J
jakasaki
Guest
I found this for your review ~
Answer to this specific inquiry:
There more to this inquiry. Link enclosed for your reading pleasure…
islamhelpline.com/node/7597
- Status
islamhelpline.com/node/7597
J
jakasaki
Guest
I also found this for you - it’s worth looking into this verse…
English (Yusuf Ali): (Recite)
2:138 (Our religion is) the Baptism of Allah. And who can baptize better than Allah. And it is He Whom we worship.
islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/2/2_138.htm
D
dronald
Guest
Although the ritual of the supposed ‘baptism’ of Prophet Jesus (a.s.) by Prophet John (Yayha a.s.)) does indeed find mention in several places in the present-day Bible, the Quran and the Sunnah are absolutely silent regarding this particular issue…thus we as believers in the Quran and the Sunnah can neither deny nor confirm with absolute conviction whether or not this specific ritual of the ‘baptism’ of Prophet Jesus (a.s.) at the hands of Prophet Yahya (r.a.) on the Jordan River did take place or not. And Allah Alone Knows Best.*
My issue here is that he also claimed, “we don’t know because it’s not in the Quran.” However, we do have historical, secular, non-biblical evidence of John who was a Baptist.
With this in mind, how do Muslims reconcile this? And if it can be reconciled and isn’t just another ambiguity, it would be nice if my specific questions could be answered.
As for your second reply, it still doesn’t speak specifically of John, whether he Baptized, why he Baptized and if Jesus in turn Baptized.
If the passage you quoted is contradicting John’s Baptism, then it goes against history.
J
jakasaki
Guest
Here is another Islamic site talking about “The baptism of Allah”
I only read a tiny bit of the source…
salahallah.com/english/40-baptism-allah
D
dronald
Guest
This article hurt my brain for a while until I recognized that it must have been written by a Christian using Arabic (Islamic) terminology:
“This was not to be with Isa, His own Father had to allow the death of His Beloved. From the beginning they had been together, now He has to see Him perish. What profound love for humanity. Will you receive Isa who was sent down to us? So we see that Allah suffered immensely with His Son. We may truly say that Allah was baptized with suffering”
The entire website is done quite cleverly and I don’t know what to make of it.
J
jakasaki
Guest
D
dronald
Guest
I went through the articles and it’s essentially a Christian who knows his Qur’an which he uses to give evidence for the Bible.Yeah - like I said - I only read bits of it…
He was quoting the acts and calling it, “injeel acts” and “injeel mark” he was using all the Arabic names and quoting the Qur’an.
It’s a strange approach because he acts as if the Qur’an is a book sent by God but I think he’s only doing this to relate to Muslims while leading them to Christianity. As I said, I don’t know what to make of it; it seems a bit dishonest but it’s hard to make a judgement call on his intentions.
I
Islam_1995
Guest
One must understand , as religious believers , the bible and Quran will always clash on certain things we both can’t agree on. In saying this, both of us are not displaying hardcore evidence to suggest that what we believe in is 100% totally true. From a christians perspective it’s clear from your point of view is that you you will find many dubious things about the Quran and it’s historical accuracy and the same vice versa amongst us muslims. After all this is a thread purposely set up about our last prophet and not about John the Baptist which is irrelevant.
D
dronald
Guest
I’m not speaking of Biblical history, I’m speaking of secular, non-Christian 100% reliable historians from the first century. I’m wondering how Muhammed reconciles actual history with his claims.
I
Islam_1995
Guest
He hasn’t being reconciling , he was given the revelation which was the Quran and he then spoke the words of the holy book that were given to him and remember it’s the prophets viewpoint in which he sees things you may disagree with. Gtg sleep talk Tom
D
dronald
Guest
So how then do we reconcile the Quran’s ambiguity and historical facts?
M
MartinJordan
Guest
We disagree with it because Mohammed clearly didn’t follow up on history and the suffering of the people in bringing God’s Word to the World.
MJ
E
Emerite
Guest
In my Jeff Cavins Bible Study class at our Catholic Church, someone suggested that the Islam faith didn’t revere Mary, the Blessed Mother. I thought perhaps otherwise, so decided to research this, and questioned an older, nice Moslem couple, of the Islam faith, I met while shopping at a local vegetable stand. I told the gentleman that I was a practicing Roman Catholic in a Bible studies class and had a question for him. The gentleman, originally from Bagdad, Iraq, told me the Islam faith greatly reveres Mary – that she was always saintly and was the virgin mother of Jesus Christ. Every time he mentioned Mary or any other holy person, he said a short phrase out of respect. The Angel Gabriel is also significant in the Islam faith. He also said that they hold Jesus Christ in high esteem, saying not only that Jesus was a prophet, he was like an apostle. When questioned about the Koran’s idea of the end of the world, however, he said that Jesus and Mohammed will come back to earth together, Jesus would be slain and then God would come and there would be world peace. Quite different from what my Catholic Church teaches and Catholic Bible states, but interesting to hear about their beliefs! We did agree that there is basically one God, worshiped by all faiths. Hope I was correct in saying this. Why, then, are there so many terrible wars over our similar, yet often differing beliefs?
M
MartinJordan
Guest
This is true. They don’t revere her…in the way we revere her to be exact. Islam deny she is the Blessed Mother (of God).
So it is more like a nice sentiment. Muslims may revere her in the way they’ve been led to believe, rather than believing in the Blessedness of Mother Mary, who is the New Eve.
As I said a very nice sentiment but not fully in the Truth. Islam’s belief in the virgin Mary, leaves out the details about the Holy Spirit (the third Person of God) and thus the power of the Most High overshadowed her but also after Mary gave her concurrence.
This is also important…Islam doesn’t believe in free will. Islam states “God decrees and it happens (sic)”, but it was Mary who was given the choice to accept the words of passed to her by Gabriel by saying "May your word to me be fulfilled.”.
As you can see it doesn’t make sense for Jesus and Mohammed to come together when the latter didn’t follow the actual facts that lead to Jesus coming into the world as Man in the first place!
MJ
D
daler
Guest
Emerite,
. These wars amongst men go back to Cain and Abel. Whatever it is that exists in our genes that causes fight or flight seems to be triggered to the extreme in reaction to religion. That just says something about us, as humans, that we have this potential within us.
. It would seem to me that the best approach would be to somehow set our emotions aside when discussing religion and without judgement simply try to discover what is what and not to be offended. For the most part people inherit their beliefs and essentially repeat what they have been hearing since childhood. Of course there are exceptions, but it is surprising that people don’t tend to stop and think: “What if I had been born in Arabia and raised by Muslims? Then surely I would be espousing Islam.”
. Had any of us here been born in India, most likely we would “believe” in Krsna, just as much as we “believe” in Christ for having been born in the west.
. It surely is a shame though, all the violence over God, by whatever name we call upon Him, for it is surely the same and only God who has created all mankind.
. Allah, Great Spirit, Jehovah, Gott …
.
I
Islam_1995
Guest
Muhammad didn’t follow up history and facts , well in the story of the resurrection of jesus and crucifixion. Their isn’t after all even the slightest evidence that jesus even resurrected there is many doubts about the accounts. And I don’t even think from a muslims perspective that he was 100% crucified , it’s about evidence not about because Muhammad disagreed with a lot of things in christianity , therefore making him a false prophet.
M
MartinJordan
Guest
My friend. Jesus’ Apostles died for the Faith. They wouldn’t have tolerated persecution and death if they did not know whether Jesus was Resurrected.
Amen.
MJ
I
Islam_1995
Guest
I don’t know what to say everyone has their opinions and we all should respect it
M
MartinJordan
Guest
Is this view in the Quran? Just asking… I don’t know. 
MJ
MJ
D
dronald
Guest
Actually, the Muslim historian Reza Aslan recently said, “the one thing we can be sure about Jesus is his crucifixion.”
Take a look at this wiki article which are usually very anti-Christian:
*Although there is disagreement about issues such as the calling of disciples, the agreement on crucifixion is very widespread, and most scholars in the third quest for the historical Jesus consider the crucifixion indisputable.[23][59][60][61] Eddy and Boyd state that it is now “firmly established” that there is non-Christian confirmation of the crucifixion of Jesus.[24]Bart Ehrman states that the crucifixion of Jesus on the orders of Pontius Pilate is the most certain element about him.[60]John Dominic Crossan states that the crucifixion of Jesus is as certain as any historical fact can be.[23]John P. Meier views the crucifixion of Jesus as historical fact and states that based on the criterion of embarrassment Christians would not have invented the painful death of their leader.[61] Meier states that a number of other criteria, e.g. the criterion of multiple attestation (i.e. confirmation by more than one source), the criterion of coherence (i.e. that it fits with other historical elements) and the criterion of rejection (i.e. that it is not disputed by ancient sources) help establish the crucifixion of Jesus as a historical event.[62]
Although scholars agree on the historicity of the crucifixion, they differ on the reason and context for it, e.g. both E. P. Sanders and Paula Fredriksen support the historicity of the crucifixion, but contend that Jesus did not foretell his own crucifixion, and that his prediction of the crucifixion is a Christian story.[63]Geza Vermes also views the crucifixion as a historical event but provides his own explanation and background for it.*
Also, check out these secular quotes by historians and major figures from the first century:
Tacitus states" Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome"
Here’s Josephus’s account from the 1st century: “About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he . . . wrought surprising feats. . . . He was the Christ. When Pilate . . .condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared . . . restored to life. . . . And the tribe of Christians . . . has . . . not disappeared.”
Check this out from Mara Bar-Serapion written around 73ad:
What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king? It was just after that their kingdom was abolished.
Scholars accept that this is from another non-Christian source affirming Christ’s death.
- Status