Who is the authority of your church?

[BrianH]

I think that was my point.

Sure there are disagreements. I am thankful that the dialogue between our churches does not have the rancor one sees on this forum.

 

[Publisher]

I know you are a good man and a man who loves Christ but I’m afraid when you say you don’t care about the bread and wine turning into Christ is what I have a problem with. Also the Holy Mass is from God. I will pray that you know the true church of Christ.

Our oneness is found in Christ himself, “Christ in us the hope of glory”. If you find him in the eucharist great, I’m pleased you have found him, I have no problem with your belief. I am a member of his Church, joined in him through the work he has established in us by his Spirit…we share the same Spirit…it is the Holy Spirit which makes us one.

 

[jmcrae]

Our oneness is found in Christ himself, “Christ in us the hope of glory”. If you find him in the eucharist great, I’m pleased you have found him, I have no problem with your belief. I am a member of his Church, joined in him through the work he has established in us by his Spirit…we share the same Spirit…it is the Holy Spirit which makes us one.

But self-contradicts in His teaching, apparently.

 

[MHalsey]

…our “oneness” is through his work in us, not our beliefs about when to stand or kneel or sit…or whether to use sprinkling or pouring or immersion**…or whether the bread and wine change or not…**Christ and Christ alone works within us to redeem us and transform us into his people of faith…again it is Christ work within us that makes us “one in Christ” not what denomination we belong to…the “oneness” we believe in transcends all labels…he is our Shepherd…regardless of the sign outside the building we meet in to worship.

The problem here Publisher, is that to Catholics, this is not a “little thing”. The Eucharist is central to our faith. When did it become “a little thing” to protestants. It seems to me that something so central to the Catholic faith for 1500 years would be downgraded so much after the reformation. By whose authority did this happen and why?

 

[Righteousone]

I just find it unbelievable when you try and put an apple in front of someone and say “this is an apple”, and the other one replies, “no it isn’t, it is a fruit, and it is green and therefore doesn’t look like an apple, how do you know it’s an apple?”

Same for other religions…they just don’t get it.

 

[Publisher]

The problem here Publisher, is that to Catholics, this is not a “little thing”. The Eucharist is central to our faith. When did it become “a little thing” to protestants. It seems to me that something so central to the Catholic faith for 1500 years would be downgraded so much after the reformation. By whose authority did this happen and why?

For Friends the Real Presence is central to our faith as well, we feel that “outward forms” detract from our experience of the Real Presence. The Presence must be incorporated into the daily of our lives so that each act we engage in has sacramental meaning, each meal, each act of kindness, each task at hand has sacramental meaning, to the point where we become his very Body in this world.

It was not “downgraded”, it was made real and an immediate reality, no longer a “ritual” or “rite”, but to be “incarnated” into our lives.

 

[MHalsey]

For Friends the Real Presence is central to our faith as well, we feel that “outward forms” detract from our experience of the Real Presence. The Presence must be incorporated into the daily of our lives so that each act we engage in has sacramental meaning, each meal, each act of kindness, each task at hand has sacramental meaning, to the point where we become his very Body in this world.

It was not “downgraded”, it was made real and an immediate reality, no longer a “ritual” or “rite”, but to be “incarnated” into our lives.

But that doesn’t answer the question. For 1500 years the entire Christian world understood and accepted the Real Presence in the Eucharist. Apparently by your post, after the reformation, protestants no longer believed or were taught this. By whose authority did this change?

 

[Publisher]

But that doesn’t answer the question. For 1500 years the entire Christian world understood and accepted the Real Presence in the Eucharist. Apparently by your post, after the reformation, protestants no longer believed or were taught this. By whose authority did this change?

Through our living experience with God and His present reality in our lives. We do not deny that you can find the Real Presence in your rituals, but for Friends the Real Presence is known “experientially.”

 

[jmcrae]

Through our living experience with God and His present reality in our lives.

Isn’t this personal authority, based upon “it seems to me …” rather than on the teachings that the Apostles left for us to follow?

We do not deny that you can find the Real Presence in your rituals, but for Friends the Real Presence is known “experientially.”

Catholics know Jesus “experientially,” as well - a living relationship with Him as Spouse and Master is an outcome of receiving Him into our bodies at Holy Communion.

 

[Publisher]

Isn’t this personal authority, based upon “it seems to me …” rather than on the teachings that the Apostles left for us to follow?

It is a “personal authority” but not based on “it seems to me”…but based on Christ as Present Teacher. Friends believe we “live in that virtue and power of life of which the apostles themselves lived”…We do not follow the apostles…we follow Christ as the apostles themselves did.

Catholics know Jesus “experientially,” as well - a living relationship with Him as Spouse and Master is an outcome of receiving Him into our bodies at Holy Communion.

We too receive him into our bodies at Holy Communion, “communion after the manner of Friends”…a Real and Living Presence we receive in and through the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[jmcrae]

We too receive him into our bodies at Holy Communion, “communion after the manner of Friends”…a Real and Living Presence we receive in and through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Physically? (What is “after the manner of Friends”? I have no idea what that signifies.)

 

[Publisher]

Physically? (What is “after the manner of Friends”? I have no idea what that signifies.)

If you mean through transformed bread and wine…No…He indwells us by His Presence…He makes His home with us…we believe with you that our spirits are joined with His Spirit. We do not practice the “outward forms”.

 

[jmcrae]

If you mean through transformed bread and wine…No…He indwells us by His Presence…He makes His home with us…we believe with you that our spirits are joined with His Spirit. We do not practice the “outward forms”.

Ah. I think I understand. Perhaps you are something like the Gnostics, who believed that spiritual things could exist separately from physical things? (Of course, they took it further, and said that physical things were innately evil, while spiritual things - which of course were completely invisible - were innately good.)

 

[Publisher]

Ah. I think I understand. Perhaps you are something like the Gnostics, who believed that spiritual things could exist separately from physical things? (Of course, they took it further, and said that physical things were innately evil, while spiritual things - which of course were completely invisible - were innately good.)

No, we’re not “gnostic”, Friends seek to know God through inner experience…we seek to know Christ as Present Teacher. We do not forbid “outward forms” but feel that ‘outward forms’ can seek to take the place of the “Inward Reality” of which the “outward forms” seek to mediate. For this reason we seek to dispense with outward forms and ritual, we don’t always suceed, at times our meeting on the basis of “Silence” sometimes becomes an “outward form” and worship becomes dry and mechanical…but that is not the goal of “worship on the basis of Silence”, out of the Living Silence we seek to “hear” the very Word of God spoken in our midst through the Living, Present Christ.

 

[MrS]

We do not forbid “outward forms” but feel that ‘outward forms’ can seek to take the place of the “Inward Reality” of which the “outward forms” seek to mediate. For this reason we seek to dispense with outward forms and ritual, …

Thank you Lord for taking the outward form of a man.

 

[Publisher]

Thank you Lord for taking the outward form of a man.

Yes, thank Him indeed!

 

[Elric]

Aren’t they taking authority away from Jesus, if they tell the Sunday School teacher what to do? (Or fire her if she doesn’t do it?)

Are they?

How so?

Or does Jesus give authority to human beings, like the Catholic Church says?

So the pope should be teaching sunday school?

 

[Henry_Cornejo]

Indeed Jesus Christ is the sole authority over His Church. He received that authority from the Father. With this authority, Jesus established his Church on earth with the the 12 Apostles as the pioneers. He kept the 12 forming a college (where in fact that when they lost Judas, someone had to replace him later.) They remain distinct from all converts. When Jesus was about to depart from his earthly life,
He delegated to them His authoriy over His church:

Matthew 28:
16 And the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And seeing them they adored: but some doubted.18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Commentary:
18 “All power”… See here the warrant and commission of the apostles and their successors, the bishops and pastors of Christ’s church. He received from his Father all power in heaven and in earth: and in virtue of this power, he sends them (even as his Father sent him, St. John 20. 21) to teach and disciple, not one, but all nations; and instruct them in all truths: and that he may assist them effectually in the execution of this commission, he promises to be with them, not for three or four hundred years only, but all days, even to the consummation of the world. How then could the Catholic Church ever go astray; having always with her pastors, as is here promised, Christ himself, who is the way, the truth, and the life. St. John 14.
(passages and commentaries were taken from Douay-rheims Bible)

Jesus was clearly addressing the 11 Apostles. This was not addressed to other believers or to anyone reading the Bible.

The Apostles themselves delegated the task given to them. this transfer of authority still exist today and will continue until the consumation of the world. For those person claim that his authority came from Jesus or from the Bible , think again.

The Catholic Church (not Roman Catholic church) is founded not by a person who have read the Bible but was founded by Jesus Himself 400 years before the compilation of the Bible.

 

[jmcrae]

So the pope should be teaching sunday school?

I’m sure he does, or at least has in the past. More to the point, he confers Christ’s authority upon the Bishops, who in turn (in a limited manner) confer it upon Catholic educators, including Sunday School teachers. (As a Catechist, my boss is ultimately the Holy Roman Inquisition (also known as the Confraternity for Christian Doctrine), just before the Pope and Jesus. )

But before one can confer authority, one must have it, to begin with. Christ’s authority comes down to the Pope through the Apostolic Succession of St. Peter. A person can’t just randomly say, “Okay, I’m in charge here, now.”

 

[Elric]

I’m sure he does, or at least has in the past. More to the point, he confers Christ’s authority upon the Bishops, who in turn (in a limited manner) confer it upon Catholic educators, including Sunday School teachers. (As a Catechist, my boss is ultimately the Holy Roman Inquisition (also known as the Confraternity for Christian Doctrine), just before the Pope and Jesus. )

But before one can confer authority, one must have it, to begin with. Christ’s authority comes down to the Pope through the Apostolic Succession of St. Peter. A person can’t just randomly say, “Okay, I’m in charge here, now.”

Well this has certainly gotten off the track of what was being discussed (Jesus/God is the authority ect).

How do you know that they are right?