Who is the lady in Revelation 12:1?

[colliric]

2nd The figures that appear in Revelation 12 are the same as those that appear in the proto-gospel of Genesis. Genesis 3:15. “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.” Satan is both the Serpent of Genesis, and the Dragon of Revelation. Jesus is the “seed” who will crush the serpent in Genesis, and the child who will rule with a rod of iron in Revelation. In both, He and His mother, the Woman, are at permanent enmity with the serpent. The Woman of Genesis 3 and Revelation 12 is the same. However no one suggests that the woman of Genesis 3 is Israel

That passage can be correctly translated many diffrent ways which imply slightly different meanings:

DR:
She shall crush your head, and you shall lie in wait for her heel

REV:
They will strike at your head, and you will strike at their heal

KJV:
it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

English translation of the Holy Tanakh by Jewish Publication Society:
They shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise their heel.

The reason is that the word which translates here as “He” can also be translated correctly as “She”, “They” or “It” and many other simular english words.

3:15 is a prophecy about the Messiah, but it is actually rather difficult to decipher if the messiah is the one who crushes satan personally. Different translators have taken the word to translate differently. Christian Translators have favored the “he” translation just to make it apply to Jesus, when in fact it may actually apply to the church(they and possibly also the “it” translation), the apostles(they again), Christians(also when it’s translated as “they”) and Mary(the DR translation).

The Jewish translation seems to imply Israel as being mentioned here as Eve’s offspring.

I don’t mean to refute your posting because without knowing what moses ment exactly here, either one of these translations of the word “HUW” and the Greek version(which is just as ambigious)“Autos” is valid. But I find it interesting that Genesis 3:15 is not uniformly translated and neither is it uniformly interpreted, even though most Christian bibles will tend to use “He” these days to try and make the general view be that it is the Messiah alone, when it may or may not be.

“HUW” and “Autos”(Septuagint translation) both do not only translate as “He”, in fact “they” and “she” are also represented by BOTH these words, and that makes this passage terribly unclear.

 

[kujo313]

I’m not following your logic, please clarify… If Jesus is our judge** or** our savior, this answers our question of Mary being our mother? I think Jesus is our judge and our savior, so I guess my answer is yes, to your question. And for scripture, read John 19: 25-27. And as a disciple that Jesus loves, you too should welcome Mary into your own home. Why quote from Matthew 5:37? None on this board are swearing an oath, as in I swear to God, or heaven, or Marry, or anything like that. Why use this simple yes or no quote? I also warn you not to judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. I also agree with you how God provided his own lamb, the perfect sacrifice. Isn’t amazing how much God loves us to give us his own Son. Amazing!

If I may go into “tradition”, nobody mentioned Mary at all after that. She hung around the disciples and then she wasn’t mentioned at all in the Bible. It would be healthy for believers to start a tradition that COMES from the Bible, Itself.
If we take literally accepting Mary as our mother, then why aren’t we plucking out eyeballs or cutting off hands?
Catholics take words of Jesus literally only if they want to. Jesus, as prophesied, spoke in parables. WHY is it, then, that Catholics accept Mary as their mother because Jesus said “behold your mother” to one disciple and nobody else mentions her… while Jesus says other parables and nobody takes them literally?

Also, if my grandmother was alive today, she’d want to know “What about Jesus’ GRANDPARENTS?” Don’t we have Mary’s parents as OUR parents? Aunts? Uncles? Cousins?

 

[Tom317]

I believe:

1). The woman is the Church.

2). The twelve stars represent the twelve apostles.

3). The child in borth pains is the Church at a later date, during which it is suffering enormous persecution, trial and woes.

4). During the future time of her greates trial, the Church will give birth (elect) a new Pope that will rule the Church with a rod of iron that only Christ and His Vicar can do.

 

[NotWorthy]

If we take literally accepting Mary as our mother, then why aren’t we plucking out eyeballs or cutting off hands?
Catholics take words of Jesus literally only if they want to. Jesus, as prophesied, spoke in parables. WHY is it, then, that Catholics accept Mary as their mother because Jesus said “behold your mother” to one disciple and nobody else mentions her… while Jesus says other parables and nobody takes them literally?

So I guess you believe that when Jesus said, “This is my body”, then…?

 

[NotWorthy]

WHY is it, then, that Catholics accept Mary as their mother because Jesus said “behold your mother” to one disciple and nobody else mentions her… while Jesus says other parables and nobody takes them literally?

The Apostle John revealed that answer: Rev. 12:17

Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus.

 

[kujo313]

The Apostle John revealed that answer: Rev. 12:17

So then, Revelation 12 does not say what to DO with the woman. Traditionally, nobody really lifted Mary up like the Catholic religion does.
You can mention all the “Protestant” people you want, but they only talk about it hundreds of years later.
Not unless it’s talking about the “great whore” who sits on seven hills… like the woman on the Roman coin of the first century: Roma or “Rome”. Who is it now? Vatican City: capitol of the Catholic religion who’s icons are similiar to that of Isis.

Plain and simple: can’t you mention Jesus without mentioning any body else?

 

[NotWorthy]

So then, Revelation 12 does not say what to DO with the woman. Traditionally, nobody really lifted Mary up like the Catholic religion does.

Why Thank You!!! It’s nice to be recognized for our efforts!!!

You can mention all the “Protestant” people you want, but they only talk about it hundreds of years later.

That’s because there were no “Protestants” until 100’s of years later.

Psssst. Want to know a secret? The “Trail of Blood” is a lie!

Not unless it’s talking about the “great whore” who sits on seven hills… like the woman on the Roman coin of the first century: Roma or “Rome”. Who is it now?

Why, you can’t be insinuating, can you? No, I’m sure you’re not. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, there.

Vatican City: capitol of the Catholic religion who’s icons are similiar to that of Isis.

Oh my goodness, you are!!! Catholic’s have replaced the Egyptian worship of Isis with Mary???

That’s incredible!!!

As a not-so-worthy man said the other day.

Apologetics through Obfuscation!

Basically, you CAN’T prove to us that the Woman IN SCRIPTURE is not Mary, so you go to mud-slinging instead.

Plain and simple: can’t you mention Jesus without mentioning any body else?

Why yes, we can. Have you been to Mass lately? My necks hurts from bowing all the times that Jesus is mentioned during Mass.

God Bless you, kujo, and may He some day open up your eyes to His Truth.

 

[jamannor]

If I may go into “tradition”, nobody mentioned Mary at all after that. She hung around the disciples and then she wasn’t mentioned at all in the Bible. It would be healthy for believers to start a tradition that COMES from the Bible, Itself.
If we take literally accepting Mary as our mother, then why aren’t we plucking out eyeballs or cutting off hands?
Catholics take words of Jesus literally only if they want to. Jesus, as prophesied, spoke in parables. WHY is it, then, that Catholics accept Mary as their mother because Jesus said “behold your mother” to one disciple and nobody else mentions her… while Jesus says other parables and nobody takes them literally?

Also, if my grandmother was alive today, she’d want to know “What about Jesus’ GRANDPARENTS?” Don’t we have Mary’s parents as OUR parents? Aunts? Uncles? Cousins?

No one? Turn your bible a few pages later and look at Acts 1:14, . There she is again. And than turn it to the back in revelation. I also find it funny that you say no one mentions her at all after that. There are about two thousand years of Mary talk, and that’s if you don’t count going back to Genesis. Just because it isn’t in the bible doesn’t make it less valid. If you want to go into Sola Scriptura I’m sure we can start a new thread, but to the topic at hand…Why don’t you look up when people started to not believe that Mary wasn’t significant. You would of course find that it is rather new. Even the great Martin Luther believed in the Marian Doctrines. “Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honored? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent’s head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing.” This brings us at least too 1554 of Mary honoring. Why though? And so she hung around the disciples and then just vanished? Why than was her image pictured on the ancient catacombs. The early fathers did write of her, but they also never imagined her to be questioned. Was Jesus talking in Parables during his Passion? I’m unsure, I guess he could be but what is the point? Explain. I would tell you that John was a first hand whiteness to the passion, and thus it makes since that none of the other gospels talk of what He said to him. What would the difference be if they did? And of course your grandmother is a wise woman… Mary did have a mother, and father. Look them up in the catholic encyclopedia. I still am waiting to be educated, and hope you decide to answer my above questions from my previous posts because if you can prove that any of the catholic views are false I’ll leave the church today.

 

[kujo313]

Why Thank You!!! It’s nice to be recognized for our efforts!!!

That’s because there were no “Protestants” until 100’s of years later.

Psssst. Want to know a secret? The “Trail of Blood” is a lie!

Why, you can’t be insinuating, can you? No, I’m sure you’re not. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, there.

Oh my goodness, you are!!! Catholic’s have replaced the Egyptian worship of Isis with Mary???

That’s incredible!!!

As a not-so-worthy man said the other day.

Basically, you CAN’T prove to us that the Woman IN SCRIPTURE is not Mary, so you go to mud-slinging instead.
Why yes, we can. Have you been to Mass lately? My necks hurts from bowing all the times that Jesus is mentioned during Mass.

God Bless you, kujo, and may He some day open up your eyes to His Truth.

Catholics say it’s Mary, Jews say it’s Israel.

Genesis 39:9-11
9 Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, “Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me.”
10 So he told it to his father and his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have dreamed? Shall your mother and I and your brothers indeed come to bow down to the earth before you?”
11 And his brothers envied him, but his father kept the matter in mind.

Jesus, son of David, came from Israel. Further in Revelation 12, the devil will make war with the woman.
Since 1948, Israel has been attacked thousands of times… more than any other group or country. The President of Iran, and other Islamic leaders, have declaired a war with Israel, specifically.

 

[kujo313]

No one? Turn your bible a few pages later and look at Acts 1:14, . There she is again. And than turn it to the back in revelation. I also find it funny that you say no one mentions her at all after that. There are about two thousand years of Mary talk, and that’s if you don’t count going back to Genesis. Just because it isn’t in the bible doesn’t make it less valid. If you want to go into Sola Scriptura I’m sure we can start a new thread, but to the topic at hand…Why don’t you look up when people started to not believe that Mary wasn’t significant. You would of course find that it is rather new. Even the great Martin Luther believed in the Marian Doctrines. “Is Christ only to be adored? Or is the holy Mother of God rather not to be honored? This is the woman who crushed the Serpent’s head. Hear us. For your Son denies you nothing.” This brings us at least too 1554 of Mary honoring. Why though? And so she hung around the disciples and then just vanished? Why than was her image pictured on the ancient catacombs. The early fathers did write of her, but they also never imagined her to be questioned. Was Jesus talking in Parables during his Passion? I’m unsure, I guess he could be but what is the point? Explain. I would tell you that John was a first hand whiteness to the passion, and thus it makes since that none of the other gospels talk of what He said to him. What would the difference be if they did? And of course your grandmother is a wise woman… Mary did have a mother, and father. Look them up in the catholic encyclopedia. I still am waiting to be educated, and hope you decide to answer my above questions from my previous posts because if you can prove that any of the catholic views are false I’ll leave the church today.

Never asking you to leave the place where you worship. Just change your focus. “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” “Those who do the Will of God ARE my brothers and my mother.”

Mary DOES deserve to be in the Top Ten of the “Who’s Who in the Bible”, but not so high of placement as the RCC does.

In the end, it’s “Is Jesus your Savior or your Judge?” It’s not “Did you obey Mother?”

Matthew 10:22; Mark 13:13 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to passThat whoever calls on the name of the LORDShall be saved.
Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
Acts 16:30-31
And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

• Oops! Paul wasn’t a “pope” so does his words count?
  Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
  Romans 10:8-9 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”(that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
  Romans 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

I think that we’re trying to get “saved”. Only the Blood of Jesus can do that.

 

[kujo313]

The Apostle John revealed that answer: Rev. 12:17

Terrorists are going after the “Saturday people first, then the Sunday people”. That phrase has been echoed throughout the Muslims in Jerusalem and now through Muslim terrorist groups.

The “Saturday People” refer to Jews. The “Sunday People” refer to Christians. Note: “Christians”, not “Catholics”.

So far, Catholics are safe.

 

[jamannor]

Never asking you to leave the place where you worship. Just change your focus. “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” “Those who do the Will of God ARE my brothers and my mother.”

Mary DOES deserve to be in the Top Ten of the “Who’s Who in the Bible”, but not so high of placement as the RCC does.

In the end, it’s “Is Jesus your Savior or your Judge?” It’s not “Did you obey Mother?”

Matthew 10:22; Mark 13:13 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to passThat whoever calls on the name of the LORDShall be saved.
Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
Acts 16:30-31
And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

• Oops! Paul wasn’t a “pope” so does his words count?
  Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
  Romans 10:8-9 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”(that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
  Romans 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

I think that we’re trying to get “saved”. Only the Blood of Jesus can do that.

Friend I agree with most of what you say here. I never mentioned that you wanted me to leave the place where I worshiped, but why are you on an apologetic site unless you want to change a few minds to the truth. I believe Jesus Christ is the way and the truth and if the church isn’t following this, than I’d leave today. Now friend, with these quotes, I’m going to approach it gently. Amen, I agree one hundred percent with everything this scripture states. Remember Catholics made the bible. You are being condescending when you ask the pope question, of course Paul’s words are count. Have I ever said anything that would contradict this? He was an apostle.

Now, I for one have never given Mary the power of being my savior. And if you found a Catholic who did, I hope you pray for them, as I will. Have you ever looked at the Catechism. It isn’t full of Marian doctrine, in fact I would say that everything stated about Mary always reflects Christ. I agree with you that Christ’s blood and body are the perfect sacrifice that provides us salvation.

I guess I have a new question for you. Why do you think that Catholics put Mary before Christ? Where do you get that we think through Mary we are saved? This is one thread in a forum that talks about many subjects. The people in this thread will talk about Mary because that is what the subject is about. You came into the thread looking to prove something. We mentioned something about tradition and you shoved it down our throats. I ask where does it show that our tradition shouldn’t be used? Where does it say that Scripture is the only thing that should be used? You mention the Jews in one of your post, but the Jews used more than just the bible they believed in traditions of the Talmud. Anyways, it’s late here in Michigan, so I’m off to bed. Peace to you.

~Jerry

 

[NotWorthy]

Catholics say it’s Mary, Jews say it’s Israel.

Correction, Catholics says it’s Mary, Israel, and the New Church.

Jesus, son of David, came from Israel. Further in Revelation 12, the devil will make war with the woman.
Since 1948, Israel has been attacked thousands of times… more than any other group or country. The President of Iran, and other Islamic leaders, have declaired a war with Israel, specifically.

If you honestly think that the Israel of today is the continuation or even a renewal of David’s kingdom…

The Israel today is not the Israel of any prophecies.

 

[Axion]

Never asking you to leave the place where you worship. Just change your focus. “Rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” “Those who do the Will of God ARE my brothers and my mother.”

And WHO did the will of God most perfectly among humans?

You?

Mary DOES deserve to be in the Top Ten of the “Who’s Who in the Bible”, but not so high of placement as the RCC does.

Your opinion. On what basis should we follow your or your pastors opinion in opposition to that of the Church throughout the ages?

In the end, it’s “Is Jesus your Savior or your Judge?” It’s not “Did you obey Mother?”

This setting up the tactic of a FALSE CONTRADICTION. There is, of course, no opposition between Jesus being our Saviour and Judge, and properly honouring His Virgin Mother.

Matthew 10:22; Mark 13:13 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John 10:9 I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to passThat whoever calls on the name of the LORDShall be saved.
Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
Acts 16:30-31
And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

• Oops! Paul wasn’t a “pope” so does his words count?
  Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
  Romans 10:8-9 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”(that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
  Romans 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

All of this is totally irrelevant to the topic of the discussion here.

Just cutting and pasting random texts is not engaging in the discussion. As we all know taken in WHOLE - not just selecting random texts, the gospels teach that we must FOLLOW Jesus and DO WHAT HE TEACHES US, in order to gain final salvation. It is not just a matter of saying a few words in a state of emotion.

I think that we’re trying to get “saved”. Only the Blood of Jesus can do that.

Again totally irrrelevant to the discussion. the discussion is about whether Revelation 12 refers to Mary. Your argument seems to be saying that you believe Mary is only some sort of hindrance from Christianity and that therefore - by reverse exegesis - Revelation 12 can’t be about Mary!

Cart before the horse methinks.

 

[lak611]

Catholics say it’s Mary, Jews say it’s Israel.

Jews do not say the woman in Revelation 12:1 is Israel. They do not believe that Revelation (or any part of the New Testament) is scripture. The Hebrew Bible is strictly the Old Testament. That is why they are Jewish, not Christian.

 

[colliric]

Jews do not say the woman in Revelation 12:1 is Israel. They do not believe that Revelation (or any part of the New Testament) is scripture. The Hebrew Bible is strictly the Old Testament. That is why they are Jewish, not Christian.

He is talking about Genesis 3:15, not revelation 12. He is talking about who in both traditions is given the role of defeating Sin.

The DR translation of Genesis infers that it is Mary which helps in the destruction of Satan.

This is actually a Valid translation because the word which translates as “he” also translates as “She”,“they” or “it” and has been done so by differing bible translations

“He” most christian translations, in order to apply it to Jesus more.
“She” Douay Rheims and the Vulgate.
“They” Some christian translations and Jewish translations into English. The Jewish one infers it is Israel, the decendants of Eve, which defeats the devil.
“It” KJV.

The christian tradition draws links between this passage and Revelation 12. The Jewish tradition doesn’t, however this passage for genesis is prophecy for them too about how the serpent is defeated and they think it’s the descendants of Eve.

 

[kujo313]

Friend I agree with most of what you say here. I never mentioned that you wanted me to leave the place where I worshiped, but why are you on an apologetic site unless you want to change a few minds to the truth. I believe Jesus Christ is the way and the truth and if the church isn’t following this, than I’d leave today. Now friend, with these quotes, I’m going to approach it gently. Amen, I agree one hundred percent with everything this scripture states. Remember Catholics made the bible. You are being condescending when you ask the pope question, of course Paul’s words are count. Have I ever said anything that would contradict this? He was an apostle.

Now, I for one have never given Mary the power of being my savior. And if you found a Catholic who did, I hope you pray for them, as I will. Have you ever looked at the Catechism. It isn’t full of Marian doctrine, in fact I would say that everything stated about Mary always reflects Christ. I agree with you that Christ’s blood and body are the perfect sacrifice that provides us salvation.

I guess I have a new question for you. Why do you think that Catholics put Mary before Christ? Where do you get that we think through Mary we are saved? This is one thread in a forum that talks about many subjects. The people in this thread will talk about Mary because that is what the subject is about. You came into the thread looking to prove something. We mentioned something about tradition and you shoved it down our throats. I ask where does it show that our tradition shouldn’t be used? Where does it say that Scripture is the only thing that should be used? You mention the Jews in one of your post, but the Jews used more than just the bible they believed in traditions of the Talmud. Anyways, it’s late here in Michigan, so I’m off to bed. Peace to you.

~Jerry

There is no doubt that many members of the RCC give credit of answered prayers to saints. Jesus told us believers to pray TO God, Himself. The torn veil is God telling us that we can go DIRECTLY to Him.
It is also no doubt that many members of the RCC pray directly to the saints and thank the saints for ansered prayer.
It is also no doubt that on the desk of JPII was an oder of declaring Mary co-mediator with Jesus. Embroidered on his outfits was a credit to Mary and he even gave credit for surviving an assasin’s bullet to her.
If Jesus tells us to go directly to God, isn’t that “case closed”? True followers of Christ would do this.
Now, as an intercessor, I only ASK some one to pray for me. I don’t pray TO an intercessor.
An intercessor who says “yes” is saying “I’ll pray to God WITH you.”

(lady in Rev 12: Israel)

 

[NotWorthy]

It is also no doubt that many members of the RCC pray directly to the saints and thank the saints for ansered prayer.

Yes, and yes. I thank Jesus and the saint(s).

It is also no doubt that on the desk of JPII was an oder of declaring Mary co-mediator with Jesus. Embroidered on his outfits was a credit to Mary and he even gave credit for surviving an assasin’s bullet to her.

He had an oder declaring Mary co-mediator?

Define “co-mediator” or “co-mediatrix” for a more accurate word of what Mary is considered.

If Jesus tells us to go directly to God, isn’t that “case closed”? True followers of Christ would do this.

So, if Jesus says, “This is my Body…” then it’s “case closed”?

Now, as an intercessor, I only ASK some one to pray for me. I don’t pray TO an intercessor.
An intercessor who says “yes” is saying “I’ll pray to God WITH you.”

You’ve just described our prayers and petitions to Mary and the Saints and you’ve just as well described the answer to us.

You’re becoming more Catholic each and every post, Kujo!!!

 

[kujo313]

And WHO did the will of God most perfectly among humans?

You?

The Bible says to test yourself to see if you’re in the faith. Clean your own closet. Once you do, then you’re in.

This setting up the tactic of a FALSE CONTRADICTION. There is, of course, no opposition between Jesus being our Saviour and Judge, and properly honouring His Virgin Mother. Actions DO speak louder than words. The writings from Acts to Jude show no evidence of any proper honor given to Mary.

All of this is totally irrelevant to the topic of the discussion here.

  I agree.

Your argument seems to be saying that you believe Mary is only some sort of hindrance from Christianity and that therefore - by reverse exegesis - Revelation 12 can’t be about Mary! No, your argument is that of somebody who receives a gift, removes the gift from the box and then just playing with the box. Meanwhile, people around are saying “no! no! Look at your gift!” while you’re paying attention to the box, instead.

Cart before the horse methinks.

  Actually, it's Catholics changing the Bible to THEIR beliefs and traditions instead of the other way around.  Believers should be doing the Will of God in hope to be called "brother" and "mother" of Jesus instead of trying to hold one woman as everybody's mother.

Jesus is saying “One for all”. The RCC is saying “all for one.”

 

[NotWorthy]

BTW, if you are having trouble reading Kujo’s beautiful choice of font colors, just high-light it by dragging your mouse over it.

Ouila!!