieved “peace” until he finally arrived at “grace alone” many years later.

He joined the strictest order he could find, and I think what kept his obsessive guilt in check, if it ever really was, related to the penitential activities.
“It is notorious how Luther came to be a monk; how he collapsed in choir, bellowing like a bull when the Gospel of the man possessed was being read ; how he behaved himself in the monastery,” etc. **We may recall, how, according to Cochlaeus, his brother monks suspected Luther, owing to this attack and on account of a “certain singularity of manner,” of being either under diabolical influence or an epileptic." **Grisar VI, pg. 101
It is very difficult, if not impossible, to diagnose someone 500 years in the past, based only upon extant documents. Certainly very many manifestations that we now understand as symptoms of mental illness were considered demonic.

Even modern persons will say that they feel demonized by their OCD.
Code:
  ** In later days his enemies pointed to his unhappy experiences in the convent as proof of demoniacal possession** McGiffert, pg 29-30
20/20 hindsight…apparently everyone’s doubts were not sufficient to prevent him from becoming ordained?

Whatever else you can say about the man, he was certainly passionate about his faith.
Code:
 When we look at the evidence of Luther’s bizarre behavior in the monastery and the reports that his fellow monks worried about his sanity, it is incomprehensible that he would be promoted to a position where he was not only a Priest, but a Professor responsible for training Priests.
It is difficult for us, since our society is so different, ,but you have to realize that monasteries were a collection point for odd, mentally ill, and other social outcasts. Some were forced into monasteries instead of prison or exile, and they cared for many people that did not have the constitution to survive on their own (today’s homeless population.
Code:
Staupitz is at the center of those promotions. He is also, according to Luther, the one who ‘inspired’ Luther to discover Salvation by Faith Alone (Ozment, ‘Age’, pg. 232)
The bottom line is that God did not prevent this from happening. The Church weeds out most of those who go into discernment for the priesthood. Evidently, despite his oddities, he looked like a better candidate then many others. His passion perhaps made people set aside their concerns?
In fact, it was Father Staupitz who heard Luther’s confessions, some of which lasted for 6 hours.
no one could know better that he was completely pre-occupied by his faith and could think of nothing else! Maybe Staupitz thought he would grow out of it?
Code:
 released Luther from his vows as a monk, the first of his three ‘excommunications’.
Being released from religious life / vows of a monk is not an excommunication. There are plenty of people who take vows in a community and either they, ,or the community, or both, determine it is not a good match or that there is another vocation which supercedes it .

Even if a person has difficulty fitting in with the charism of a certain community and is asked to leave, it is not anything like an “excommunication”.
Whether the seal of the priesthood is valid and appropriate is not the point.
It is if you are claiming the church made a “mistake” in ordaining him and if you believe excommunication was an attempt to undo it.
Code:
 The point is that some men who become priests are not at all suited for it.
You will get no argument from me on this point, but it is not an occasion to vilify those who were misdirected, and their spiritual directors failed to intervene.
Code:
Personally, I agree with Harvard Professor Steven Ozment, and find that “it is incomprehensible that he would be promoted to a position where he was not only a Priest, but a Professor responsible for training Priests.”
This is your perogative, of course, but it is not right to forward your opinion and his as if it were the position of the CC.
Father and Doctor Staupitz is the man responsible for the elevation of Luther to the priesthood, getting him to agree to study thelogy (against Luther’s protests), and also assigning him to teach at the University of Wittenberg.
Then I guess this is an opportunity for you to spread some of the blame around! By all means, as many people who can be found to be at fault should not be left out!
Of course in the Reformation there is more than enough blame to go around, but for me, I place a lot of blame on Father Stapitz.
I will pray for you, Topper, that God will reveal to you the reality that blame is not life giving, and is an ultimately defeating posture to take in life. It is closely tied with resentment, and resentment is closely tied to unforgiveness.
It would seem that if we really want to know who Luther was, we should probably spend some more time investigating his monastery years.
If you think this will improve your sanctity, then I commend you to it. :highprayer:
 
James,

James, I went to your Public Profile page here and then linked to your blog “Beggars All Reformation” which was listed there. On your blog I found the following article, which you wrote last year:

“Luther: The Roman Church is Basically Christian?”, Sunday, June 09, 2013

What interested me the most is the last paragraph in which you volunteered the following:

“I’ve been asked from time to time if I think Roman Catholics are fellow Christians. It certainly is possible that God has preserved a remnant of believers within the Roman church despite Trent’s anathematizing the Gospel. On the other hand, of those who zealously defend Rome, I do not consider these people to be Christians. I think such people are those who need to be either evangelized or refuted. Luther refers to Rome’s defenders as a “breed of men condemned long ago, with corrupted minds [1 Tim. 6:5]” (LW 60:216).”

beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2013/06/luther-roman-church-is-basically.html

I think that this is an interesting perspective from which to dialogue with Catholics on a Catholic apologetics site. Given that this is the way that you honestly really feel about Catholics, assuming it’s all the same to you, I am going to have to pass on responding to you – permanently.
Hi Topper: I also saw that site Beggars All Reformation and when I looked at the part where you click on to Using Popular Protestant Luther Biography to discredit Luther I saw that James Swan as Tertlium Quid had posted Toppers CAF post on the site and when I saw that I thought it not very nice to post someone post on another site without permission from the poster. I think Topper you might want to notify the mods about that and see if someone can take posts from CAF and post it on another site without permission from the one who made the post. Now because of it I will no long reply to any posts by Tertlium Quid.

I would like to add this and I quote" One good thing about CA Forums is that they have a word count. My original response was much longer, but I edited it down to CA’s parameters." This was in response to your Post using it to make an anti-Catholic point.
 
James, I went to your Public Profile page here and then linked to your blog “Beggars All Reformation” which was listed there. On your blog I found the following article, which you wrote last year:

“Luther: The Roman Church is Basically Christian?”, Sunday, June 09, 2013

What interested me the most is the last paragraph in which you volunteered the following:

“I’ve been asked from time to time if I think Roman Catholics are fellow Christians. It certainly is possible that God has preserved a remnant of believers within the Roman church despite Trent’s anathematizing the Gospel. On the other hand, of those who zealously defend Rome, I do not consider these people to be Christians. I think such people are those who need to be either evangelized or refuted. Luther refers to Rome’s defenders as a “breed of men condemned long ago, with corrupted minds [1 Tim. 6:5]” (LW 60:216).”

beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2013/06/luther-roman-church-is-basically.html

I think that this is an interesting perspective from which to dialogue with Catholics on a Catholic apologetics site. Given that this is the way that you honestly really feel about Catholics, assuming it’s all the same to you, I am going to have to pass on responding to you – permanently.
This is an off topic post, Topper, but I find your reaction curious. He has come to a thread discussion the reasons for the excommunication of Luther. Everyone is welcome to participate in CAF discussions, so long as they follow the forum rules.

So here is an opportunity to actually dialogue with a LIVE person who has anti-catholic sentiments, and you are putting him on the “silent treatment”?!

Which soul is of more importance right now? Is it of greater value to blame the dead for their shortcomings, and to shut out those who are still alive?
 
This is an off topic post, Topper, but I find your reaction curious. He has come to a thread discussion the reasons for the excommunication of Luther. Everyone is welcome to participate in CAF discussions, so long as they follow the forum rules.

So here is an opportunity to actually dialogue with a LIVE person who has anti-catholic sentiments, and you are putting him on the “silent treatment”?!

Which soul is of more importance right now? Is it of greater value to blame the dead for their shortcomings, and to shut out those who are still alive?
Besides the fact that whatever any given poster posts on his own site on his own time is entirely irrelevant here.

Certainly, the merits of Tertium’s opinion on Catholicism is open to discussion…when it’s relevant to the thread.

When one commits the fallacy of ad hominem argumentation against Luther in order to discredit “Lutheranism,” it’s apparent that the fallacy will manifest itself in every other form of discourse as well.
 
I think that this is an interesting perspective from which to dialogue with Catholics on a Catholic apologetics site. Given that this is the way that you honestly really feel about Catholics, assuming it’s all the same to you, I am going to have to pass on responding to you – permanently.
Topper, please take this post with the understanding that you are a brother in Christ. Through baptism, we have all been grafted to the singular Vine. Yet individual branches are still susceptible to disease and rot.

You needn’t agree with each or any of Swan’s opinions. I know, me being Lutheran and he Reformed, there’s a good deal that I can’t share with him. But surely you must recognize the considerable effort he makes to separate historical fact from his personal opinions? This is something that you have repeatedly proven yourself unable to do - you simply regurgitate tired polemics that have been around since Cochleaus first vomited them onto the page. Worse, when you are called out on your intentional misuse of quotes and ignorance of historical context, instead of admitting the wrong you’ve done (or omission, in the best case) you double down and insist on perpetuating the mistruth! I apologize to the other posters for invoking Godwin’s Law here, but your behavior is reminiscent of the sort of indoctrination favored by a certain European tyrant. That individual insisted that “if you tell a lie long enough, loud enough and often enough, the people will believe it.” You’re too intelligent to continue like this.

As for choosing not to respond to those who have engaged you with fact, charity and Truth - for the simple crime of calling out your errors - how long do you expect to have partners with which to dialogue?

Please, please consider changing your attitude toward your fellow Christians. The faith is under enough persecution.
 
I thought it not very nice to post someone post on another site without permission from the poster.
Presumably, your reason for asking first is to provide the quoted person an opportunity to defend (or recant) their already-public words from misapplication and/or misunderstanding. Will you afford the dead the same courtesy?
 
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