Who Is Responsible to See To It that Priests Teach With the Church?

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While the issues that have come out in Boston are particularly egregious, and there seems to be little question that Law knew what was going on (the smell of blackmail still hangs in the air), I find that most people have little perspective on the sexual abuse issue. Much, if not most of the abuse took a long time coming to the surface. Reactions came at a time when sexual abuse simply wasn’t discussed; and certainly not in public. We are Monday morning quarterbacking an issue that in many cases occurred 30, 40 or 50 years ago. Have the bishops failed us? Undoubtedly. Did they try their best, given the times, the knowledge, the advice from professionals, to make the right decision? Many did. We know for sure that it wasn’t the right one. But some of the moral outrage is over the top.

Bishops have one of the most thankless jobs there is. I suspect many, if not most would respond with at least a nod of acceptance to the revision “You can please very few people most of the time”. We expect bishops be perfect, and for each person there seems to be a different definition of perfect. We expect them to be omnicient. We expect them to agree sith us in terms of our version of what good, or correct, or perfect rubrics amounts to; we demand that they agree with us in every theological position we hold, because “that’s what the Church teaches”, in spite of the fact that often our opinion is limited, and biased, and sometimes just plain ill-informed.

For example, Greg, who started this thread, bemoans that there are no sermons on contraception. But the priest is not to give a sermon, he is to give a homily, which is to break open the Scripture readings of the day. Perhaps one or more of the Scripture readings could be expanded upon by the topic of contraception; and perhaps that same reading coud be expounded upon by two or three other topics and who knows how many approaches? To react that the priest is failing to teach what the Church teaches seems more than just a little harsh. And how many prenuptual classes has he taught to how many people who just plain don’t want to hear about it? And perhaps he has put it in his homily, and been told that people have heard about that enough (is there anyone out there who hasn’t heard what the Church teaches about contraception?). Maybe he has fought the good fight, and lost too many times, and is trying to find something, anything, he can do to save souls, to draw them closer to Christ. Maybe he doesn’t do a very good job of it. Has Greg supported him in any way, or just sat there condemning him with faint praise?

And given that Greg is a convert, is there an issue here of wanting his pastor to mimic a more Protestant approach? Preaching and singing are so important in the Protestant realm, because they don’t have the Sacraments.

Oh, enough. There are more flies drawn to honey than to vinegar. I suspect that most bishops could fill several library shelves with letter of complaints.

So when, as Catholic Christians, are we going to stop waiting for the priests and bishops to do the right thing, and start evangelizing? Are we going to quit bemoaning the sinfulness of our priests and bishops, and start addressing our own sinfulenss?
 
Hello,

I’m not a convert. I was baptized Catholic as an infant.

I am not merely talking about priests who fail to teach about openness to life and the sin of artificial contraception. I am talking about priests who dissent regarding contraception and other teachings (e.g. women priests, sex outside marriage, and others).

I was excited about finding God when I returned to seeking God as a young adult. I was awe-inspired by the Church’s beautiful teachings on marriage and sexuality and these teachings strengthened my joy and conviction that I have found God. I was so shocked upon returning to Church that there were priests who dissent. I literally was shocked and it is very very wrong. No priest should ever fail to support our holy teachings 100%. Then I was more shocked to discover that these priests continue to operate with impunity.The sex scandal on top of all this has really hurt me. I seek purity and innocence and yet I find my own clergy has at times failed to uphold the teachings I believe in.

I was shocked when I heard the priest at mass say that the Church will surely change the teaching on women priests.

I told a priest that I watch EWTN and he said: “That’s right wing stuff.”.

Consider Fr. McBrien also.

I know there are many wonderful priests and I am most grateful for them.

I am shocked to discover that the clergy operates this way, with dissent by many. Apparently my geographic area is one of the worst. Then the sex scandal. I thought I was a sinner returning to a pure and holy clergy only to find that there were issues. Now I understand why so many may not take Catholicism seriously, because some priests don’t. It’s shocking to me.

I never imagined that Catholic priests would ever dissent. I didn’t even know there was a word for it (dissent).

It causes me to think that maybe I misunderstood the clergy. I thought the clergy accepted the Catechism 100% with no disagreements. Now I am finding that this has made it painful for me to be Catholic. By God’s grace I will never leave the Church because Jesus came to save us.

It’s very painful to have your innocent faith hurt.
 
I find it interesting at how this generation is so hung up with all the scandals and such in the Church. We must realize that this is not the first time that this has happened and it will not be the last time, Jesus told us so. The best thing to do in times of turmoil is to pray and to follow the examples of the saints who also went through trials such as these. I to come from a very liberal parish and I must admit that I can put on the pity feed bag and eat it up but then I realized that this is just what the old devil wants isn’t it?:bigyikes: He wants us to be so absorb in fault finding that we cannot possibly be of any use to any one, even Christ. I am not advocating that we let the abuses go on but I am saying that we must be careful since we may lose our focus on Him and instead put it on humans.

The one thing I find that helps me through this all is to find the will of God in all this. If I can’t change people like the priests and bishops, I can at least change myself and give myself to the community that is suffering. Through God’s prompting and with my spiritual director’s approval I have started a study group on the different encyclicals and documents from the Church. I find that this does a number of things. It builds community, understanding and it keeps us in touch with the Universal Church. So don’t give up, just re-focus. I know it’s hard but you are not alone.
 
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moedom:
I am saying that we must be careful since we may lose our focus on Him and instead put it on humans.
That’s a good point and that’s also part of the problem that I am referring to.
 
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Greg_McPherran:
I am shocked to discover that the clergy operates this way, with dissent by many. Apparently my geographic area is one of the worst. Then the sex scandal. I thought I was a sinner returning to a pure and holy clergy only to find that there were issues. Now I understand why so many may not take Catholicism seriously, because some priests don’t. It’s shocking to me.

I never imagined that Catholic priests would ever dissent. I didn’t even know there was a word for it (dissent).
It is the dissent of the clergy that opens the door to the dissent of the laity. a 100% loyal clergy would keep the flock to the straight and narrow. Unfortunately the clergy is made up of sinners, in this case, adversely affected by the culture around them.
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Greg_McPherran:
It causes me to think that maybe I misunderstood the clergy. I thought the clergy accepted the Catechism 100% with no disagreements. Now I am finding that this has made it painful for me to be Catholic. By God’s grace I will never leave the Church because Jesus came to save us.

It’s very painful to have your innocent faith hurt.
We are all hurt by dissident and lukewarm priests and bishops. It is painful to us, the loyal laity as well as the loyal priests and bishops. Ask Bishop Chaput or the Holy Father and you will see the hurt in their comments. We must pray. We must encourage good priests and bishops and support them in everyway. We must stand up against the dissidence in a lawful (church law) courteous manner.
 
Hello,

This is my first post, but I have been a lurker for many months. I am writing now because this problem is really a basic fundamental problem with our church. However, the authenticity of our faith assures us that we will survive this crisis just like we have throughout history. I am truly saddened at the state of affairs in your home parishes, but take heart that not every church community is like that. Remember that some of Paul’s letters were written to the first churches that were experiencing problems like these! Furthermore (for the Oregon person), some of the problems Paul wrote about dealt directly with sexual sins, and the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 among other things addressed a sexual sin (relations within a forbidden degree of consanguinity). Jesus showed us how to forgive, but he also told people to stop sinning, meaning for us it’s important to speak the truth about what is right and wrong in addition to forgiving those involved. I agree with the advice that you should join up with like-minded people, living either here or in Heaven, and pray that the Holy Spirit will guide and strengthen our human leadership and given them the courage to speak the truth.

Scott
 
Don’t priests have to commit to faithfulness to the Church in order to even become a priest?
 
I won’t harp on this anymore. I had noticed additional responses so I wanted to clarify otherwise I wasn’t even posting in this section anymore. Most priests are wonderful. It’s just that here in Sharon, MA I was thinking “Ouch!!!”.

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. It is wonderful to see such faithfulness at Catholic Answers. Catholic Answers is exactly what the Church needs right now.

I think we can have power to heal and other powers like the apostles if we just open up to God’s power in faith. We also should encourage those Catholics who have charisms and special powers from God. It is only a matter of faith that we can have powers from God. Not to be quacky, but I think we are to establish the kingdom of heaven on earth and I think there are no limits to what God can do. Satan may understand this better than us, and he wants us not to have faith because our faith in God and our liberation from the chains that bind us, are what Satan opposes.
 
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Greg_McPherran:
Hello Father,

Thank you. We have Archbishop O’Malley. I think he is helping. What I am concerned about is that the Bishops need to set up systems so that priests can’t get away with dissent. These systems need to be in place.

For you and other priests, I am most grateful. I am mainly upset because I don’t think part of a Catholics job should be to have to shop around for a Church where they stand firmly with all the teachings of the Catechism. This is what I’ve had to do.
Maybe we are called to take a stand in our parishes when there is a serious deviation from the Magisterium. I, too, have thought to “travel” when doctrinal hanky-panky has been played in my parish. But wouldn’t that make ME part of the problem?
 
Hello, thank you for your post.

Yes, I figured I’d just stay and be a force for good, but then when I heard the priest say during the homily at holy mass that women will “surely” be priests and no one seemed to bat an eye, it became difficult. This is on top of many other things I had heard there. It’s the most liberal parish I have ever seen in my entire life. It seems I would often resolve to stay no matter what but then I would hear something in a sermon against Church teaching and I couldn’t stand it. I went back and forth a couple of times, each time remembering why I had left before.

I did send letters. Then the sex scandal broke out. Then the dissenting priests attack the Church and promote the removal of the Bishop for failing to protect children. The VOTF group that says the laity needs to correct the Church. However, VOTF is a dissenting group themselves. It’s seems like they are using reverse psychology, this kind of intelligent cleverness is not innocent.

Thank You
 
Greg: sorry, I misread your missives; I see too many and they blend…

I guess what you have is a great deal of naivety. Naive is defined as :1)having genuine simplicity of nature; 2) lacking social or economic sophisitication. Just so we understand I am not taking a pot shot at you, I still suffer from the same issue now and then.

However, I got over that about the Chruch in grade school, when I served for a priest who was an alcoholic. I figured out at the age of about 12 that they were human like everyone else. I was also exposed to a number of other priests (they were often dinner guests at my parents’ house; so I wasn’t jaded.

You don’t explain your absence from the Church; but even if you weren’t attending, how could you have missed what was going on? It isn’t exactly hidden news!

Welcome back. Even if they have made a vow to the Chruch, you need to understand the context in which they made it; often their training was very liberal. When training has no balance, and they are in the midst of peers with the same training and understanding, it is going to take quite a bit - humility and openness to the Holy Spirit - to change direction.

You need to get to know yourself better; you need to be aware of your inbuilt naivety, and learn how to balance what the real world is like against your innate preconceptions. You need to be true to the faith. But part of dealing with the world (i.e. the Church as it exists in reality, not in doctrine) is learning your own weaknesses and sinfulness. It has a tendency to take the sharp edge off, give you more humilty, a more forgiving and understanding heart, and the ability to speak the truth in charity instead of shock and anger.

It would be easy to rant and rage about the alcoholic pastor I had, or the priest I occasionally rode to high school with, who later was convicted of sexual abuse of minors (not me). But I have learned enough about the world, and myself, to be a little less scandalized, and a little more humble.

Bottom line: we are all sinners; and it is much easier to look at, and condemn someone else’s sin than our own.
 
Hello,
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otm:
You don’t explain your absence from the Church; but even if you weren’t attending, how could you have missed what was going on? It isn’t exactly hidden news!
I have been back to the Church since I was about 25, well over 15 years ago.
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otm:
It has a tendency to take the sharp edge off, give you more humilty, a more forgiving and understanding heart, and the ability to speak the truth in charity instead of shock and anger.

It would be easy to rant and rage about the alcoholic pastor I had, or the priest I occasionally rode to high school with, who later was convicted of sexual abuse of minors (not me). But I have learned enough about the world, and myself, to be a little less scandalized, and a little more humble.

Bottom line: we are all sinners; and it is much easier to look at, and condemn someone else’s sin than our own.
I condemn no one.

Yes, I understand we are all sinners. But priests are authorized to do the consecration and and hear confessions because they are supposed to be models of holiness. I am not talking about personal sin. I am talking about organizational hypocrisy and insanity.

Why should a faithful Catholic not be allowed to give a homily, but a priest can give a homily saying that women will surely be priests or that people don’t see anything wrong with contraception? These are things I have heard in homilies by the way. This does not make sense to me.

Personal failure is one thing - widespread organized rebellion is another. Ever heard of VOTF? Ever heard of the group of priests that sent a rebelllion letter years ago that they won’t obey.

I am just issuing a wake up call.

Believe it or not I have compassion for humble weakness and personal sin. I have no compassion for tolerated rebellion by those who are to be the image and vicars of Jesus Christ Himself. That’s an organizational lie, not personal sin.

Was Jesus naive when he called the Pharisees snakes? How about when he made a whip out of cords.

I would have no problem if the priests weren’t supposed to be leaders and images of Jesus. I thought talking to a priest was to be almost the same as talking to Jesus Himself. Is this not true? Is this my misunderstanding?

I have no problem if they are sinners like everyone else, but why do they have such an exalted position? Why are those that are less faithful to the magsterium authorized to consecrate, give homilies, and hear confessions when a faithful lay person cannot? This seems like hypocrisy to me. This doesn’t make sense to me.

Thank You
 
I recommend Veritatis Splendor:

vatican.va/edocs/ENG0222/_INDEX.HTM%between%

Excerpts from Veritatis Splendor:

…to write an Encyclical with the aim of treating “more fully and more deeply the issues regarding the very foundations of moral theology”, foundations which are being undermined by certain present day tendencies.

…the intention of *clearly setting forth certain aspects of doctrine which are of crucial importance in facing what is certainly a genuine crisis, *since the difficulties which it engenders have most serious implications for the moral life of the faithful and for communion in the Church…

A comparison between the Church’s teaching and today’s social and cultural situation immediately makes clear the urgent need* for the Church herself to develop an intense pastoral effort precisely with regard to this fundamental question. *"This essential bond between Truth, the Good and Freedom has been largely lost sight of by present-day culture.

The attempt to set freedom in opposition to truth, and indeed to separate them radically, is the consequence, manifestation and consummation of another more serious and destructive dichotomy, that which separates faith from morality.
This separation represents one of the most acute pastoral concerns of the Church amid today’s growing secularism, wherein many, indeed too many, people think and live “as if God did not exist”. We are speaking of a mentality which affects, often in a profound, extensive and all-embracing way, even the attitudes and behaviour of Christians, whose faith is weakened and loses its character as a new and original criterion for thinking and acting in personal, family and social life. In a widely dechristianized culture, the criteria employed by believers themselves in making judgments and decisions often appear extraneous or even contrary to those of the Gospel.
 
More from Veritatis Splendor:

vatican.va/edocs/ENG0222/_INDEX.HTM

It is no longer a matter of limited and occasional dissent, but of an overall and systematic calling into question of traditional moral doctrine…

For the time will come when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths.

No damage must be done to the *harmony between faith and life: the unity of the Church *is damaged not only by Christians who reject or distort the truths of faith but also by those who disregard the moral obligations to which they are called by the Gospel (cf. 1 Cor 5:9-13). The Apostles decisively rejected any separation between the commitment of the heart and the actions which express or prove it (cf. 1 Jn 2:3-6). And ever since Apostolic times the Church’s Pastors have unambiguously condemned the behaviour of those who fostered division by their teaching or by their actions.

Opposition to the teaching of the Church’s Pastors cannot be seen as a legitimate expression either of Christian freedom or of the diversity of the Spirit’s gifts. When this happens, the Church’s Pastors have the duty to act in conformity with their apostolic mission, insisting that* the right of the faithful *to receive Catholic doctrine in its purity and integrity must always be respected.
 
I always want to reemphasise that I am not referring to the majority of the faithful priests who are indeed models of holiness - holiness that would certainly be a challenge for me to live up to.

For you such priests, I respect, encourage, and very much thank you.
 
Greg, I am truly not trying to get on your case. I think part of the problem is that there is a difficulty seperating out what a priest does (he represnts Christ: he is an “alter Christus”) from who he is. He is human, meaning he is as weak and sinfual as you or I. Who is at fault?

Well, we can blame the Pope; he seems to have taken on some of the blame himself, in admitting that he may have been too pastoral.

We can blame the bishops, who also in many circumstances have been too pastoral, or too busy doing something else to see what was going on, or liberal, or not ver smart or (fill in the blank).

We can blame the seminaries, who often strayed from Church teachings, and took some of Vatican 2 to mean what it never said.

We can blame the priests. I mean, how dense do you have to be?

And we can blame ourselves, for not calling them to a higher standard. And for not praying anywhere enough. And for not leading by example.

And if we dig deep enough, we might find that some of the pain is due to our setting the priests on a pedestal, and then being mad/hurt/amazed/aghast/pick you own term when they fell off.
 
Hello otm,
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otm:
I think part of the problem is that there is a difficulty seperating out what a priest does (he represnts Christ: he is an “alter Christus”) from who he is. He is human, meaning he is as weak and sinful as you or I.
I’m not talking about personal sin in this thread. I’m talking about organized rebellion.

Indeed, as Vertitatis Splendor indicates, there is a calling into question of Church teachings of such a magnitude that it has shaken the faithful and had massive repercussions for the general moral life of Catholics. This is not personal sin. This is widespread organized rebellion.

Greg
 
Hi all,
Moedom and ScottK came nearer the answer. If one is familiar with history, one may be saddened but not shocked. There would be less than a remanant left if most did not know that we do not follow /believe in a Priest or a Bishop but in Jesus and the Church He established. We stay in the Catholic Church, we believe, we pray!
I do have to disagree with any who indicated that one should stay put, so to speak, in a Parish that has gone “too” far astray unless that is the “only” Church available and one has “no” transportation to go elsewhere. To “go along” is often to be also guilty.There is a point of “no return” even for a Parish, especially, if it two or three thousand persons who like the “liberal” side of life and lack of solid teaching. To keep on supporting these Parishes by presence and money which allows “more” children to be mislead seems awful to this “ole” lady.
Our Lady, help of Christians, pray for us ,
Peace on earth to men of good will.
 
Greg, the cross has many shapes, each one tailor made for the bearer. Looks like this one is yours. And mine. One thing going against us is that Catholic laymen have been bred for silence, even in the face of abuse. Maybe it’s the Converts who are called to brace the spines of our leaders in this trying time? Converts join the Church of Polycarp, Ambrose, Augustine, Leo, Aquinas, Loyola, etc. Converts are not beholden to the often-imaginary church of “what it was like when I was a kid.”
 
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