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MarkA16
Guest
I first thought it was Mary, Mother of God. But now I heard it’s Israel and the 12 stars represent the tribes. Which is it and why? My Catholic Youth Bible even states that it’s Israel.
- Status
M
MarkA16
Guest
Thanks!
M
MarkA16
Guest
M
MarkA16
Guest
Maybe I read this wrong, but I need a little clarification: If the verse(s) can be related to Israel, shouldn’t the whole thing be related to Israel? instead of, “this verse fits with Mary, and the one after can fit with Israel”?
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
Though it can and does have multiple meanings, Pope Pius XII when he infallibly defined the dogma of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Munificentissimus Deus (Most Bountiful God), he cited Revelation 12:1ff (ff = following verses) as a proof text for this teaching:
- Moreover, the scholastic Doctors have recognized the Assumption of the Virgin Mother of God as something signified, not only in various figures of the Old Testament, but also in that woman clothed with the sun whom John the Apostle contemplated on the Island of Patmos.(24)
- Rv 12:1ff.]
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NotWorthy
Guest
Israel is a Type of Mary, so it can apply to both, but more perfectly some.
Isaiah 7:14 is an example of a verse with 2 meanings. The sign that a son will be born to a maiden and he shall be called Immanuel was partially fulfilled in the OT as a sign for Asa (?). Then it was ultimately fulfilled in Jesus.
M
Mintaka
Guest
Israel (as an allegorical female figure) is a prefiguring of Mary, and Mary is the perfection of Israel. Mary remains constantly faithful and loving toward God, where Israel has some problems doing that. She’s also the glory of Israel, as she triumphs over the devil and thus wreaks Israel’s revenge on him. (Mwahaha!)
There’s a short but rather technical book on this subject by our current Pope (written back in the day) called Daughter of Zion. Still, it’s short and not super-scary (once you get past the first few pages, anyway!). Very scriptural. Talks about the roles of various women in the Old Testament, too. “The great women of Israel represent what this people itself is. The history of these women becomes the theology of God’s people, and at the same time, the theology of the covenant.”
“Israel herself, the chosen people, is interpreted simultaneously as woman, virgin, beloved, wife and mother.”
Very seldom is there a strict one-to-one allegory going on in Scripture, at least according to the traditional Christian and Jewish ways of thinking. When you say “this stands for this”, you usually have to qualify “according to this reading”. After all, pretty much everything said in the Bible of historical characters eventually applies to you, me, and Uncle Josie; so it’s not surprising that the Woman of Revelation would deliberately be set up to make even its readers back when it was written think of Mary, Israel, the Church, et al, and for later interpreters to find even more meanings.
If you’re not comfortable with this little thing having multiple meanings, you’re going to have a hard time with the rest of Scripture!
There’s a short but rather technical book on this subject by our current Pope (written back in the day) called Daughter of Zion. Still, it’s short and not super-scary (once you get past the first few pages, anyway!). Very scriptural. Talks about the roles of various women in the Old Testament, too. “The great women of Israel represent what this people itself is. The history of these women becomes the theology of God’s people, and at the same time, the theology of the covenant.”
“Israel herself, the chosen people, is interpreted simultaneously as woman, virgin, beloved, wife and mother.”
Very seldom is there a strict one-to-one allegory going on in Scripture, at least according to the traditional Christian and Jewish ways of thinking. When you say “this stands for this”, you usually have to qualify “according to this reading”. After all, pretty much everything said in the Bible of historical characters eventually applies to you, me, and Uncle Josie; so it’s not surprising that the Woman of Revelation would deliberately be set up to make even its readers back when it was written think of Mary, Israel, the Church, et al, and for later interpreters to find even more meanings.
If you’re not comfortable with this little thing having multiple meanings, you’re going to have a hard time with the rest of Scripture!
N
NotWorthy
Guest
Along that line of thinking, Noah and his Ark pre-figures Baptism (as most of us are already aware of), but it also pre-figures Moses in the basket as he travels in the Nile.
L
lak611
Guest
From the Haydock Commentary: “Ver. 1. A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet. By this woman, interpreters commonly understand the Church of Christ, shining with the light of faith, under the protection of the sun of justice, Jesus Christ. The moon, the Church, hath all changeable things of this world under her feet, the affections of the faithful being raised above them all. — A woman: the Church of God. It may also, by allusion, be applied to our blessed Lady [the Virgin Mary]. The Church is clothed with the sun, that is, with Christ: she hath the moon, that is, the changeable things of the world, under her feet; and the twelve stars with which she is crowned, are the twelve apostles: she is in labour and pain, whilst she brings forth her children, and Christ in them, in the midst of afflictions and persecutions. (Challoner) — On her head…twelve stars, her doctrine being delivered by the twelve apostles and their successors. (Witham)”
K
kujo313
Guest
All the symbols in Revelation are either defined in Revelation itself, or can be defined from the previous use of same word / symbol in the Tanakh. (SEE NOTE BELOW for the books in the Tanakh) In fact, I think this is why there is a blessing to those who read the Revelation; in order to understand it, you have to read and study all the prophetic passages of the Tanakh as well. So, you gain more than just a study of one book, but of many books.
In Rev. 12:1 the woman is described as a:
"great sign in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head twelve stars.
If we know what the sun, moon, and 12 stars mean here, we can know for sure who the woman is. So we need to go back to the Tanakh and get a definition of the symbols used.
“And he (Jospeh) dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?” Genesis 37:9,10
Gen. 37:10 clearly explains the symbols were Joseph’s family: the sun was his father Jacob , the moon was his mother Rachel, and the 11 stars were his brothers (aka the sons of Jacob, tribes of Israel ). So we know the woman in Revelation is Israel — a Jewish Israel. She wears the very early symbols given to Jacob and the tribes. This is about as Jewish as it gets.
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Yeshua HaMashiach." Revelation 12:17
Another proof text that the woman is Israel, because it was to Israel the commandments of G-d (referring to Sinai Covenant – the Torah) were given; but note the war isn’t with all her children, only those who also believe in Yeshua. The dragon is after believing Israel – the remnant – which is comprised of Torah observant Jewish believers and grafted in Gentiles. Hmmm, those who keep commandments and have faith in Yeshua … sounds like Torah Observant Messianics to me. Compare to:
“Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Yeshua.” Revelation 14:12
The woman in Revelation is Israel; her remnant is believing Israel.
In Rev. 12:1 the woman is described as a:
"great sign in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head twelve stars.
If we know what the sun, moon, and 12 stars mean here, we can know for sure who the woman is. So we need to go back to the Tanakh and get a definition of the symbols used.
“And he (Jospeh) dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?” Genesis 37:9,10
Gen. 37:10 clearly explains the symbols were Joseph’s family: the sun was his father Jacob , the moon was his mother Rachel, and the 11 stars were his brothers (aka the sons of Jacob, tribes of Israel ). So we know the woman in Revelation is Israel — a Jewish Israel. She wears the very early symbols given to Jacob and the tribes. This is about as Jewish as it gets.
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Yeshua HaMashiach." Revelation 12:17
Another proof text that the woman is Israel, because it was to Israel the commandments of G-d (referring to Sinai Covenant – the Torah) were given; but note the war isn’t with all her children, only those who also believe in Yeshua. The dragon is after believing Israel – the remnant – which is comprised of Torah observant Jewish believers and grafted in Gentiles. Hmmm, those who keep commandments and have faith in Yeshua … sounds like Torah Observant Messianics to me. Compare to:
“Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Yeshua.” Revelation 14:12
The woman in Revelation is Israel; her remnant is believing Israel.
- Books of the Tanakh
The Torah (“Law”) [also known as the Pentateuch/Humash] consists of:
- Genesis בראשית / B’reshit]
- Exodus שמות / Sh’mot]
- Leviticus ויקרא / Vayiqra]
- Numbers במדבר / B’midbar]
- Deuteronomy דברים / D’varim]
The books of Nevi’im (“Prophets”) are: - Joshua יהושע / Y’hoshua]
- Judges שופטים / Shophtim]
- Samuel (I & II) שמואל / Sh’muel]
- Kings (I & II) מלכים / M’lakhim]
- Isaiah ישעיה / Y’shayahu]
- Jeremiah ירמיה / Yir’mi’yahu]
- Ezekiel יחזקאל / Y’khezqel]
- The Twelve Minor Prophets תרי עשר]
I. Hosea הושע / Hoshea]
II. Joel יואל / Yo’el]
III. Amos עמוס / Amos]
IV. Obadiah עובדיה / Ovadyah]
V. Jonah יונה / Yonah]
VI. Micah מיכה / Mikhah]
VII. Nahum נחום / Nakhum]
VIII. Habakkuk חבקוק /Khavaquq]
IX. Zephaniah צפניה / Ts’phanyah]
X. Haggai חגי / Khagai]
XI. Zechariah זכריה / Z’kharyah]
XII. Malachi מלאכי / Mal’akhi]
The Kh’tuvim (“Writings”) are: - Psalms תהלים / T’hilim]
- Proverbs משלי / Mishlei]
- Job איוב / Iyov]
- Song of Songs שיר השירים / Shir Hashirim]
- Ruth רות / Rut]
- Lamentations איכה / Eikhah]
- Ecclesiastes קהלת / Qohelet]
- Esther אסתר / Est(h)er]
- Daniel דניאל / Dani’el]
- Ezra-Nehemiah עזרא ונחמיה / Ezra wuNekhem’ya]
- Chronicles (I & II) דברי הימים / Divrey Hayamim]
K
kentuckyliz
Guest
CCC 115-119 discusses the senses of Scripture; the spiritual senses (allegorical, moral, anagogical) are based on the literal sense. Mark Shea has a good book on this topic, “Making Senses of Scripture.”
So, start with the literal meaning. Obviously it’s a particular woman with a particular child, clear in context that it’s Mary and Jesus.
Mary is Daughter Sion and a type and figure of Israel.*
Mary is a type and figure of the Church.
The OT qahal becomes the NT ekklesia - the assembly, the People of God.
Mary is Queen of the Apostles, the 12 stars.
*Remember, Israel is bigger than the modern nation state that has existed since 1948, and bigger than Judaism, which is a remnant of the former Israel, the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. There were ten tribes lost in the Dispersion, intermarried among the Gentiles (the ethne, the nations), and considered lost and dead.
The OT prophets have God promising the restoration of ALL ISRAEL. How could that happen? By bringing in the Gentiles to the covenant! Those who were far, stuck in the Court of the Gentiles at the Temple, unable to draw near, were brought near.
Keep this sense of Israel in mind when reading Scripture, because it makes no sense otherwise.
Many non-Catholic/Orthodox Christians loathe the literal sense in reading Rev 12, because then that makes Mary our mother.
Read about Mary and the Church in the only DOGMATIC constitution of the Second Vatican Council - Lumen Gentium. What I am saying about Mary and the Church is not my own opinion, it’s a council teaching, and that is an exercise of infallibility–the college of bishops in union with the pope. Dogma means truth; this dogmatic constitution is teaching us about the Church. It’s a beautiful document.
The Navarre Bible has an excellent but long discussion of Rev 12 but I don’t have time to type it out because I have to go get ready for work now! Bunch of ECFs quoted.
One last thing: I love this line from the Song of Songs, used in the meeting prayers of the Legion of Mary, and it seems to tie in to Rev 12 to my mind:
Who is she that cometh forth like the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in battle array?
I really like that image. Then the next prayer is the Magnificat; the battle array we don is our souls magnifying the Lord! Praising and serving God slays dragons. Rev 12 shows that neither Mary nor we have to engage in direct battle with the red dragon who makes war on us; God fights the battle for us in the person of the great warrior archangel St. Michael. All we have to do is “flee immorality” (St Paul’s words).
Mary’s motherhood to all who keep the commandments of God and bear witness to Jesus Christ as shown in Rev 12 fits with Jesus’ words to the Beloved Disciple from the Cross: Behold your mother! I hope I count as a Beloved Disciple. That means I have a mother.
Rev 12 also shows that St Michael the Archangel and Jesus Christ are two different persons; there is some sect that thinks Jesus is Michael incarnate. JW’s? I forget. The truth is one and error is many!
So, start with the literal meaning. Obviously it’s a particular woman with a particular child, clear in context that it’s Mary and Jesus.
Mary is Daughter Sion and a type and figure of Israel.*
Mary is a type and figure of the Church.
The OT qahal becomes the NT ekklesia - the assembly, the People of God.
Mary is Queen of the Apostles, the 12 stars.
*Remember, Israel is bigger than the modern nation state that has existed since 1948, and bigger than Judaism, which is a remnant of the former Israel, the tribes of Judah and Benjamin. There were ten tribes lost in the Dispersion, intermarried among the Gentiles (the ethne, the nations), and considered lost and dead.
The OT prophets have God promising the restoration of ALL ISRAEL. How could that happen? By bringing in the Gentiles to the covenant! Those who were far, stuck in the Court of the Gentiles at the Temple, unable to draw near, were brought near.
Keep this sense of Israel in mind when reading Scripture, because it makes no sense otherwise.
Many non-Catholic/Orthodox Christians loathe the literal sense in reading Rev 12, because then that makes Mary our mother.
Read about Mary and the Church in the only DOGMATIC constitution of the Second Vatican Council - Lumen Gentium. What I am saying about Mary and the Church is not my own opinion, it’s a council teaching, and that is an exercise of infallibility–the college of bishops in union with the pope. Dogma means truth; this dogmatic constitution is teaching us about the Church. It’s a beautiful document.
The Navarre Bible has an excellent but long discussion of Rev 12 but I don’t have time to type it out because I have to go get ready for work now! Bunch of ECFs quoted.
One last thing: I love this line from the Song of Songs, used in the meeting prayers of the Legion of Mary, and it seems to tie in to Rev 12 to my mind:
Who is she that cometh forth like the morning rising, fair as the moon, bright as the sun, terrible as an army set in battle array?
I really like that image. Then the next prayer is the Magnificat; the battle array we don is our souls magnifying the Lord! Praising and serving God slays dragons. Rev 12 shows that neither Mary nor we have to engage in direct battle with the red dragon who makes war on us; God fights the battle for us in the person of the great warrior archangel St. Michael. All we have to do is “flee immorality” (St Paul’s words).
Mary’s motherhood to all who keep the commandments of God and bear witness to Jesus Christ as shown in Rev 12 fits with Jesus’ words to the Beloved Disciple from the Cross: Behold your mother! I hope I count as a Beloved Disciple. That means I have a mother.
Rev 12 also shows that St Michael the Archangel and Jesus Christ are two different persons; there is some sect that thinks Jesus is Michael incarnate. JW’s? I forget. The truth is one and error is many!
K
kujo313
Guest
Just what I knew what would happen!
The Jews would see the woman as Israel while the Catholics would see her as Mary. Wonder what the Muslims see her as?
To reply in the “tradition” of the RCC is to look at the “tradition” of the 1st century church during the lives of the apostles.
There is no written evidence from the aspostles, in the RCC’s Bible that Mary was “lifted up”/ admired, etc.
Though the RCC “claims” that it was verbally handed down and therefore accepted as truth, I could easliy tell you stories about my own bioligical father and you’d accept THAT as truth, too.
Writings from the late 1st Century and so on cannot be trusted and accepted as “truth” if they contradict the very actions of the apostles themselves.
HOW can Peter, Paul, James and John not mention Mary in their written letters in the RCC, or any other Bible, the same way the RCC treats her today?
How is it that if Mary was to be concidered so important to the Spiritual lives of every person that ever lived that she’s not even concidered so in the Gospels and letters?
The RCC tried so hard to get their “leaders” to say SOMETHING about Mary that they spent (and are currently spending) too much of their focus on her and not where 100% percent of it SHOULD be: on Jesus Christ!
Jesus’ answer for “who is my mother and who are my brothers?” is purposely overlooked by an “infallible” man who was elected to that office by “fallible” men. (Paul says that NOBODY on earth is “infallible”).
Scripture is enough. You shut the door on Mormons who have a “sequal” to the Bible but you say nothing about any additions or changes to the very Bible your religion claims to believe in.
There are thousands of different denominations out there because some of the biggest ones once said “there’s something wrong here” in your “traditions”.
The Jews would see the woman as Israel while the Catholics would see her as Mary. Wonder what the Muslims see her as?
To reply in the “tradition” of the RCC is to look at the “tradition” of the 1st century church during the lives of the apostles.
There is no written evidence from the aspostles, in the RCC’s Bible that Mary was “lifted up”/ admired, etc.
Though the RCC “claims” that it was verbally handed down and therefore accepted as truth, I could easliy tell you stories about my own bioligical father and you’d accept THAT as truth, too.
Writings from the late 1st Century and so on cannot be trusted and accepted as “truth” if they contradict the very actions of the apostles themselves.
HOW can Peter, Paul, James and John not mention Mary in their written letters in the RCC, or any other Bible, the same way the RCC treats her today?
How is it that if Mary was to be concidered so important to the Spiritual lives of every person that ever lived that she’s not even concidered so in the Gospels and letters?
The RCC tried so hard to get their “leaders” to say SOMETHING about Mary that they spent (and are currently spending) too much of their focus on her and not where 100% percent of it SHOULD be: on Jesus Christ!
Jesus’ answer for “who is my mother and who are my brothers?” is purposely overlooked by an “infallible” man who was elected to that office by “fallible” men. (Paul says that NOBODY on earth is “infallible”).
Scripture is enough. You shut the door on Mormons who have a “sequal” to the Bible but you say nothing about any additions or changes to the very Bible your religion claims to believe in.
There are thousands of different denominations out there because some of the biggest ones once said “there’s something wrong here” in your “traditions”.
N
NotWorthy
Guest
Kujo, there have been numerous threads in the recent weeks that have delved into your questions. Would you like to read through those and jump in, because you’ve addressed more than one thread in your post.
If you’d rather, we can walk down that merry path again, but I’d hate to de-rail this thread further.
.
If you’d rather, we can walk down that merry path again, but I’d hate to de-rail this thread further.
.
M
MarkA16
Guest
I’d like to hear from a Catholic please.
N
NotWorthy
Guest
It is Israel, who has the twelve tribes represented as the stars.
It is the New Covenant Church, which still cries out in anguish as it gives birth to Christians who must suffer persecution.
It is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, the New Eve, the Queen of Heaven which is the New Jerusalem.
One thing to consider. In this scene, you have a child (Jesus) and a Dragon (Satan). Both of these represent individuals. The woman, first and foremost should also represent a woman. This would be Mary. Israel and the New Covenant Church would be secondary types of the “woman”.
In this scene:
It is the New Covenant Church, which still cries out in anguish as it gives birth to Christians who must suffer persecution.
It is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, the New Eve, the Queen of Heaven which is the New Jerusalem.
One thing to consider. In this scene, you have a child (Jesus) and a Dragon (Satan). Both of these represent individuals. The woman, first and foremost should also represent a woman. This would be Mary. Israel and the New Covenant Church would be secondary types of the “woman”.
In this scene:
- We see the Ark of the Covenant be replaced by Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant.
- We see Genesis begin with a battle between Adam, Eve, and Satan. We see Revelation end with a battle between Jesus (the 2nd Adam), Mary (the 2nd Eve), and Satan.
- We see Mary, as Queen in Heaven with her crown.
G
Grace_Angel
Guest
Hello Todd,
I also think the woman is Mary but I also think it is the Church. However, Israel, eve, are “types” just as “Isaac” is a type of Jesus. The Church is in the image and likeness of Mary and continues as the bride of Christ.
I think if we understood this well we would have confidence in the Holy Catholic church and we would understand that whilst there are sinful members within this “body of the bride” she is His own and on the jopurney to her “bridegroom” she becomes, spotless.
Grace Angel.
J
jamannor
Guest
I agree that she is all the things from above, but Mary is very easily seen in this woman.
when you look at versus five you see that the woman from revelation from
You can see that the male child is Jesus look at Revelation 19:15
Jesus Christ is the King of kings and Lord of lords. Obviously this male child is Jesus and thus the woman is Mary.
The church bares Jesus to the world but the church didn’t originally bring forth Jesus but Jesus brought forth the church.
Jesus is a son of Israel.
But because of the individuality of the passage Jesus and the dragon (Satan) the woman must be an individual too.
Look at
Mary, Jesus and Satan all representative in both places.
I also like looking at 11:19 where is shows that the ark of the covenant is in the temple and right afterwards its talking to
G
Grace_Angel
Guest
Hello Mark,
I am a catholic in good standing (I hope) and I understand the woman in Revelation to be firstly Mary of Nazsareth, in whose image is the Church the bride of Christ.
So to answer you, I believe it is Both Mary and the Church.
Grace Angel.
J
jamannor
Guest
I agree that she is all the things from above, but Mary is very easily seen in this woman. (I just did a study on it from online, I took pretty good notes, so I’m going to write them out.)
when you look at versus five you see that the woman from revelation from
You can see that the male child is Jesus look at Revelation 19:15
Jesus Christ is the King of kings and Lord of lords. Obviously this male child is Jesus and thus the woman is Mary.
The church bares Jesus to the world but the church didn’t originally bring forth Jesus but Jesus brought forth the church.
Jesus is a son of Israel.
But because of the individuality of the passage Jesus and the dragon (Satan) the woman must be an individual too.
Look at
Mary, Jesus and Satan all representative in both places.
I also like looking at 11:19 where it shows that the ark of the covenant is in the temple and right afterwards its talking about the woman.
And to prove that Mary is the ark of the covenant you need to look at
you can also look at 1 Kings 8:10
2 Samuel 6 is also a parallel to Luke 1.
- Status