Who is Martin Luther and why was he excommunicated?

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Bit of a glaring clue in the last quoted passage. It’s not binding.
The Roman Catholic Church uses the word, ‘declaration’ for this joint Lutheran-Catholic consensus. A reading of JDDJ explains the process and areas for further dialogue. I am not familiar with papal/ pontifical council “declarations” but the few I have read on the Holy See website seem to be binding as an insight/ belief of the Church. Why use such language and refer to ‘doctrine’ if the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification is something less?
  1. The Significance and Scope of the Consensus Reached
40.The understanding of the doctrine of justification set forth in this Declaration shows that a consensus in basic truths of the doctrine of justification exists between Lutherans and Catholics. In light of this consensus the remaining differences of language, theological elaboration, and emphasis in the understanding of justification described in paras. 18 to 39 are acceptable. Therefore the Lutheran and the Catholic explications of justification are in their difference open to one another and do not destroy the consensus regarding the basic truths.
41.Thus the doctrinal condemnations of the 16th century, in so far as they relate to the doctrine of justification, appear in a new light: The teaching of the Lutheran churches presented in this Declaration does not fall under the condemnations from the Council of Trent. The condemnations in the Lutheran Confessions do not apply to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church presented in this Declaration.
42.Nothing is thereby taken away from the seriousness of the condemnations related to the doctrine of justification. Some were not simply pointless. They remain for us “salutary warnings” to which we must attend in our teaching and practice.[21]
43.Our consensus in basic truths of the doctrine of justification must come to influence the life and teachings of our churches. Here it must prove itself. In this respect, there are still questions of varying importance which need further clarification. These include, among other topics, the relationship between the Word of God and church doctrine, as well as ecclesiology, ecclesial authority, church unity, ministry, the sacraments, and the relation between justification and social ethics. We are convinced that the consensus we have reached offers a solid basis for this clarification. The Lutheran churches and the Roman Catholic Church will continue to strive together to deepen this common understanding of justification and to make it bear fruit in the life and teaching of the churches.
44.We give thanks to the Lord for this decisive step forward on the way to overcoming the division of the church. We ask the Holy Spirit to lead us further toward that visible unity which is Christ’s will.
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
 
The Roman Catholic Church uses the word, ‘declaration’ for this joint Lutheran-Catholic consensus. A reading of JDDJ explains the process and areas for further dialogue. I am not familiar with papal/ pontifical council “declarations” but the few I have read on the Holy See website seem to be binding as an insight/ belief of the Church. Why use such language and refer to ‘doctrine’ if the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification is something less?
Until the Church states that something is binding upon all of the faithful, it is not a doctrine. You are getting way to hung up on the word “Declaration”. The key is whether or not it is a binding declaration, a definitive teaching of the Church. As guanophore has pointed out, this is not the case with the JDDJ.
 
Until the Church states that something is binding upon all of the faithful, it is not a doctrine. You are getting way to hung up on the word “Declaration”. The key is whether or not it is a binding declaration, a definitive teaching of the Church. As guanophore has pointed out, this is not the case with the JDDJ.
Thanks

Am I safe to think that the intent and clear direction since Vatican II is closer ties to Lutherans?. No one but Topper can deny that. Many posters are quick to say what a document is not rather than what is being stated/ ramifications. Diminishing words like “declaration” feeds into a negation rather then celebration on doctrinal accords. This is clearly the mindset on CAF.

Enthusiasm versus impulsive scrutiny.
businessballs.com/glass-half-full-empty.htm
 
Thanks

Am I safe to think that the intent and clear direction since Vatican II is closer ties to Lutherans?. No one but Topper can deny that. Many posters are quick to say what a document is not rather than what is being stated/ ramifications. Diminishing words like “declaration” feeds into a negation rather then celebration on doctrinal accords. This is clearly the mindset on CAF.

Enthusiasm versus impulsive scrutiny.
businessballs.com/glass-half-full-empty.htm
It seems you are trying to insist there is some fault
on the part of CAF posters for clearly understanding
what they are bound to profess?

Declaration vs. Doctrine

Declaration of Independence vs U.S. Constitution
Different, yes?

Declaration of what the churches would like is different
from declaration of what is…

When the “declaration” is made that all faithful are
bound under penalty of sin to believe, profess, etc the
JDDJ then it is more than doctrine, is dogma and binding. And not a moment
before.

Your view implies that all Catholics should rush out
of “enthusiasm” to embrace Mary as Mediatrix of ALL
graces or Co-Redeemer. Are you ready to do that because
a caution would be “negation”?

Lol. Be careful what you pray for.
 
Hi Spina,

Thanks for your response.
Hi Topper: In response to your 513 post I would like to say from my research it seems that as early as 1517 Luther was complaining about the scholastic’s theology of grace and works, and their use of Aristotelian philosophy. He called the scholastic nominalists "hog-theologians in 1515 ( Heinerich Boehmer, Luther in the Light of Recent Research N^Y, The Christian Herald, 1916. ) 87. Scholastic “grace and works”; Luther’s break with nominalists concepts of merit and grace was a fundamental step in his developing doctrine of justification. Luther felt that scholasticism involved something of a control over God and the operation of grace. Luther’s opposed their thesis that the human will of its own volition could actually love God above all things, or that by doing one’s best even apart from grace one could earn/merit a certain standing before God.
Excellent work by you Spina!

You are keying in on the facts surrounding Luther’s invention of Salvation By Faith Alone.

The Great Anglican Theologian and Church Historian Alistar McGrath makes a very specific comment regarding Luther’s misunderstanding of the Catholic Teaching on salvation.

“So Luther began formal study of theology at Erfurt, sitting at the feet of some of the greatest German theologians of his age. By this time the via moderna – the ‘modern way’ – had come to dominate philosophy and theology in many German universities, including Erfurt. At the theological level, this was often expressed in an understanding of salvation based upon a gracious divine response to a moral human initiative. T**his principal was generally expressed in the Latin slogan – facientibus quod se est Deus non denagat gratiam, which can be roughly translated as “God will not deny grace to those who do their best.” This theological principal resonated with Luther’s basic psychological instincts. It seemed entirely reasonable to him at that stage that God would not reward people unless they did something to merit that action. It was certainly the academic consensus at Erfurt. It was not, however, the official teaching of the Catholic Church. **

During the late Middle Ages, confusion had set in over what was the private teaching of individual theologians or theological schools and what was the authorized teaching of the church. The fifteenth century is seen by some as marking a magnificent period of religious anarchy in which competing theologies vied for attention, with little official interest in adjudicating between them. The young Luther took the view that the church taught that salvation was dependent on personal austerity, discipline, and denial. If there were alternatives, they do not seem to have been known to Luther.", McGrath, “Dangerous”, pg. 40-41

Here we see additional evidence that Luther did not well understand Catholic Teaching.

McGrath, also admits here that Luther was taught an incorrect “version” of the Catholic Doctrine on Salvation. Given that Salvation was, as we have discussed at length, really very much Luther’s “hot button”, apparently Luther opposed a belief of the Church which in fact was not the belief that it “officially” taught. Luther can hardly be faulted for being taught incorrectly at Erfurt, BUT, it could mean that his interior “revolt” against the Church and Her Teachings were done in error.

McGrath goes on……

“**More radically still, Luther insisted that the believer is “at one and the same time a righteous person and a sinner.” ** While Luther admired Augustine for his emphasis and on unconditional love of God in justification, he suggested that Augustine had become muddled in relation to the location of the gift of righteousness. Augustine located his gift within humanity, as a transforming reality; Luther argued that it is located outside us, being “reckoned” or “imputed” to humanity, not imparted.

Perhaps the chief beneficiary of this insight was Luther himself. Convinced of his sinfulness and frustrated by his own impotence to free himself from the power of his sinful nature, Luther set out a theology of divine acceptance (Luther generally used the Pauline image of “justification”) of sinners that made personal transformation and renewal the consequence, not the precondition, of God’s love. Humanity, in this conception, is like a patient who is under the care of a wise physician and on the way to recovery. The decision to treat does not pre-suppose the desired outcome but rather brings it about.” McGrath, pg. 42-3

Here we see according to McGrath that Luther “found” in Scripture exactly what he needed to find, assurance of his everlasting salvation. However, what he ‘found’, was something that had never been seen there before. It should be very troubling to Protestants that Salvation by Faith Alone was born out of the extremely troubled mind and soul of a single man 1500 years after the time of Christ.

God Bless You Spina, Topper
 
Hi Spina,

Thanks for your response.

Excellent work by you Spina!

You are keying in on the facts surrounding Luther’s invention of Salvation By Faith Alone.

The Great Anglican Theologian and Church Historian Alistar McGrath makes a very specific comment regarding Luther’s misunderstanding of the Catholic Teaching on salvation.

“So Luther began formal study of theology at Erfurt, sitting at the feet of some of the greatest German theologians of his age. By this time the via moderna – the ‘modern way’ – had come to dominate philosophy and theology in many German universities, including Erfurt. At the theological level, this was often expressed in an understanding of salvation based upon a gracious divine response to a moral human initiative. This principal was generally expressed in the Latin slogan – facientibus quod se est Deus non denagat gratiam, which can be roughly translated as “God will not deny grace to those who do their best.” This theological principal resonated with Luther’s basic psychological instincts. It seemed entirely reasonable to him at that stage that God would not reward people unless they did something to merit that action. It was certainly the academic consensus at Erfurt. It was not, however, the official teaching of the Catholic Church.

During the late Middle Ages, confusion had set in over what was the private teaching of individual theologians or theological schools and what was the authorized teaching of the church. The fifteenth century is seen by some as marking a magnificent period of religious anarchy in which competing theologies vied for attention, with little official interest in adjudicating between them. The young Luther took the view that the church taught that salvation was dependent on personal austerity, discipline, and denial. If there were alternatives, they do not seem to have been known to Luther.", McGrath, “Dangerous”, pg. 40-41

Here we see additional evidence that Luther did not well understand Catholic Teaching.

McGrath, also admits here that Luther was taught an incorrect “version” of the Catholic Doctrine on Salvation. Given that Salvation was, as we have discussed at length, really very much Luther’s “hot button”, apparently Luther opposed a belief of the Church which in fact was not the belief that it “officially” taught. Luther can hardly be faulted for being taught incorrectly at Erfurt, BUT, it could mean that his interior “revolt” against the Church and Her Teachings were done in error.

McGrath goes on……

“**More radically still, Luther insisted that the believer is “at one and the same time a righteous person and a sinner.” ** While Luther admired Augustine for his emphasis and on unconditional love of God in justification, he suggested that Augustine had become muddled in relation to the location of the gift of righteousness. Augustine located his gift within humanity, as a transforming reality; Luther argued that it is located outside us, being “reckoned” or “imputed” to humanity, not imparted.

Perhaps the chief beneficiary of this insight was Luther himself. Convinced of his sinfulness and frustrated by his own impotence to free himself from the power of his sinful nature, Luther set out a theology of divine acceptance (Luther generally used the Pauline image of “justification”) of sinners that made personal transformation and renewal the consequence, not the precondition, of God’s love. Humanity, in this conception, is like a patient who is under the care of a wise physician and on the way to recovery. The decision to treat does not pre-suppose the desired outcome but rather brings it about.” McGrath, pg. 42-3

Here we see according to McGrath that Luther “found” in Scripture exactly what he needed to find, assurance of his everlasting salvation. However, what he ‘found’, was something that had never been seen there before. It should be very troubling to Protestants that Salvation by Faith Alone was born out of the extremely troubled mind and soul of a single man 1500 years after the time of Christ.

God Bless You Spina, Topper
Your post is another example of why the non Catholic
posters here are confused by Catholics not reacting
to the JDDJ as if it were on stone tablets. The same
issue occurred in Luther’s day with laity and scholars
alike confusing dogma and doctrine and not understanding
not all teaching authorities in the Church are equal.
Perhaps a discussion of the difference between
binding Dictrine, doctrine vs dogma would help
non Catholics understand that Luther’s time
had the same confusion.
Just a thought.
 
Thanks for the response; it tells me you are actually reading the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification; something very few CAF posters seem to do. You cite various sections to explain how this declaration was formulated but, again, do not provide documentation on the status of a Catholic “declaration”. Where is there evidence that this particular declaration [JDDJ] is different from other papal/ pontifical council declarations?
The difference lies primarily in the source. Pontifical councils are work groups, and do not produce formal teachings to the faithful. Formal teachings (to which we adhere with catholic faith) are produced by the pope, or a council.

The JDDC may at some point reach that level of authority, like the catechism, which was produced by a pontifical council then ratified by the Pope as a sure norm for teaching the faith.
 
Hi Topper: As usual right on the mark! Your post #595 makes sense when one sifts through all the chafe. I was trying to key in one the facts surrounding Luther’s salvation by faith alone doctrine. It appears that Luther greatly misunderstood the CC teaching regarding salvation. The Humanists were regarding scholastic theology as archaic and promoted the via moderna, claiming their philosophy of theology was as being taught in many of the German universities was the more correct way of teaching theology. The scholastic theology that “God will not deny grace to those who do their best” was in line with CC teachings because the merit one received from God for doing one’s best was due to the love one did it with not how well one did it.
Code:
               Luther's scrupulosity was it appears so severe that he could not see anything but what he wanted to see in Scripture instead of what Scripture was actually saying and meaning.. Because of all the confusion in so many of the German universities on how theology was being taught and the many different understandings of theology especially those who were humanists teach8ing a via moderna type of theology and the fact that there were so many uneducated priests and students being taught something that was not official CC teachings seminaries were started to combat it and have a uniform theology in place.

            It seems that Luther forgot that the merit of man was not due to man but due to God who makes man merited by the grace man chooses to receive from God who gives it as a free gift. IOWs man does not gain merit of his own self but given merit by God who gives it freely as a gift. of oneself man has no importance but it is God who make man important. All man has to do is choose to do one's best out of love, so it is not how well one does it but how much love one does it with.

           I think Fr. Staupitz tried to teach Luther and show him the way but Luther being stubborn refused to be consoled that God would by Luther's own actions trying his best was never going to be good enough and never receive any merit for trying his best and would be forever condemned. This is why j8ustification by faith alone was so important to Luther, without it Luther felt that it was the only way in which he would be saved since nothing else worked   a least in his mind and he needed the assurance that he was saved not the hope that he was saved but the knowing he was saved. At least that is beginning to be the way in which I see it from reading his doctrines and from other scholars on Luther and justification by faith alone.
 
Hi guano,

Thanks for your response.
Yes, sorry it is one of my worst faults, not reading enough before posting .:o
No problem guano. How about a suggestion though? How about if the next time you don’t just automatically presume that I am guilty of the charge? Does that make sense?

As you know, I am regularly insulted, slandered, and falsely accused here on these threads. That is the price I pay for revealing the facts and Protestants opinions that some here do not want to see posted.

God Bless You guano, Topper
 
Hi Topper: As usual right on the mark! Your post #595 makes sense when one sifts through all the chafe. I was trying to key in one the facts surrounding Luther’s salvation by faith alone doctrine. It appears that Luther greatly misunderstood the CC teaching regarding salvation. The Humanists were regarding scholastic theology as archaic and promoted the via moderna, claiming their philosophy of theology was as being taught in many of the German universities was the more correct way of teaching theology. The scholastic theology that “God will not deny grace to those who do their best” was in line with CC teachings because the merit one received from God for doing one’s best was due to the love one did it with not how well one did it.
Code:
               Luther's scrupulosity was it appears so severe that he could not see anything but what he wanted to see in Scripture instead of what Scripture was actually saying and meaning.. Because of all the confusion in so many of the German universities on how theology was being taught and the many different understandings of theology especially those who were humanists teach8ing a via moderna type of theology and the fact that there were so many uneducated priests and students being taught something that was not official CC teachings seminaries were started to combat it and have a uniform theology in place.

            It seems that Luther forgot that the merit of man was not due to man but due to God who makes man merited by the grace man chooses to receive from God who gives it as a free gift. IOWs man does not gain merit of his own self but given merit by God who gives it freely as a gift. of oneself man has no importance but it is God who make man important. All man has to do is choose to do one's best out of love, so it is not how well one does it but how much love one does it with.

           I think Fr. Staupitz tried to teach Luther and show him the way but Luther being stubborn refused to be consoled that God would by Luther's own actions trying his best was never going to be good enough and never receive any merit for trying his best and would be forever condemned. This is why j8ustification by faith alone was so important to Luther, without it Luther felt that it was the only way in which he would be saved since nothing else worked   a least in his mind and he needed the assurance that he was saved not the hope that he was saved but the knowing he was saved. At least that is beginning to be the way in which I see it from reading his doctrines and from other scholars on Luther and justification by faith alone.
The most interesting information that I learned on the threads about Luther is that there were theologians who were outright pelagians during his time. I don’t wonder that he was discouraged. But I do wonder why he was not consoled when he was told that the Church does not teach that we can earn our salvation and pelagianism is a heresy.

Annie
 
Hi guano,

Thanks for your response.

No problem guano. How about a suggestion though? How about if the next time you don’t just automatically presume that I am guilty of the charge? Does that make sense?
I confess that I was influenced by your general antipathy toward our separated brethren. I will most likely continue to presume because your attitude has been consistent, but I can avoid posting before reading!
 
Hi guano,
I confess that I was influenced by your general antipathy toward our separated brethren. I will most likely continue to presume because your attitude has been consistent, but I can avoid posting before reading!
Making sure that you understand the facts before posting would be appreciated of course. I would also suggest that you do seem to misunderstand my position.

I have no antipathy towards our separated brethren. In fact I believe that they deserve to know the whole truth.

It is true that I have a pretty negative opinion regarding Martin Luther but it is one that is entirely based on the facts about the man.
 
The most interesting information that I learned on the threads about Luther is that there were theologians who were outright pelagians during his time. I don’t wonder that he was discouraged. But I do wonder why he was not consoled when he was told that the Church does not teach that we can earn our salvation and pelagianism is a heresy.

Annie
Hi Annie: I think that real reason is due very much to Luther’s scrupulosity and the terror he felt that he would not be saved no matter what he did. His terror stemmed from his thinking that he might have forgotten some sin during confession thereby not receiving the grace of true forgiveness. One just has to understand how terror felt one can get when they have scrupulosity to the extent that Luther must have had. To Luther it seemed that no matter what he did to over come some sin what penance he did how much he prayed etc. it was never going to be good enough that God would ever forgive him. This I am thinking is the basis for his theology of justified by faith alone as the only way he thought he could be saved from the terrors that consumed him.
 
.Some of these dialogue reports have been officially received by the churches. An important example of such reception is the binding response of the United Evangelical-Lutheran Church of Germany to the “Condemnations” study, made in 1994 at the highest possible level of ecclesiastical recognition together with the other churches of the Evangelical Church in Germany.[8]

This is saying that the “binding” was done by the Evangelical Church in Germany (not Catholics). For Catholics, the JDDC just clarifies what we have always believed about Justification (though it was not as clear in Germany at the time of the Reformation) so it does not represent any change on the Catholic side. The ELC of Germany decided to withdraw the condemnations of the Pope and the CC regarding this critical point of theological agreement.
I think this is very exciting. Granted it is only 1/1,000th of what has to happen in order for us to achieve a REAL unity, but hey – this is actually something concrete. Somebody actually changed an official teaching of their communion as a result of the dialogue! This gives me hope.

Does anybody know if these Lutherans are considered to be conservative and Confessional?
 
It states itself:

It reference other documents./ work being done on healing the wounds to unity.

.Special attention should be drawn to the following reports: “The Gospel and the Church” (1972)[4] and “Church and Justification” (1994)[5] by the Lutheran-Roman Catholic Joint Commission, “Justification by Faith” (1983)[6] of the Lutheran-Roman Catholic dialogue in the USA and “The Condemnations of the Reformation Era - Do They Still Divide?” (1986)[7] by the Ecumenical Working Group of Protestant and Catholic theologians in Germany.

A pontifical council is appointed by the Pope to complete certain work (essentially a high level committee). But a working group of Protestant and Catholic theologians engaging in dialogue and documents to support unity does not have teaching authority in the Church.

.Some of these dialogue reports have been officially received by the churches. An important example of such reception is the binding response of the United Evangelical-Lutheran Church of Germany to the “Condemnations” study, made in 1994 at the highest possible level of ecclesiastical recognition together with the other churches of the Evangelical Church in Germany.[8]

This is saying that the “binding” was done by the Evangelical Church in Germany (not Catholics). For Catholics, the JDDC just clarifies what we have always believed about Justification (though it was not as clear in Germany at the time of the Reformation) so it does not represent any change on the Catholic side. The ELC of Germany decided to withdraw the condemnations of the Pope and the CC regarding this critical point of theological agreement.

4.In their discussion of the doctrine of justification, all the dialogue reports as well as the responses show a high degree of agreement in their approaches and conclusions. The time has therefore come to take stock and to summarize the results of the dialogues on justification so that our churches may be informed about the overall results of this dialogue with the necessary accuracy and brevity, and thereby be enabled to make binding decisions.

The discussion /dialogue is being summarized in the JDDC so that binding decisions can be made. In itself, it is not part of any official promulgation or papal declaration.

All that being said, I think it is very important for Catholics to know about this work and support what our leaders are doing to heal the wounds of unity. I did not know about the JDDC until I came here to CAF, and I am sure that the average Catholic in the pew has never heard of it.
Hi guan,
Near the end of the JDDJ, this:
41.Thus the doctrinal condemnations of the 16th century, in so far as they relate to the doctrine of justification, appear in a new light: The teaching of the Lutheran churches presented in this Declaration does not fall under the condemnations from the Council of Trent. The condemnations in the Lutheran Confessions do not apply to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church presented in this Declaration.
42.Nothing is thereby taken away from the seriousness of the condemnations related to the doctrine of justification. Some were not simply pointless. They remain for us “salutary warnings” to which we must attend in our teaching and practice.[21]
Does the Catholic Church actually teach this now, or is this somehow less than “teaching”?

Jon
 
Hi guan,
Near the end of the JDDJ, this:

Does the Catholic Church actually teach this now, or is this somehow less than “teaching”?

Jon
This is the difficulty you see. The Church doesn’t “teach” us
anything about Lutherans or what the Church believes
about Lutherans. It is only discussed on a “need to know”
basis as in mixed marriages or conversions.
Other than those individual to individual issues, without
the Internet or forums like this most Catholics would
never hear this stuff.
Reality is on a day to day basis the laity never hear
references to any other religions. At all.
I don’t believe in 58 years I have ever heard a priest
even say the word Lutheran. Why would they?
So a “teaching?” it is a non binding teaching if any
lay person chose to be taught I suppose.
 
Hi guano,

Making sure that you understand the facts before posting would be appreciated of course. I would also suggest that you do seem to misunderstand my position.

I have no antipathy towards our separated brethren. In fact I believe that they deserve to know the whole truth.

It is true that I have a pretty negative opinion regarding Martin Luther but it is one that is entirely based on the facts about the man.
It would seem if anyone rejects the overly sentimental
portraits of Luther so popular in the 1800’s they are accused
of antipathy.
Even inside the Church inaccurate portrayals exist of our
own saints who were sentimentalized in the 1800’s and early
1900s. The original “Story of a Soul” is an excellent
example. Yet no one would accuse those who wanted and
eventually got a more accurate portrayal of the Little Flower
of being hostile to the saint. Lol.
 
The “Catholic” response * of how the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification is somehow not a declaration leaves one confused and may in-fact be an example of attitude rather than accuracy. Having read a Lutheran commentary on the official dialogue one realizes that this is not some “pie-in-the-sky” idealism but rather significant steps toward unity. These are the people who actually participated in the formation of the Lutheran-Catholic Commission on Unity and suggest inter-communion/ eucharistic hospitality between the two Western Communions. Clearly the scope and intent of JDDJ is closer relationships between the Lutherans and Catholics not division.
There is a realization that Evangelical-Lutherans will “presumably not be in a position to adopt the same relationship to the see of Rome that is currently held by Roman
Catholics”. But they suggest that a “distinct canonical status may be worked out by which Evangelical-Lutherans could be in official communion with the church of Rome. Such a restoration of communion, we believe, would be of great benefit to Roman Catholics, and to Evangelical-Lutherans, enabling them both to share in a broader Christian heritage.”79
Building on these and other insights, the Roman Catholic participants offer additional affirmations as part of their concluding statement in bold-face type. They acknowledge in the “spirit of the Second Vatican Council that the Evangelical-Lutheran communities
with which we have been in dialogue are truly Christian churches, possessing the elements of holiness and truth that mark them as organs of grace and salvation”
Furthermore, they report having found “serious defects in the arguments customarily used against the validity of the Eucharistic ministry of the Evangelical-Lutheran churches”,
and add that they “see no persuasive reason to deny the possibility of the Roman Catholic Church recognizing the validity of this ministry”. The Roman Catholic dialogue group then appeals to the authorities of their church to “recognize the validity of the Evangelical-Lutheran ministry and, correspondingly, the presence of the body and blood of Jesus Christ in the Eucharistic celebrations of the Evangelical-Lutheran churches”.49
koed.hu/vocation/johngeorge.pdf
 
The “Catholic” response * of how the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification is somehow not a declaration leaves one confused and may in-fact be an example of attitude rather than accuracy. Having read a Lutheran commentary on the official dialogue one realizes that this is not some “pie-in-the-sky” idealism but rather significant steps toward unity. These are the people who actually participated in the formation of the Lutheran-Catholic Commission on Unity and suggest inter-communion/ eucharistic hospitality between the two Western Communions. Clearly the scope and intent of JDDJ is closer relationships between the Lutherans and Catholics not division.*

No CAF posters denied the declaration as a declaration.
It is denied however as a DOGMA.

You do understand that after the Declaration of Independence
did NOT make the United States a country but a possibility?
You really don’t see a difference between a simple
declaration and an indisputable factual truth?

Well I declare!!!
 
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