Who is the Messiah for the Jews?

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

I am directing this question towards the Jewish posters on this forum.

Who is the Messiah supposed to be? How will you know the Messiah when he comes?

 

[Kaninchen]

Hello,

I am directing this question towards the Jewish posters on this forum.

Who is the Messiah supposed to be? How will you know the Messiah when he comes?

I’ve only been around just over a year but this has been addressed several times in that period - using the words ‘Jews’ and ‘Messiah’ in the search function would, I’m sure, provide considerable information.

These are links I usually provide:

Some Messiah links:

jewfaq.org/moshiach.htm

jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/messiah.html

jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/general-messiah-concept.html

How will we know Messiah? Messiah will fulfill the prophesies of Messiah - and not just by text manipulation!

 

[Lev23]

How will we know Messiah? Messiah will fulfill the prophesies of Messiah - and not just by text manipulation!

Interesting. That first link you gave explains in the section-“What about Jesus?”. It explains, starting at Bar Kokhba, and then the others named, how while they were living, they were thought to have been fulfilling messianic prophecies of THE Messiah. For instance, Judaism came to conclusion that Bar Kokhba was NOT the Messiah until after he died.

So I guess according to the ways the rabbis interpret how Messiah will first come, all one(who wants to be Messiah) has to do is take their interpretation a little farther than the last false Messiah. Probably with the thinking of one of these false Messiahs one will finish the prophecies we interpret of him.

What a dangerous, careless way to go about it.

 

[Valke2]

Interesting. That first link you gave explains in the section-“What about Jesus?”. It explains, starting at Bar Kokhba, and then the others named, how while they were living, they were thought to have been fulfilling messianic prophecies of THE Messiah. For instance, Judaism came to conclusion that Bar Kokhba was NOT the Messiah until after he died.

So I guess according to the ways the rabbis interpret how Messiah will first come, all one has to do is take their interpretation a little farther than the last false Messiah. Probably with the thinking of one of these false Messiahs one will finish the prophecies we interpret of him.

What a dangerous, careless way to go about it.

Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. Anyway, it has been made apparent through our history the danger false messiah’s present to the Jewish community. As with anything, the greater the desperation, the greater the risk one is willing to take. Jesus wasn’t the first failed messiah and he probably won’t be the last.

 

[Lev23]

Now what is interesting how in those links, Judaism in one way or another uses the “wait it out and see” method of seeing if one who seems or claims to be Messiah is true.

Not only by the links provided above by Kaninchen, but the Acts in the New Testament shows this method by the religious leaders.

Acts 5:27-42
Having brought the apostles, they made them appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest. “We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name,” he said. “Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man’s blood.”

Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than men! The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead—whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree. God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.

When they heard this, they were furious and wanted to put them to death. But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while. Then he addressed them: "Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. **Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.

His speech persuaded them.** They called the apostles in and had them flogged. Then they ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.

The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name. Day after day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Christ.

 

[Lev23]

Jesus wasn’t the first failed messiah and he probably won’t be the last.

Valke said Jesus failed. We can see Jesus has been a light to the gentile nations and the Glory of Israel to the remnant of Israel, receiving the Good News from his Jewish Apostles. Many have believed in him for generations. This Name the Apostles were ordered to stop preaching in never died. It did not come from men, but from God, the God of Israel.

Men, woman, and children have died throughout these generations rather than renounce Jesus as Messiah.

 

[Lev23]

Acts 40-41
The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name. Day after day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Christ.

---

How has “The Name” they preached eventually to all nations pan out? Seems it is still going strong today.

Was this prophesied?

Malachi 1:10-11
“Oh, that one of you would shut the temple doors, so that you would not light useless fires on my altar! I am not pleased with you,” says the LORD Almighty, "and I will accept no offering from your hands. My name will be great among the nations, from the rising to the setting of the sun. In every place incense and pure offerings will be brought to my name, because my name will be great among the nations," says the LORD Almighty.

What Hebrew name, what Israeli has become a hope for the nations?

Yeshua

 

[Cathdefender]

Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. Anyway, it has been made apparent through our history the danger false messiah’s present to the Jewish community. As with anything, the greater the desperation, the greater the risk one is willing to take. Jesus wasn’t the first failed messiah and he probably won’t be the last.

Jesus is the only Messiah. How can one doubt this?? He has been foretold so many times in the OT. What an offense to him just from this line. There have been no other Messiahs after Jesus people…because Jesus Christ IS the Messiah…

 

[Valke2]

Jesus is the only Messiah. How can one doubt this?? He has been foretold so many times in the OT. What an offense to him just from this line. There have been no other Messiahs after Jesus people…because Jesus Christ IS the Messiah…

This thread was directed at Jews and their understanding of teh Messiah. Don’t get bent out of shape because a Jew calls Jesus a “failed messiah” I though it was a more accurate term then “false messiah”.

I understand you believe there are references to him in the Torah. This is just another instance of how Jews and Christians can read the same thing and arrive at different conclusions.

 

[Cathdefender]

This thread was directed at Jews and their understanding of teh Messiah. Don’t get bent out of shape because a Jew calls Jesus a “failed messiah” I though it was a more accurate term then “false messiah”.

I understand you believe there are references to him in the Torah. This is just another instance of how Jews and Christians can read the same thing and arrive at different conclusions.

Eh, excuse me, but to tell me don’t get bent out of shape for you saying that Jesus, the Son of Man, the Messiah, the King of Kings, etc…was a “failed” or a “false” Messiah??? HE IS DIVINE. You act as if he was just another Joeshmo next door. It is an insult to me and we are on a Catholic forum, therefore please do not call Jesus anymore names as you and the likes of you already have more than once.
There can be discussions here without name labeling and such.
I am a defender of Christ so it touches me in a different way than you and others.

 

[ralphinal]

Would it be fair to say that there are Jews today who are actively, if that is a good word for it, waiting and looking for the Messiah, and that there are some who are more or less riding it out and that there are some who are oblivious to the whole thing and are just living life?

I knew an orthodox Jewish family years ago, and every time she was pregnant, they were sure it was with the Messiah. So far, none of the kids have proven to be, but they are still young.

 

[Cathdefender]

Would it be fair to say that there are Jews today who are actively, if that is a good word for it, waiting and looking for the Messiah, and that there are some who are more or less riding it out and that there are some who are oblivious to the whole thing and are just living life?

I knew an orthodox Jewish family years ago, and every time she was pregnant, they were sure it was with the Messiah. So far, none of the kids have proven to be, but they are still young.

Sounds like a sci-fi movie to me.

 

[ralphinal]

Sounds like a sci-fi movie to me.

I am not ready to say that. In fact, it would be a logical conclusion if you felt that the Messiah was ot come in your life-time.

There are Christians who think that the end is any day now.

There are Christians who think that the end is coming( Maybe soon maybe not), and they will live accordingly and ride it out.

There are Christians who could care less.

I was wondering if Jews are the same way about the Messiah and if it was more along sects.

 

[Valke2]

Eh, excuse me, but to tell me don’t get bent out of shape for you saying that Jesus, the Son of Man, the Messiah, the King of Kings, etc…was a “failed” or a “false” Messiah??? HE IS DIVINE. You act as if he was just another Joeshmo next door. It is an insult to me and we are on a Catholic forum, therefore please do not call Jesus anymore names as you and the likes of you already have more than once.
There can be discussions here without name labeling and such.
I am a defender of Christ so it touches me in a different way than you and others.

You are on a Catholic Forum on a thread entitled “Who is the Messiah for the Jews?” To play the righteous indignation card because in response to this question, Judaism basically says “Jesus isn’t it”, only strengthens my belief that questions like these are merely asked to give you the opportunity to tell me how wrong I am. The fact is, that Jesuks is just another Joeshmo according to Judaism.

I would not get offended if you or someone else stated that Jesus is God, when I know that this is not the case. I would expect you not to be offended when someone says Jesus is not God, when you know that is not the case.

 

[Valke2]

Would it be fair to say that there are Jews today who are actively, if that is a good word for it, waiting and looking for the Messiah, and that there are some who are more or less riding it out and that there are some who are oblivious to the whole thing and are just living life?

I knew an orthodox Jewish family years ago, and every time she was pregnant, they were sure it was with the Messiah. So far, none of the kids have proven to be, but they are still young.

That would be a fair statement. Normative Judiasm “requires” belief that the Messiah will come. As for the Jewish family you knew, they may say they are sure their child is the Messiah (but they’re really hoping he’s a doctor).

 

[Ed_Rand]

Not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. Anyway, it has been made apparent through our history the danger false messiah’s present to the Jewish community. As with anything, the greater the desperation, the greater the risk one is willing to take. Jesus wasn’t the first failed messiah and he probably won’t be the last.

He’s been a pretty successful failed messiah. What is your messiah supposed to do that Jesus hasn’t? Rebuild the state of Israel and bring it to its former glory? Rebuild the temple? What are the signs of your messiah?

 

[Kaninchen]

He’s been a pretty successful failed messiah.

Rather depends on what criteria mark more or less successful failed messiahs.

What is your messiah supposed to do that Jesus hasn’t? Rebuild the state of Israel and bring it to its former glory? Rebuild the temple? What are the signs of your messiah?

You know what the ‘signs’ are - if not, google can be your friend, surely.

 

[HashemEchad]

This thread was directed at Jews and their understanding of teh Messiah. Don’t get bent out of shape because a Jew calls Jesus a “failed messiah” I though it was a more accurate term then “false messiah”.

I understand you believe there are references to him in the Torah. This is just another instance of how Jews and Christians can read the same thing and arrive at different conclusions.

You know what galls me about a lot of Christians?

They ask what at first seems to be an innocuous question: “Who do Jews think the Messiah will be?” and then when we answer, they lay in with the Jesus stuff, and when we present evidence as to WHY we do not regard Jesus as a true Messiah, they get all hot and bothered, feeling we are attacking their religion!

If you TRULY DO NOT want to know why we reject Jesus, don’t ask! Because then you open your religion up to scrutiny that you might not be prepared (emotionally or apologetically) to handle.

And if the reason you’re asking is to lay groundwork so you can then have a foundation to hit us with the missionary stuff about Jesus, don’t even waste your time.

 

[HashemEchad]

Valke said Jesus failed. We can see Jesus has been a light to the gentile nations and the Glory of Israel to the remnant of Israel, receiving the Good News from his Jewish Apostles. Many have believed in him for generations. This Name the Apostles were ordered to stop preaching in never died. It did not come from men, but from God, the God of Israel.

Men, woman, and children have died throughout these generations rather than renounce Jesus as Messiah.

Rabbi Akiva (a convert to Judaism in ancient times) died a martyr at the hands of the Romans, wrapped in the scrolls of the Torah and burned alive…because he refused to stop teaching Torah to Jewish children.

And many of my Spanish ancestors died rather than renounce the Torah and the One True God, when they were being made to convert to Christianity against their will.

And many Buddhists have died in Tibet rather than give up their religion for Chinese Communism.

I could go on with many other examples of people of all faiths who have died rather than renounce their beliefs.

Christianity does not, and never has had a monopoly on religious martyrdom.

 

[inJESUS]

Christianity does not, and never has had a monopoly on religious martyrdom.

of course . Whoever dies for something must believe in it 100% to die for it. The apostles who died for Jesus did not only die because they really thought He is the Messiah, but because they believed without a doubt that He died, and was resurrected.

Here, if a were a non-religious seeking either Judaism or Christianity, i’ll have to deal with some Jews’ interpretation of the Torah, and other Jews’ interpretation of the Torah in light of the man who said to be Messiah, died and resurrected to prove who He is. Will both parties die for their belief? surely, and death for the belief in Jesus’ death and resurrection after claming to be the Messiah is a proof that what this man was saying is the truth, in comparison to other’s interpretations because here we are not dealing with words and concepts anymore, but about a man who was crucified and resurrected to prove who He is and what He taught.