Who is the lady in Revelation 12:1?

[jamannor]

There is no doubt that many members of the RCC give credit of answered prayers to saints. Jesus told us believers to pray TO God, Himself. The torn veil is God telling us that we can go DIRECTLY to Him.
It is also no doubt that many members of the RCC pray directly to the saints and thank the saints for ansered prayer.
It is also no doubt that on the desk of JPII was an oder of declaring Mary co-mediator with Jesus. Embroidered on his outfits was a credit to Mary and he even gave credit for surviving an assasin’s bullet to her.
If Jesus tells us to go directly to God, isn’t that “case closed”? True followers of Christ would do this.
Now, as an intercessor, I only ASK some one to pray for me. I don’t pray TO an intercessor.
An intercessor who says “yes” is saying “I’ll pray to God WITH you.”

(lady in Rev 12: Israel)

I agree:thumbsup:, and so what? Thank you mother Mary for praying for me and saving my life. If she is praying for me, isn’t that her going to Christ? Why can’t she do this?

Hmmm, and our friend Paul, as you pointed out he wasn’t a pope, but he tells us in 1 Timothy 2: 1-5 that “I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone- for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.” So intercessory prayers are good, at least according to Paul. I agree that we can go directly to God, but to pray for others is what we Christians do. Paul does it all over the NT, and he asks us to pray for him. Jesus answers prayers based on other people’s faith. This is seen in the gospels.

I still have not gotten answers from my questions above.

~Jerry

 

[mirandajb]

I believe:

1). The woman is the Church.

2). The twelve stars represent the twelve apostles.

3). The child in borth pains is the Church at a later date, during
which it is suffering enormous persecution, trial and woes.

4). During the future time of her greates trial, the Church will give
birth (elect) a new Pope that will rule the Church with a rod of
iron that only Christ and His Vicar can do.

1. Woman - Actually both Mary and the Church in the end times
2. The 12 stars - Stars represent saints. For Jews it would be the
   12 tribes and for Christians the 12 apostles
3. Man Child - Both Jesus Christ and overcomers who flee to
   the mountains in the wake of tribulation - end times
4. I don’t think it could be the Pope but more as explained in 3.

 

[christcnection1]

When I was an Evangelical, I had a dream about the Blessed Virgin Mary. At the time I did not know it was her, but had a sense that it might be.

Well, this terrified me; however, in the dream, she was full of light, full of love, and was drawing me to herself. The phrase that kept coming to my mind was Revelations 12… Revelations 12… Revelations 12.

I DID NOT WANT TO BELIEVE IT!

About a year later, and several supernatural events, and months of study, I arrived home to the Catholic faith.

It feels great to be home!

 

[joemizzi]

Pope Pius XII used this passage as evidence for the dogma of the Assumption. He wrote: “The scholastic Doctors have recognized the Assumption of the Virgin Mother of God as something signified, not only in various figures of the Old Testament, but also in that woman clothed with the sun whom John the Apostle contemplated on the Island of Patmos” (Munificentissimus Deus).

This interpretation presents a major theological difficulty to Roman Catholicism, for the Church teaches that Mary was immaculate from conception, that is, without original sin. Now we know that pain, suffering and death came into the world because of Adam’s sin, and being his offspring, we share in the consequences of the fall. In particular, the Bible describes the pain of childbirth as a result of original sin: “I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; in pain you shall bring forth children” (Genesis 3:16).

If Mary was free from original sin, she would not have suffered during the birth of her Son. Pope Alexander III stated explicitly that Mary had given birth to Christ without pain: “Mary conceived without detriment to her virginity, gave birth to her Son without pain, and departed hence without being subject to corruption.” [Virgin Wholly Marvelous, Peter Brookby, ed., The Ravengate Press, 1981]

However, the woman in Revelation 12 was in great distress: she “cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.” Since the pain of childbirth results from original sin, the woman of Revelation 12 could not be immaculate and without sin.

Personally, I am not convinced that the woman is a description of Mary; more likely it is a figure of God’s people, in conflict with our enemy, the Devil. This agrees with the interpretation of the early Church Fathers.

“Now, concerning the tribulation of the persecution which is to fall upon the Church from the adversary, John also speaks thus: “And I saw a great and wondrous sign in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun …By the woman then clothed with the sun, he meant most manifestly the Church, endued with the Father’s word, whose brightness is above the sun. And by the “moon under her feet” he referred to her being adorned” (Hippolytus, Treatise on Christ and Antichrist).

“The woman clothed with the sun, and having the moon under her feet, and wearing a crown of twelve stars upon her head, and travailing in her pains, is the ancient Church of fathers, and prophets, and saints, and apostles, which had the groans and torments of its longing until it saw that Christ, the fruit of its people according to the flesh long promised to it, had taken flesh out of the selfsame people” (Victorinus, Commentary on the Apocalypse).

A Roman Catholic Bible commentary concurs:

“Most of the ancient commentators identified her with the Church; in the Middle Ages it was widely held that she represented Mary, the Mother of Jesus. Modern exegetes have generally adopted the older interpretation, with certain modifications. In recent years several Catholics have championed the Marian interpretation. Numerous contextual details, however, are ill-suited to such an explanation. For example, we are scarcely to think that Mary endured the worst of the pains of childbirth (v. 2), that she was pursued into the desert after the birth of her child (vv. 6, 13ff.), or, finally, that she was persecuted through her other children (v. 17). The emphasis on the persecution of the woman is really appropriate only if she represents the Church, which is presented throughout the book as oppressed by the forces of evil, yet protected by God. Furthermore, the image of a woman is common in ancient Oriental secular literature as well as in the Bible (e.g., Is 50:1; Jer 50:12) as a symbol for a people, a nation, or a city. It is fitting, then, to see in this woman the People of God, the true Israel of the OT and NT.” [D’Argon J-L. “The Apocalypse.” The Jerome Biblical Commentary, ed. Raymond E. Brown, Joseph A. Fitzmyer, Roland E. Murphy (London: Geoffrey Chapman, 1969)]

 

[NotWorthy]

Joe, good to have you aboard!!!

Do you think maybe (since Revelation is highly symbolic) that maybe Mary’s pains could be symbolic of the future of the Church under the Devil’s persecutions?

Consider:
a) Mary is a type of the Church
b) Since the child is an individual (Christ) and the dragon is an individual (satan), then shouldn’t the third person in the scenario be an individual, and not a group?
c) We know that the woman gives birth to many more (to continue along the Mary typifies the Church theme) because it says the dragon will wage war on the rest of her children, those that are “brothers in Christ”, so to speak.
d) Since the Bible begins with a scene involving Adam, Eve, and satan, doesn’t it make sense that the bible ends with a scene involving the 2nd Adam, the New Eve, and satan?

 

[mirandajb]

Joe, good to have you aboard!!!

Do you think maybe (since Revelation is highly symbolic) that maybe Mary’s pains could be symbolic of the future of the Church under the Devil’s persecutions?

Consider:
a) Mary is a type of the Church
b) Since the child is an individual (Christ) and the dragon is an individual (satan), then shouldn’t the third person in the scenario be an individual, and not a group?
c) We know that the woman gives birth to many more (to continue along the Mary typifies the Church theme) because it says the dragon will wage war on the rest of her children, those that are “brothers in Christ”, so to speak.
d) Since the Bible begins with a scene involving Adam, Eve, and satan, doesn’t it make sense that the bible ends with a scene involving the 2nd Adam, the New Eve, and satan?

Joemizzi’s account is spot on too. Many Evangelicals refuse to accept that the woman is Mary. Dr Paul Tan (who is a well known Evangelical eschatologist) wrote in his book “In Power and Glory” that the woman is the Church in the end times. But I would prefer to think that the Church in the End Times is a type of Mary (typology).
Notworthy, all the other points raised from a) through c) is “Noteworthy”. I agree with you in toto with regards to your para d)
Quote: d) Since the Bible begins with a scene involving Adam, Eve, and satan, doesn’t it make sense that the bible ends with a scene involving the 2nd Adam, the New Eve, and satan? Unquote

Amen to that

 

[japhy]

Joe, good to have you aboard!!!

Do you think maybe (since Revelation is highly symbolic) that maybe Mary’s pains could be symbolic of the future of the Church under the Devil’s persecutions?

Consider:
a) Mary is a type of the Church
b) Since the child is an individual (Christ) and the dragon is an individual (satan), then shouldn’t the third person in the scenario be an individual, and not a group?
c) We know that the woman gives birth to many more (to continue along the Mary typifies the Church theme) because it says the dragon will wage war on the rest of her children, those that are “brothers in Christ”, so to speak.
d) Since the Bible begins with a scene involving Adam, Eve, and satan, doesn’t it make sense that the bible ends with a scene involving the 2nd Adam, the New Eve, and satan?

Remember Simeon’s prophecy, too, that a sword would pierce Mary as well.

And kujo, it’s not about elevating Mary above Jesus, EVER. But with all the attenion Christians pay to Jesus and his Father, it seems a lot of them forget about his mother. How can you just ignore her? She doesn’t lead people away from Christ, as if she could do anything apart from God, but always admonishes us to “do whatever he tells you” (see my sig).

 

[Lev23]

The woman first and foremost is Israel. We see in the hebrew scriptures from Abraham taking his son Isaac up the mountian to be sacrificed all the way to John the Baptist, how hard and laborous the work was for Israel to birth the messiah. Prophets were killed, the dispersions, the law, the feasts, etc., etc. And then when messiah came, as prophesied, he was rejected by his own but still paid the price for them, and for all the world. Then like Rev12 says, the male son was snatched up to Gods throne. The male son who will rule all nations with an iron scepter. He will rule all nations on earth in his 1000 year reign, which is prophesied in Rev20.

The end of Jeremiah 31, God tells us that the nation of Israel is as safe as the secrets of how the universe is put together. nd if anyone can tell the God of Israel how he did it, by searching and measuring all he created, he will reject ALL descendants of Israel because all they have done.

Satan has 2 things to do now, decieve all nations that the Messiah of Israel, Jesus, has paid the price for their sins; and turn the world against the nation of Israel, that is to be anti-semitic and anti-zionist, that the nation of Israel has the scripturally right to exist as a nation and a people. Forget about end times prophecy right now, the nation of israel is the only nation in the world that has its land grant given to them in the word of God. And we see today, and proof of Gods prophecies, that todays Israel is hated of all nations, that even jews themselves dont believe in the promises and prophecies of the land.

They are blamed for everything, all their sins are magnified more over than any other peoples. If someone slipped on a banana peel in Israel, our state department would put out a travel warning not to go there. While our nations capitol has a higher homicide rate of Israel.

Prophecy says Jesus is returning to Israel the same place and way he left. Satan knows, no Israel, no Jews, no Jesus coming back to the nation and people and in turn, no lake of fire for him as prophesied in Rev20:7-10.

Satan knows if he can put doubt and come up with alternative ways about and to Jesus, people will not be saved by the blood of Jesus. Satan also knows that if he can put it in the hearts of men to carry out a successful “final solution” of the Jews and Israel, he wins. Revelation 12 show satans attempts at this. Other prophecies tells how all nations will come up against Jerusalem.

But we all know the God of Israel always has a remant, and if we put our trust in him and serve him, we are his.

The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

 

[Lev23]

Correction, Catholics says it’s Mary, Israel, and the New Church.

If you honestly think that the Israel of today is the continuation or even a renewal of David’s kingdom…

The Israel today is not the Israel of any prophecies.

Start with the “dry bones” vision in Ezekial 37 and move on from there please.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Start with the “dry bones” vision in Ezekial 37 and move on from there please.

The Book of Revelation contains both literal and symbolic meanings.

In Symbolic terms the Woman Clothed with the Sun is the Church and Israel. In the literal sense, she Mary because this woman gave birth to a male child who will rule all nations with an iron rod.

This male child as we see in the later verse, was taken up into heaven to God, and to his throne. That passage fits the description of the Ascension of Jesus Christ into heaven, who now sits at the Right Hand of the Father.

Therefore, the woman clothed with the sun is Mary as well as Israel, and Church. You cannot ignore the facts.

Many of the Early Church Fathers also agree with this. From this passage, you get the Queenship of Mary, The Immaculate Conception, and the Assumption of the Virgin Mary.

The woman crowned with twelve stars on her head symbolizes Mary’s Queenship.

In the Revelation 11:19, we see the Ark appearing in heaven. The heaven was opened and the ark of his covenant appeared.

The Ark in the OT is pure gold and the Jews venerated the Ark. The Ark also contain the Word of God the (The Law; Ten Commandments). When Mary accepted God’s will by proclaiming, “Be it Done Unto Me according to your word,” She became a Living Tabernacle, a Living Ark, the Holy of Holies because in her womb, the Word of God is with her, Jesus.

In Revelation 12 we read, “And a great sign appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun.”

Well, we already concluded that the male child is Jesus, and now Mary as the woman clothed with the sun. Then how did John see a vision of a woman in heaven? How did she get there? Well, the woman assumed. She was taken up into heaven.

Ancient Christian traditions testify, that when Mary died, the apostles gathered and went to her tomb. Her tomb was found empty on the third day. "…Orthodox tradition is clear and unwavering in regard to the central point [of the Dormition]: the Holy Virgin underwent, as did her Son, a physical death, but her body – like His – was afterwards raised from the dead and she was taken up into heaven, in her body as well as in her soul. She has passed beyond death and judgement, and lives wholly in the Age to Come. The Resurrection of the Body … has in her case been anticipated and is already an accomplished fact. That does not mean, however, that she is dissociated from the rest of humanity and placed in a wholly different category: for we all hope to share one day in that same glory of the Resurrection of the Body which she enjoys even now.

So in both Catholic Church tradition as well as Orthodox, Mary is believed to be taken up into heaven body and soul. In the Orthodox tradition it is called Dormition.

In essence, the Woman in Revelation 12:1 is Mary. This cannot be denied. Other interpretation is correct but this woman fits Mary more than the others.

 

[Lev23]

In the Revelation 11:19, we see the Ark appearing in heaven. The heaven was opened and the ark of his covenant appeared.

The Ark in the OT is pure gold and the Jews venerated the Ark. The Ark also contain the Word of God the (The Law; Ten Commandments). When Mary accepted God’s will by proclaiming, “Be it Done Unto Me according to your word,” She became a Living Tabernacle, a Living Ark, the Holy of Holies because in her womb, the Word of God is with her, Jesus.

.

What you are saying is sort of confusing. Those things, the “copies” of heaven, that is the ark, the tabernacle, were just that, they were copies of the real ones in heaven. They were already in heaven before the copies were created, before Mary was born. Hebrews 9 tells of Jesus, with his own perfect blood, entering in the tabernacle in the Holy of Holies in heaven not made by human hands. So are you saying Jesus in heaven went into a heavenly womb?

Like Jesus, we are all come from our mothers womb. In Luke 11:27, someone shouts to Jesus saying the mother who gave birth to him and nursed him is blessed. Jesus did not downplay this fact, but he added “Rather blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” Face it, once we are born from a womb, there is only one way we can go for eternal life with God. There is no crawling back in there and we know what rejecting God can lead us.

So help me out here, explain why Mary is the Tabernacle, the Holy of Holies, the Ark of the Covenant.

 

[Mannyfit75]

What you are saying is sort of confusing. Those things, the “copies” of heaven, that is the ark, the tabernacle, were just that, they were copies of the real ones in heaven. They were already in heaven before the copies were created, before Mary was born. Hebrews 9 tells of Jesus, with his own perfect blood, entering in the tabernacle in the Holy of Holies in heaven not made by human hands. So are you saying Jesus in heaven went into a heavenly womb?

Like Jesus, we are all come from our mothers womb. In Luke 11:27, someone shouts to Jesus saying the mother who gave birth to him and nursed him is blessed. Jesus did not downplay this fact, but he added “Rather blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it.” Face it, once we are born from a womb, there is only one way we can go for eternal life with God. There is no crawling back in there and we know what rejecting God can lead us.

So help me out here, explain why Mary is the Tabernacle, the Holy of Holies, the Ark of the Covenant.

Please understand what I write down is also symbolic. Mary is the type of Ark because she become the Mother of God, Jesus. When she said “be it done unto me according to your womb.” When Jesus was conceived in her womb, she become a tabernacle, a kind of Holy of Holies.

Tabernacle is called the Dwelling place of God. Who dwell in Mary’s womb for 9 months? Jesus. She at point in time is a living temple or tabernacle. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant, who is Jesus Christ because Jesus said at the Last Supper, “This is the cup of My Blood, the Blood of the New Everlasting Covenant.”

I hope this helps.