Who is Mary to the Father?

[jochoa]

No offense, and with all due respect, but…there’s a whole lot of ‘I believe’ and ‘I view’, and ‘…my understanding’ and basically, theological engineering, that essentially belies Church authority.

Again, not trying to be overly critical here, or to suppress independent thinking, but when the Church has spoken on a matter, it’s kinda’ the way it is. In fact, it’s called ‘dogma’…and respecting dogma is integral to Catholicism.

No offense perceived. Thank you for the kind reply. I appreciate being directed to correct my misalignment with Catholic Dogma.

After consideration of the Litany of Loreto and further reflection of:

Mary is the Mother of “God the Son”… But who is she in relation to God the Father?

Mary is the “Mother of our Creator.” Since I recognize our Creator as God, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, then Mary is the Mother of God, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

To offer Catholic Teaching to support my understanding of the Mother of the Son as the Bride of the Father, please consider the Litany of Loreto, where Mary is known as the “Queen of peace.” Since Catholicism knows the Son is the “Prince of peace,” then the Father must be the “King of peace.” Since I know of no Biblical kingdom or any other kingdom throughout all history in which the King of the Kingdom is not married to the Queen of the same Kingdom, then Biblical History supports that the Queen of peace is the bride of the King of peace.

You seem to have infused Mary, into the Trinity:

…and I thought you were going to quote the Hail Mary–I only recognize the last 1/2 clause.

Perhaps I’ve completely misunderstood your post, but…it seems to be a bit disjointed, and not very… ‘Catholic’.

I enjoy finding understandings which validate Catholic Teachings literally. One of the teachings I have really enjoyed validating is CCC#460: “…we might become God.” This particular discussion led to reflection on this particular teaching, and therefore, I shared my understandings.

Thanks for the extended discussion, and I look forward to more!

 

[Goya]

jochoa;11327117

No offense perceived. Thank you for the kind reply. I appreciate being directed to correct my misalignment with Catholic Dogma.After consideration of the Litany of Loreto and further reflection of:
Mary is the “Mother of our Creator.” Since I recognize our Creator as God, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, then Mary is the Mother of God, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

You are conflating the persons, or ‘hypostases’ of the Trinity, with the Godhead.

One God…but still, three distinct persons. Paraphrasing St. Augustine (in turn, paraphrasing the Council of Nicea):

God is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit–however:

The Father is not the Son;
The Son is not the H/S;
The H/S is not the Father.

Three persons; one God.

To offer Catholic Teaching to support my understanding of the Mother of the Son as the Bride of the Father, please consider the Litany of Loreto, where Mary is known as the “Queen of peace.” Since Catholicism knows the Son is the “Prince of peace,” then the Father must be the “King of peace.” Since I know of no Biblical kingdom or any other kingdom throughout all history in which the King of the Kingdom is not married to the Queen of the same Kingdom, then Biblical History supports that the Queen of peace is the bride of the King of peace.

As for the titular “Queen of Peace”, and “Queen of Heaven”–you are extrapolating from mere ‘titulars’ born of, and bestowed out of, reverence and veneration–a conclusion that does not necessarily follow. What’s more, you are imputing human concepts, to God.

I enjoy finding understandings which validate Catholic Teachings literally. One of the teachings I have really enjoyed validating is CCC#460: “…we might become God.” This particular discussion led to reflection on this particular teaching, and therefore, I shared my understandings.

The bottom line–Mary as ‘Spouse of the God the Father’–has never been revealed as such, and to my knowledge, never recognized as such, by the Church.

Hence, imo, it is out of line to take that next step. I wouldn’t go so far as to suggest that it is heresy, but it isn’t backed up by Church teaching.

Of course, this is just my understanding–I don’t pretend to any authority myself–but your authority hasn’t really countered my understanding. (e.g.–had you quoted a papal decree proclaiming Mary as spouse of the Father, I would probably concede that your assertion was well founded).

Thanks for the extended discussion, and I look forward to more!

Likewise.

 

[jochoa]

You are conflating the persons, or ‘hypostases’ of the Trinity, with the Godhead.

I do not perceive I am conflating the persons of the Trinity with the Godhead any more than Catholicism because I am declaring the same thing as the “Hail Mary:” “Holy Mary, Mother of God.” It does not declare “Holy Mary, Mother of the Son.”

…had you quoted a papal decree proclaiming Mary as spouse of the Father, I would probably concede that your assertion was well founded).

From your perspective, would the title, “Queen of Heaven,” from the ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII
ON PROCLAIMING THE QUEENSHIP OF MARY be enough to establish the connection mentioned regarding the “Queen of peace” to the “Spouse of the King”?

And for those who consider “the spouse of the Holy Spirit” as only metaphorical, according to ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII
ON THE HOLY SPIRIT, “14. …of the Blessed Virgin. You know well the intimate and wonderful relations existing between her and the Holy Ghost, so that she is justly called His Spouse. (Ps. ciii., 30)”

Thanks for further consideration and recommendation! I really appreciated researching “papal decrees.” I feel like I have a better understanding of them this time around! They also helped shed light on answers my Cursillo Friendship Group was seeking! I look forward to more discussion!

 

[Goya]

I do not perceive I am conflating the persons of the Trinity with the Godhead any more than Catholicism because I am declaring the same thing as the “Hail Mary:” “Holy Mary, Mother of God.” It does not declare “Holy Mary, Mother of the Son.”

From your perspective, would the title, “Queen of Heaven,” from the ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII
ON PROCLAIMING THE QUEENSHIP OF MARY be enough to establish the connection mentioned regarding the “Queen of peace” to the “Spouse of the King”?

And for those who consider “the spouse of the Holy Spirit” as only metaphorical, according to ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII
ON THE HOLY SPIRIT, “14. …of the Blessed Virgin. You know well the intimate and wonderful relations existing between her and the Holy Ghost, so that she is justly called His Spouse. (Ps. ciii., 30)”

Thanks for further consideration and recommendation! I really appreciated researching “papal decrees.” I feel like I have a better understanding of them this time around! They also helped shed light on answers my Cursillo Friendship Group was seeking! I look forward to more discussion!

FWIW: ‘Theotokos’–which is what the Council of Ephesus declared Mary, actually, technically, means “God bearer”, not ‘Mother of God’–meaning she actually bore God in the person of Christ, within her (or the Word of God, per John 1:1, as the Ark of the Covenant bore the Word of God fixed on the Tablets).

Hence “Mother of God” is more of a paraphrase born of reverence, than a title whose significance was intended to be taken literally. Bear in mind that the issue confronting Ephesus wasn’t Mary’s status–but Christ’s divinity. Hence to suggest that Mary was only the ‘mother of Jesus’, and not ‘Theotokos’–was to deny Christ’s divinity.

That is the revealed basis for “Mother of God”.

According to the Gospel Nativity narratives, Mary was also ‘overshadowed’ by the Holy Spirit–this provides the revealed basis for “Spouse of the Holy Spirit”.

I’m simply not aware of any such basis for “Spouse of God the Father”.

Note: your points are well taken, and they make sense–I’m simply pointing out that I’m not aware of any authoritative basis for it.

 

[Goya]

From Pope Paul VI’s Apostolic Exhortaion, Marialis Cultus (“Cult of Mary”):

Trinitarian, Christological and Ecclesial Aspects of Devotion to the Blessed Virgin

1. In the first place it is supremely fitting that exercises of piety directed towards the Virgin Mary should clearly express the Trinitarian and Christological note that is intrinsic and essential to them. Christian worship in fact is of itself worship offered to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit, or, as the liturgy puts it, to the Father through Christ in the Spirit. From this point of view worship is rightly extended, though in a substantially different way, first and foremost and in a special manner, to the Mother of the Lord and then to the saints, in whom the Church proclaims the Paschal Mystery, for they have suffered with Christ and have been glorified with Him.(68) In the Virgin Mary everything is relative to Christ and dependent upon Him. It was with a view to Christ that God the Father from all eternity chose her to be the all-holy Mother and adorned her with gifts of the Spirit granted to no one else. Certainly genuine Christian piety has never failed to highlight the indissoluble link and essential relationship of the Virgin to the divine Savior.(69) Yet it seems to us particularly in conformity with the spiritual orientation of our time. which is dominated and absorbed by the “question of Christ,”(70) that in the expressions of devotion to the Virgin the Christological aspect should have particular prominence. It likewise seems to us fitting that these expressions of devotion should reflect God’s plan, which laid down “with one single decree the origin of Mary and the Incarnation of the divine Wisdom.”(71) This will without doubt contribute to making piety towards the Mother of Jesus more solid, and to making it an effective instrument for attaining to full “knowledge of the Son of God, until we become the perfect man, fully mature with the fullness of Christ himself” (Eph. 4:13). It will also contribute to increasing the worship due to Christ Himself, since, according to the perennial mind of the Church authoritatively repeated in our own day,(72) “what is given to the handmaid is referred to the Lord; thus what is given to the Mother redounds to the Son; …and thus what is given as humble tribute to the Queen becomes honor rendered to the King.”(73)

1. It seems to us useful to add to this mention of the Christological orientation of devotion to the Blessed Virgin a reminder of the fittingness of giving prominence in this devotion to one of the essential facts of the Faith: the Person and work of the Holy Spirit. Theological reflection and the liturgy have in fact noted how the sanctifying intervention of the Spirit in the Virgin of Nazareth was a culminating moment of the Spirit’s action in the history of salvation. Thus, for example, some Fathers and writers of the Church attributed to the work of the Spirit the original holiness of Mary, who was as it were “fashioned by the Holy Spirit into a kind of new substance and new creature.”(74) Reflecting on the Gospel texts-“The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Most High will cover you with his shadow” (Lk. 1:35) and “[Mary] was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit… She has conceived what is in her by the Holy Spirit” (Mt. 1:18, 20)-they saw in*** the Spirit’s intervention an action that consecrated and made fruitful Mary’s virginity(75) and transformed her into the “Abode of the King***” or “Bridal Chamber of the Word,”(76) the “Temple” or “Tabernacle of the Lord,”(77) the “Ark of the Covenant” or “the Ark of Holiness,”(78) titles rich in biblical echoes. Examining more deeply still the mystery of the Incarnation, they saw in the mysterious relationship between the Spirit and Mary an aspect redolent of marriage, poetically portrayed by Prudentius: “The unwed Virgin espoused the Spirit,”(79) and they called her the “Temple of the Holy Spirit,”(80) an expression that emphasizes the sacred character of the Virgin, now the permanent dwelling of the Spirit of God. Delving deeply into the doctrine of the Paraclete, they saw that from Him as from a spring there flowed forth the fullness of grace (cf. Lk. 1:28) and the abundance of gifts that adorned her. Thus they attributed to the Spirit the faith, hope and charity that animated the Virgin’s heart, the strength that sustained her acceptance of the will of God, and the vigor that upheld her in her suffering at the foot of the cross.(81) In Mary’s prophetic canticle (cf. Lk. 1:46-55) they saw a special working of the Spirit who had spoken through the mouths of the prophets.(82) Considering, finally, the presence of the Mother of Jesus in the Upper Room, where the Spirit came down upon the infant Church (cf Acts 1:12-14; 2:1-4), they enriched with new developments the ancient theme of Mary and the Church.(83) Above all they had recourse to the Virgin’s intercession in order to obtain from the Spirit the capacity for engendering Christ in their own soul, as is attested to by Saint Ildephonsus in a prayer of supplication, amazing in its doctrine and prayerful power: “I beg you, holy Virgin, that I may have Jesus from the Holy Spirit, by whom you brought Jesus forth. May my soul receive Jesus through the Holy Spirit by whom your flesh conceived Jesus… May I love Jesus in the Holy Spirit in whom you adore Jesus as Lord and gaze upon Him as your Son.”(84)

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_p-vi_exh_19740202_marialis-cultus_en.html

 

[Goya]

^^^btw, the above Apostolic letter is included in an excellent book published by the USCCB, along with other such documents–called Mary In the Church:

Mary in the Church: A Selection of Teaching Documents

“It is to be hoped that this compendium of important Catholic documents on the Mother of God will enrich the faith and love of all who seek to imitate her on their way to Christ.” From the Foreword by Bishop Wilton D. Gregory, Bishop of Belleville, Illinois

Mary in the Church: A Selection of Teaching Documents is an unique source of recent Church teaching on the Blessed Virgin Many. It is the perfect resource for students, theologians, ecumenists, parishioners, and all those desiring a deeper understanding of Mary’s role in Christianity–especially in regard to ongoing ecumenical dialogue–and in humanity.

Mary in the Church includes the bishops of the United States’ pastoral letter, Behold Your Mother: Woman of Faith, Pope Paul VI’s apostolic exhortation Marialis Cultus: For the Right Ordering and Development of Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, Pope John Paul II’s encyclical Redemptoris Mater (The Mother of the Redeemer), and his recent apostolic letter Rosarium Virginis Mariae (On the Most Holy Rosary).
No. 5-601, 184 pp., $14.95
Resource Member Price $8.97

old.usccb.org/publishing/liturgy/mary.shtml

It is an excellent recourse, and at less than 200 pages, an easy but enlightening read.