Who is 'the Rock'?

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PhilVaz:
It is my understanding that Bevenot who you have referred to has confirmed Chapman’s original thesis that both “versions” of Cyprian’s Unity were authored by Cyprian, but Cyprian “played down” the “primacy” quotes when he later disputed with the Pope. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I understand both “versions” of Unity were authored by Cyprian.
It’s correct that Cyprian realised that people could read into his text something he didn’t intend. Therefore he changed it.
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PhilVaz:
See also Cyprian, Letter 33 (27), 1 to the Lapsed, c. AD 250 on “chair of Peter” referring to all the bishops.
Which letter?

Epistle XXXIII

ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-58.htm#P5301_1616915

Epistle XXVII

ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-52.htm#P5195_1580876

Don’t mention Peter. I can’t find Peter mentioned in Letter 43(40) either, nor 59(55). Please help.
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RyanL:
Not to intrude, but…

Please stop misrepresenting the Fathers of the Church.
Cyprian on the Papacy:

Quote:
“Cyprian to [Pope] Cornelius, his brother. Greeting. . . . We decided to send and are sending a letter to you from all throughout the province [where I am] so that all our colleagues might give their decided approval and support to you and to your communion, that is, to both the unity and the charity of the Catholic Church” (Letters 48:1, 3 [A.D. 253]).
ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-73.htm#P5521_1683141. Note here he doesn’t mention Peter at all; only Paul. Did you have a point other than to accuse me of misrepresenting Cyprian? What here in your quote screams support for the Papacy (other than your own inclusion of the word ‘pope’).
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RyanL:
(ibid., 55[52]:8).
Evidence you’ve not read the posts because I’ve already addressed this.

RyanL said:
“With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome]
, in which sacerdotal unity has its source” (ibid., 59:14).

ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-84.htm#P5890_1848657

You sure you’ve the right letter? I am trying to track down your citations and I might be looking at the wrong letter. Your help in finding these will be much appreciated (unless you simply continue to direct me back to your quote-mines).
 
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Montalban:
IF you believe the bishop of Rome had the power to exercise this power, then why was his excommunication not enforced? That’s the problem you’ve ignored.
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Ghosty:
Nobody is ignoring it, it never occured. The Pope showed a desire to excommunicate, he was counsled against it, and he never made an infallible decree on the matter. That is exactly what we do in the Catholic Church. Again, you seem to think that we are simply waiting around to jump at the slightest whim of the Pope, which not what the Catholic Church has ever argued. If the Pope expressed an interest in excommunicating someone, I myself, as a layman, would be within my rights and place to personally counsel the Pope against it, even harshly if necessary. You’re arguing a “Catholic stance” that does not, and never has, existed. It’s a straw man. Whelton’s book is simply wrong about the way the Catholic Church views the powers of the Pope, at least insofar as I’ve seen it presented by you here. He’s attacking a Church that, to put it bluntly, doesn’t exist.
You are re-working the facts on so many fronts that I’m staggered.
He didn’t ‘show a desire to excommunicate’, he attempted to do so.
:Thereupon Victor, head of the Roman church, attempted at one stroke to cut off from the common unity all the Asian dioceses, together with the neighboring churches, on the ground of heterodoxy, and pilloried them in letters in which he announced the total excommunication of all his fellow-Christians there. But this was not to the taste of all the bishops: they replied with a reques that he would turn his mind to the things that make for eace and for unity and love towards his neighbors. We still possess the words of these men, who very sternly rebuked Victor. Among them wwas Irenaeus, who wrote on behalf of the Christians for whom he was responsible in Gaul. While supporting the view that only on the Lord’s Day might the mystery of the Lord’s resurrection be celebrated, he gave Victor a great deal of excellent advice, in particular that he should not cut off entire churches of God because they observed the unbroken tradition of their predecessors.

It’s application was ignored, and he was himself the subject of verbal censure for doing so. "
quoted in lesser part in Whelton, pp46-47.
Now did the churches in Asia merely take this to be a bit of ‘advice’? No, they sternly rebuked Victor. And Victor was rebuked for attempting to act unilaterally, when he had no power to do so.
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Ghosty:
How about you post the source of Whelton’s claims that the Catholic Church regards the Pope in the way he describes, rather than just assuming it. As of now it’s sounding more and more like a straw-man.
Great, your opinion based on your own re-working of argument!!!
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Montalban:
I’m truly amazed that you completely ignore the fact that they didn’t ‘obey’ the bishop of Rome!!!
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Ghosty:
Show us where it was an infallible decree, and you’ve got a case. Otherwise, you’re blustering.
See above. You obbiously believe that the Pope now, has no power!!! You’ve a novel take on Petrine supremecy.
 
Here is a more extensive quote, you will see that Victor was rebuked by his fellow bishops for trying to exert his authority.
10 But this did not please all the bishops. And they besought him to consider the things of peace, and of neighborly unity and love. Words of theirs are extant, sharply rebuking Victor.

11 Among them was Irenaeus, who, sending letters in the name of the brethren in Gaul over whom he presided, maintained that the mystery of the resurrection of the Lord should be observed only on the Lord’s day. He fittingly admonishes Victor that he should not cut off whole churches of God which observed the tradition of an ancient custom and after many other words he proceeds as follows:363

12 "For the controversy is not only concerning the day, but also concerning the very manner of the fast. For some think that they should fast one day, others two, yet others more; some, moreover, count their day as consisting of forty hours day and night.364

13 And this variety in its observance has not originated in our time; but long before in that of our ancestors.365 It is likely that they did not hold to strict accuracy, and thus formed a custom for their posterity according to their own simplicity and peculiar mode. Yet all of these lived none the less in peace, and we also live in peace with one another; and the disagreement in regard to the fast confirms the agreement in the faith."

14 He adds to this the following account, which I may properly insert:

"Among these were the presbyters before Soter, who presided over the church which thou now rulest. We mean Anicetus, and Plus, and Hyginus, and Telesphorus, and Xystus. They neither observed it366 themselves, nor did they permit those after them to do so. And yet though not observing it, they were none the less at peace with those who came to them from the parishes in which it was observed; although this observance was more opposed to those who did not observe it.367

15 But none were ever cast out on account of this form; but the presbyters before thee who did not observe it, sent the eucharist to those of other parishes who observed it.368

16 And when the blessed Polycarp was at Rome369 in the time of Anicetus, and they disagreed a little about certain other things, they immediately made peace with one another, not caring to quarrel over this matter. For neither could Anicetus persuade Polycarp not to observe what he had always observed with John the disciple of our Lord, and the other apostles with whom he had associated; neither could Polycarp persuade Anicetus to observe it as he said that he ought to follow the customs of the presbyters that had preceded him.
ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-01/Npnf2-01-10.htm#P2729_1313445
This last part shows that the Bishop of Rome’s powers extended only to Rome. The novel development of power which Catholics later gave, where-by bishops could be removed by the Pope (as a sort of ‘captain-bishop’) was not known to the early church.
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Montalban:
Well, here’s the bishopric of Constantinople signled out and noted that he should enjoy the exact same rights and powers as the ‘successor of Peter’ (as you guys claim the Bishop of Rome is)
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Ghosty:
Nope, it says that it enjoys all of the imperial rank of Old Rome (the Papacy is not, and never has been, considered part of the imperial honor of Rome), and says that in ecclesiastical (Church) matters Constantiople should be ranked “next after her (Rome)”. Not the same, but ranked after Rome. Thanks again for proving our argument for us!
If this is not about the Papacy then what riht has ‘Rome’ over church affairs? I know you wish to invent another novel take - this time some kind of spiritual ranking of the city, as opposed to the bishopric, which is what they’re referring to. And note that ‘next after Rome’ is in place of honour!
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Montalban:
I stated a position, giving sources from Whelton, and from the web.
 
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Ghosty:
That’s the problem: Whelton’s position is against a straw man. You’ve repeatedly ignored the fact that the Catholic Church doesn’t make the claims about the Papacy that Whelton seems to be claiming we do. Our quote’s are “refuting your argument” because your argument is baseless. We’re talking past eachother.
Another re-emphasis. I am stating that I am giving more full citations for my quotes. You are certainly talking past this, by ignoring it, to go on about some ‘straw-man’ you believe, based on your own poor ideas about your own church.
“By Divine law the pope has such ordinary jurisdiction for the entire Church and a bishop for his diocese”
newadvent.org/cathen/08567a.htm
The Pope has supreme authority in Catholic eyes to appoint bishops in any part of the Catholic Church. Meddling in bishoprics is something Victor tried to do, and was rebuked. The fact that you poorly cite your sources is what I commented about here. But because you ignore that I must, sadly, educate you about your own Papacy!
See also newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm deals with the supremecy of the Bishop of Rome over all other areas of the Church. This is, as I note a novel Catholic belief, not held, nor ever held in the east.
The test of Papal Supremcy was put a number of times, such as by Victor. He failed, because the other bishoprics were independent of him. Catholics maintain that the Bishop of Rome was always such a head of the church. It goes on to say
“If then Christ, as we have seen, established His Church as a society subordinated to a single supreme head, it follows from the very nature of the case that this office is perpetual, and cannot have been a mere transitory feature of ecclesiastical life”
Ibid.
Now, when I present the case of Victor trying to impose his will as supreme bishop on other bishops, and failing, you chime in that you guys never operate that way!!! spin
The whole reason you guys attempted to quote mine about Petrine supremecy was to show this!!!
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Montalban:
You continually re-stating your opinion of this is rather boring. You continuing to ignore both the example from Acts 15, and the commentaries on that example is likewise boring.
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Ghosty:
I’m not ignoring Acts 15 at all, in fact I cited it as a perfect example of the Catholic approach to the Papacy. Who are you arguing with, exactly?
As I said, your spin on this is amazing. The Ecumenical Councils, following your schism from the church have all been called by the Pope; exercising his ‘authority’ as the head of the Catholic Church. You guys maintain that the Pope’s always had this authority. When I cite an example where the council’s not headed by Peter, but another Bishop, you say it’s a perfect example of Catholic councils!!! What, with James making the final declaratory ruling?!?!
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Montalban:
Although this Catholic site does believe that the Antiochian note was an addition, it still was celebrated there, because Rome and Antioch are both places of Peter. And although they both were, Peter was not bishop in either.
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Ghosty:
Read the article more carefully. It shows that there were two celebrations given to Peter in Rome; it was a later addition to the text that one of the celebrations was for Antioch. Once again, you are doing the heavy work for us in proving that these honors given to Antioch were later and unfounded.
I already noted that it was a later addition.

continued…
Before continuing you need to decide which Papacy you’re supporting.
"The four chapters of that Constitution deal respectively with the office of Supreme Head conferred on St. Peter, the perpetuity of this office in the person of the Roman pontiff, the pope’s jurisdiction over the faithful, and his supreme authority to define in all questions of faith and morals.
newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm
This is directly opposed by the original model…
St. Cyprian said in the opening address of the Council of Cathage…“In the administration of the Church each bishop has the free discretion of his own will, having to account only to the Lord for his actions. None of us may set himself up as bishop of bishops, nor compel his brothers to obey him; every bishop of the Church has full liberty and complete power; as he cannot be judged by another, neither can he judge another.”

Whelton, p34
 
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Ghosty:
It appears to be a typo. It’s from 54:14.
Thanks. See this footnote…
[The Apostolic See of the West was necessarily all this in the eyes of an unambitious faithful Western co-bishop; but the letter itself proves that it was not the See of one who had any authority over or apart from his co-bishops. Let us not read into his expressions ideas which are an after-thought, and which conflict with the life and all the testimony of Cyprian.]

ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-79.htm#P5695_1758177

go the Eels!

www.parraeels.com.au
 
The Catholic Church believes that the position of the Pope is supreme - he is the bishop of bishops, in that all other bishops answer to him as Christ’s vicar. Certainly he acts for ‘accord’ with the use of Council, but he is akin to a prince, rather than the president of a democracy.

To this ends, the examples from history shows that the early church did not view the Bishop of Rome as such. Acts 15 shows a council presided over by James.

The issue with Pope St. Victor shows Victor being only an authority over the church in Rome (and its surrounds). This is because the notion in the early church was that each and every church headed by a bishop is equal… and ‘catholic’ (noted and quoted earlier).

Church councils gave the See of the New Rome the same rights that the Old Rome held. The Council of Chalcedon said…“FOLLOWING in all things the decisions of the holy Fathers, and acknowledging the canon, which has been just read, of the One Hundred and Fifty Bishops beloved-of-God (who assembled in the imperial city of Constantinople, which is New Rome, in the time of the Emperor Theodosius of happy memory), we also do enact and decree the same things concerning the privileges of the most holy Church of Constantinople, which is New Rome. For the Fathers rightly granted privileges to the throne of old Rome, because it was the royal city. And the One Hundred and Fifty most religious Bishops, actuated by the same consideration, gave equal privileges (isa presbeia) to the most holy throne of New Rome, justly judging that the city which is honoured with the Sovereignty and the Senate, and enjoys equal privileges with the old imperial Rome, should in ecclesiastical matters also be magnified as she is, and rank next after her; so that, in the Pontic, the Asian, and the Thracian dioceses, the metropolitans only and such bishops also of the Dioceses aforesaid as are among the barbarians, should be ordained by the aforesaid most holy throne of the most holy Church of Constantinople; every metropolitan of the aforesaid dioceses, together with the bishops of his province, ordaining his own provincial bishops, as has been declared by the divine canons; but that, as has been above said, the metropolitans of the aforesaid Dioceses should be ordained by the archbishop of Constantinople, after the proper elections have been held according to custom and have been reported to him.” [1]

The second Ecumenical Council had earlier also stated that the same rights of the See of Old Rome to that of the New Rome. And that “…although it conceded that Rome was the first see of Christendom, it implied that Roman primacy depended on the city’s secular standing”.[2]

The Jesuit historian Leo Davis says “Though the canon was not directed against Rome, no notice was taken of the claim of its bishop to primacy among bishops based on his succession from Peter…” [3]

John, Patriarch of Constantinople, added the following sentence: “I hold the most holy Church of the old and the new Rome to be one. I define the see of the Apostle Peter and this of the imperial city to be the one see.” In doing this, he was recalling the fact that canon 28 of the Council of Constantinople declared that the Sees of Roman and Constantinople were equal."[4]

So, not only were other individuals declared by the church to be the ‘eqaul of the Apostles’, but other churches were declared to be the ‘equal of Rome’. There is nothing about Petrine supremecy associated with Rome, other than the just-so, that it is, because it is, because it is.

Notes.​

[1] ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-14/Npnf2-14-105.htm#P5349_1101598
[2] Chadwick, H, “The Early Church”, quoted in Whelton, pp51-52.
[3] Davis, L. D., (1983), “The First Ecumenical Councils (325-787): Their History and Theology”, (Michael Glazier Books; Collegeville, Minnesota), p128.

[4] Whelton, pp81-82.
 
You presume to educate me in Church Teaching, and then quote the century old secular resource of the Catholic Encyclopedia, while I cite Conciliar Encyclicals and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. If you’re going to prove your points, you’re going to have to go to the source. The Catholic Encyclopedia, while often a good resource, is not a Church document, and is rife with personal, secular interpretation and thought. It is not an official document, and not an official representation of Church teaching.

I showed you where to find the Catechism online, so use that if you want to make arguments with me about what the Church actually teaches. If you insist on using non-authoritative, secular resources to prove Church teaching, when the actual documents are readily available, then this discussion simply can’t proceed, because you’re arguing against a Church that doesn’t exist, no matter what a secular source implies to the contrary. The chutzpah of your attempts are, frankly, rather stunning.

Now, for the other problems with your citations, specifically the Pope Victor situation:
It’s application was ignored, and he was himself the subject of verbal censure for doing so. "
Is absolutely false in its attestation that his decree was ignored. Have you read the actual account by Eusebius? Go back and read it and show me where it says his decree was ignored. It was challenged, certainly, but never ignored. On the contrary, Irenaeus pleads with Victor to take another course, not once saying he doesn’t have the authority. Would there be such exhortation if the power wasn’t even present? In fact, Eusebius directly contradicts the notion that the power was ignored when he says:
18 Thus Irenaeus, who truly was well named, became a peacemaker in this matter, exhorting and negotiating in this way in behalf of the peace of the churches. And he conferred by letter about this mooted question, not only with Victor, but also with most of the other rulers of the churches.
Irenaeus played peacemaker through negotiation and advise. There is absolutely no indication that any decree was ignored, rather that a more favorable outcome was negotiated with the person of power by Irenaeus. If you claim otherwise, prove it with Eusebius’ writing. Show us where the decree was ignored.
Great, your opinion based on your own re-working of argument!!!
Whelton’s claims are baseless in regards to actual Church documents. Funny how the actual text of Eusebius accounts, when read on their own, perfectly supports my statement that the Pope can be counsled on all matters. Again, you are citing Whelton’s claims, not any actual Church documents, and the flaws are starting to show.
This last part shows that the Bishop of Rome’s powers extended only to Rome. The novel development of power which Catholics later gave, where-by bishops could be removed by the Pope (as a sort of ‘captain-bishop’) was not known to the early church.
It shows no such thing, at least not in English. It says neither could persuade the other, which implies debate, not force. Neither of them could convince the other in debate and discussion, so they dropped the matter and had peace. If the Greek implies something other than discussion with the word that’s being translated as “persuade”, you may have a point. In English, however, your argument is actually contradicted.
If this is not about the Papacy then what riht has ‘Rome’ over church affairs? I know you wish to invent another novel take - this time some kind of spiritual ranking of the city, as opposed to the bishopric, which is what they’re referring to. And note that ‘next after Rome’ is in place of honour!
No, I’m pointing out that the royal privilege of Rome is distinct from the spiritual privilege. This passage is discussing the royal privileges of the Church of Constantinople, not matters of spiritual authority. The fact that royal privilege is specifically mentioned, when the Church in Rome existed, and was appealed to as can be seen by Eusebius, LONG before royal recognition, is telling. Remember, St. Cyprian’s writings that discuss Cornelius’ authority predate the conversion of the Emperor, so the spiritual privileges must exist seperate from the royal ones.

continued…
 
The whole reason you guys attempted to quote mine about Petrine supremecy was to show this!!!
You guys? You have me confused with the rest of the people here. You’re not dealing with someone who is interested in quote mining, you’re dealing with someone who is more than happy to personally dig deep into the Church Fathers. Just because some posters throw a hodge-podge of quotes at you doesn’t make it Church teaching. If you want teaching, I’ll give you teaching straight from encyclicals and the Catechism. Don’t presume that just because I’m giving a different response doesn’t mean we are trying to spin anything, I am personally reading each and every document you post, and then some. We’re on the same side, but that doesn’t make us a team, nor does it make all statements valid or true.
As I said, your spin on this is amazing. The Ecumenical Councils, following your schism from the church have all been called by the Pope; exercising his ‘authority’ as the head of the Catholic Church. You guys maintain that the Pope’s always had this authority. When I cite an example where the council’s not headed by Peter, but another Bishop, you say it’s a perfect example of Catholic councils!!!
Of course he’s always had this authority, you just don’t realize what authority the Church is talking about. Following the Schism, the Roman Church was by FAR the largest Church left in the Catholic Church. Since the Roman Patriarch was the only one with a fully intact Church, and the Church focus shifted to the West, he took the initiative in calling Councils. The Church has never claimed that the Pope always had to be the one to call an Ecumenical Council, only that the Pope always had to approve the decrees, or rather not veto them. Our current Canon Law reserves the right of the Pope alone to call Ecumenical Councils, but that is a matter of legal practice and guideline, nothing prevents that from changing at any time in the future.
St. Cyprian said in the opening address of the Council of Cathage…“In the administration of the Church each bishop has the free discretion of his own will, having to account only to the Lord for his actions. None of us may set himself up as bishop of bishops, nor compel his brothers to obey him; every bishop of the Church has full liberty and complete power; as he cannot be judged by another, neither can he judge another.”
Can you post the actual source of this rather than Whelton’s book? I don’t have access to Whelton’s work, nor would it be necessary to actually address this particular point. I’ll continue search through Cyprian’s works for this, but if you can post the original source it would help immensely.
[The Apostolic See of the West was necessarily all this in the eyes of an unambitious faithful Western co-bishop; but the letter itself proves that it was not the See of one who had any authority over or apart from his co-bishops. Let us not read into his expressions ideas which are an after-thought, and which conflict with the life and all the testimony of Cyprian.]
That footnote represents the personal opinion of the editor of these works, not anything in the original works. Considering we don’t know know the exact identity of the editor (Roger Pearce, perhaps?), nor their theological background, nor even the basis for their conclusion, there is no need to take this footnote into any serious consideration. In fact, the footnote is telling in that it offers nothing but personal opinion, and we don’t even have the identity of the person who wrote it.

:blessyou:
 
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Montalban:
The Catholic Church believes that the position of the Pope is supreme - he is the bishop of bishops, in that all other bishops answer to him as Christ’s vicar. Certainly he acts for ‘accord’ with the use of Council, but he is akin to a prince, rather than the president of a democracy.

To this ends, the examples from history shows that the early church did not view the Bishop of Rome as such. Acts 15 shows a council presided over by James.

The issue with Pope St. Victor shows Victor being only an authority over the church in Rome (and its surrounds). This is because the notion in the early church was that each and every church headed by a bishop is equal… and ‘catholic’ (noted and quoted earlier).

Church councils gave the See of the New Rome the same rights that the Old Rome held. The Council of Chalcedon said…“FOLLOWING in all things the decisions of the holy Fathers, and acknowledging the canon, which has been just read, of the One Hundred and Fifty Bishops beloved-of-God (who assembled in the imperial city of Constantinople, which is New Rome, in the time of the Emperor Theodosius of happy memory), we also do enact and decree the same things concerning the privileges of the most holy Church of Constantinople, which is New Rome. For the Fathers rightly granted privileges to the throne of old Rome, because it was the royal city. And the One Hundred and Fifty most religious Bishops, actuated by the same consideration, gave equal privileges (isa presbeia) to the most holy throne of New Rome, justly judging that the city which is honoured with the Sovereignty and the Senate, and enjoys equal privileges with the old imperial Rome, should in ecclesiastical matters also be magnified as she is, and rank next after her; so that, in the Pontic, the Asian, and the Thracian dioceses, the metropolitans only and such bishops also of the Dioceses aforesaid as are among the barbarians, should be ordained by the aforesaid most holy throne of the most holy Church of Constantinople; every metropolitan of the aforesaid dioceses, together with the bishops of his province, ordaining his own provincial bishops, as has been declared by the divine canons; but that, as has been above said, the metropolitans of the aforesaid Dioceses should be ordained by the archbishop of Constantinople, after the proper elections have been held according to custom and have been reported to him.” [1]

The second Ecumenical Council had earlier also stated that the same rights of the See of Old Rome to that of the New Rome. And that “…although it conceded that Rome was the first see of Christendom, it implied that Roman primacy depended on the city’s secular standing”.[2]

The Jesuit historian Leo Davis says “Though the canon was not directed against Rome, no notice was taken of the claim of its bishop to primacy among bishops based on his succession from Peter…” [3]

John, Patriarch of Constantinople, added the following sentence: “I hold the most holy Church of the old and the new Rome to be one. I define the see of the Apostle Peter and this of the imperial city to be the one see.” In doing this, he was recalling the fact that canon 28 of the Council of Constantinople declared that the Sees of Roman and Constantinople were equal."[4]

So, not only were other individuals declared by the church to be the ‘eqaul of the Apostles’, but other churches were declared to be the ‘equal of Rome’. There is nothing about Petrine supremecy associated with Rome, other than the just-so, that it is, because it is, because it is.

Notes.​

[1] ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-14/Npnf2-14-105.htm#P5349_1101598
[2] Chadwick, H, “The Early Church”, quoted in Whelton, pp51-52.
[3] Davis, L. D., (1983), “The First Ecumenical Councils (325-787): Their History and Theology”, (Michael Glazier Books; Collegeville, Minnesota), p128.

[4] Whelton, pp81-82.
Wow, a whole post describing how the Catholic Church views the Papacy, and not a single reference to an official Catholic source. This post is the epitomy of the main problem I’m talking about in your argument. You really need to start going to the source and not referencing second and third hand resources if you’re going to make a solid case. I intend that as constructive criticism.

Beyond that, this post isn’t even worth addressing because it’s loaded with misrepresentation of the Catholic teachings.

:blessyou:
 
Hi Montalban: :tiphat:
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Montalban:
Who really is ‘the Rock’ of Matthew 16?
The Catholic Church maintains a belief that of all the Apostles of Jesus, Peter was the leader. That, because he was in this unique position, the office of Papacy is also the leader of all the churches.

This claim stems in part from Jesus saying “On this rock, I will build my Church”; Catholics assuming that ‘rock’ here refers to the Apostle Peter himself. And as a result of this, Peter’s successors are to inherit some special power over the whole church. But what in fact did the early church make of this statement?
I posted this earlier and was ignored. It seems foundational to the discussion. Were you unable to or uninterested in answering it?

**What is the criteria by which we judge our current search(ie this thread) for truth regarding Peter and the rock?
**
  • Are we to simply assume that the most logical interpretation of the historical “facts” will lead us to the actual truth? What if they are not one and the same?
  • If your analysis is correct, what do you feel is the most significant practical aspect of that reality for a Roman Catholic
Thanks,

Phil
 
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Ghosty:
You presume to educate me in Church Teaching, and then quote the century old secular resource of the Catholic Encyclopedia, while I cite Conciliar Encyclicals and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
I have cited the newadvent site which is constantly updated on-line Catholic Encylopedia, but you seem to have trouble calling a spade a spade, hence you need to change it’s emphasis to being a ‘century old secular resource’ (which is true that it is that old, but that’s a dishonest attempt at re-working; like calling quote from Britianica into question because Brtianica itself was founded in the later 1700s). I think this is in part from embarrassment about being wrong about your own church.

I don’t recall you ‘citing’ any such thing. Posts #24, #28 PhilVaz mentions the Catechism
CARose does in Post #30. Where did you cite it? I recall you making a number of just-so statements.

Here is the Catechism:
**The episcopal college and its head, the Pope **
880 When Christ instituted the Twelve, "he constituted [them] in the form of a college or permanent assembly, at the head of which he placed Peter, chosen from among them."398 Just as "by the Lord’s institution, St. Peter and the rest of the apostles constitute a single apostolic college, so in like fashion the Roman Pontiff, Peter’s successor, and the bishops, the successors of the apostles, are related with and united to one another.
vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p4.htm#I

and
882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter’s successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful."402 “For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has **full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered.”**403
(Ibid)

Thus the Pope is the supreme head of the church. Even the college of cardinals can do nothing without him. How do you think this contradicts with what I’ve already cited?
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Ghosty:
Now, for the other problems with your citations, specifically the Pope Victor situation:
Montaban:
It’s application was ignored, and he was himself the subject of verbal censure for doing so. "
Is absolutely false in its attestation that his decree was ignored. Have you read the actual account by Eusebius? Go back and read it and show me where it says his decree was ignored. It was challenged, certainly, but never ignored. On the contrary, Irenaeus pleads with Victor to take another course, not once saying he doesn’t have the authority. Would there be such exhortation if the power wasn’t even present?
Oh, dear! Another re-working. Sure, he ‘pleaded’, but not as one crying out to the head of the church, for he also ‘rebuked him’. (see below) You miss the very point of church government. No bishop had authority over any other bishop. All that could be done was to persuade another bishop to change his mind.
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Ghosty:
In fact, Eusebius directly contradicts the notion that the power was ignored when he says:

18 Thus Irenaeus, who truly was well named,became a peacemaker in this matter, exhorting and negotiating in this way in behalf of the peace of the churches. And he conferred by letter about this mooted question, not only with Victor, but also with most of the other rulers of the churches.

Irenaeus played peacemaker through negotiation and advise. There is absolutely no indication that any decree was ignored, rather that a more favorable outcome was negotiated with the person of power by Irenaeus. If you claim otherwise, prove it with Eusebius’ writing. Show us where the decree was ignored.
You must have missed…

10 But this did not please all the bishops. And they besought him to consider the things of peace, and of neighborly unity and love. Words of theirs are extant, sharply rebuking Victor.

11 Among them was Irenaeus, who, sending letters in the name of the brethren in Gaul over whom he presided, maintained that the mystery of the resurrection of the Lord should be observed only on the Lord’s day. He fittingly admonishes Victor that he should not cut off whole churches of God which observed the tradition of an ancient custom and after many other words he proceeds as follows:

ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-01/Npnf2-01-10.htm#P2729_1313445
 
Thus, you need to see the context. The church in Asia Minor which was independent of every other church had a different Easter celebration. Victor tries to excommunicate them. He shocks all the other bishops for attempting to do so. This is because all the bishops are the supreme heads of their own churches, and Victor is out of his realm to do so. He is sternly rebuked for over-stepping his mark. But, in an effort to maintain peace he is asked to withdraw his remarks. Thus if you read on, you’ll see how the matter was resolved…

Chapter XXV. How All Came to an Agreement Respecting the Passover.

1 Those in Palestine whom we have recently mentioned, Narcissus and Theophilus, and with them Cassius, bishop of the church of Tyre, and Clarus of the church of Ptolemais, and those who met with them, having stated many things respecting the tradition concerning the passover which had come to them in succession from the apostles, at the close of their writing add these words:

2 "Endeavor to send copies of our letter to every church, that we may not furnish occasion to those who easily deceive their souls. We show you indeed that also in Alexandria they keep it on the same day that we do. For letters are carried from us to them and from them to us, so that in the same manner and at the same time we keep the sacred day.

(Ibid).

They didn’t go “Oh, Victor, our head of the Church, in the position of Peter has spoken, we obey him” (which is the Catholic model (as evidenced by Catechism and the NewAdvent encyclopedia). Bishops met with other bishops and tried persuasion.
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Montalban:
Great, your opinion based on your own re-working of argument!!!
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Ghosty:
Whelton’s claims are baseless in regards to actual Church documents. Funny how the actual text of Eusebius accounts, when read on their own, perfectly supports my statement that the Pope can be counsled on all matters. Again, you are citing Whelton’s claims, not any actual Church documents, and the flaws are starting to show.
Funny you re-work Catholic faith into a fraternal arrangement, which it isn’t.
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Montalban:
This last part shows that the Bishop of Rome’s powers extended only to Rome. The novel development of power which Catholics later gave, where-by bishops could be removed by the Pope (as a sort of ‘captain-bishop’) was not known to the early church.
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Ghosty:
It shows no such thing, at least not in English. It says neither could persuade the other, which implies debate, not force.
Ding! Ding! That’s the point. Neither could force, because the Pope had no power on other churches. He was not the supreme head of the church - which is a Catholic belief that was invented much later on, which is what this whole thread is about.
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Montalban:
If this is not about the Papacy then what riht has ‘Rome’ over church affairs? I know you wish to invent another novel take - this time some kind of spiritual ranking of the city, as opposed to the bishopric, which is what they’re referring to. And note that ‘next after Rome’ is in place of honour!
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Ghosty:
No, I’m pointing out that the royal privilege of Rome is distinct from the spiritual privilege. This passage is discussing the royal privileges of the Church of Constantinople, not matters of spiritual authority. The fact that royal privilege is specifically mentioned, when the Church in Rome existed, and was appealed to as can be seen by Eusebius, LONG before royal recognition, is telling. Remember, St. Cyprian’s writings that discuss Cornelius’ authority predate the conversion of the Emperor, so the spiritual privileges must exist seperate from the royal ones.
You still seem confused. Why is the church making arrangements/arguments about the change of Rome’s secular position? They had no right to do so.
 
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Montalban:
Philthy, uninterested.
Interesting -

Thank you for your reply. You seem very knowledgable and opinionated regarding this topic and have obviously put a lot of time into it. I hope it bears fruit for you…

Phil
 
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Ghosty:
No it doesn’t, it says that the episcopate was given to Linus. We Catholics agree. It doesn’t say Linus was the first bishop of Rome at all, only that he was indeed a bishop of Rome appointed by the Apostles. That perfectly attests to the Catholic claim of Linus being the successor of Peter as Bishop of Rome.
Someone else gave a better answer than I could give (because you’ve ignored the mention of Paul as a founder of the church in Rome)
"If our critics claim Linus was the first after Peter then what was Paul doing in this line of authority? The Roman Catholic Church doesn’t claim Paul was the second bishop of Rome. Irenaeus however is quite clear that Paul was involved in the placement of Linus as the bishop of Rome. He also mentions that the apostles gave Linus the episcopate of the church of Rome and was charged with “governing that church.”
fortunecity.com/meltingpot/bicycleroad/21/id174.htm
 
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Philthy:
Interesting -

Thank you for your reply. You seem very knowledgable and opinionated regarding this topic and have obviously put a lot of time into it. I hope it bears fruit for you…

Phil
Thanks, but being just on my own I can only deal with one line of questions at a time. Yours seem to be going to my ‘motivations’ etc, which are off-topic.

Regards,
Monty.
 
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Ghosty:
You guys? You have me confused with the rest of the people here. You’re not dealing with someone who is interested in quote mining, you’re dealing with someone who is more than happy to personally dig deep into the Church Fathers.
Then why do you seldom quote them in a source I can investigate? I note below this doesn’t satisfy you…
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Ghosty:
Can you post the actual source of this rather than Whelton’s book? I don’t have access to Whelton’s work, nor would it be necessary to actually address this particular point. I’ll continue search through Cyprian’s works for this, but if you can post the original source it would help immensely.
The only thing I can find it on is another quote-on-its-own…
“Let each one give his opinion without judging anyone and without separating from the communion those who are not of his opinion; for none of us sets himself up for a bishop of bishops, nor compels his brethren to obey him by means of tyrannical terror, every bishop having full liberty and complete power; as he cannot be judged by another, neither can he judge another. Let all wait the judgment of our Lord Jesus Christ, who alone has the power to appoint us to the government of his church and to judge our conduct.”

Council of Carthage. St. Cyprian, pp.329-330, Bened. Edition; The Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 5, p.565; PATROLOGY Vol 2 (Quaster). pp.375-376. See also Epistle 71,3 (72). quoted at

fortunecity.com/meltingpot/bicycleroad/21/id174.htm
 
I noted at the bottom of the quote it refers to Cyprian’s 71st Epistle. (found at ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-05/anf05-96.htm#P6247_1976812)

You will note that Cyprian writes to the Pope to inform him of a decision made by Cyprian’s church. He doesn’t seek the Pope’s approval, but addresses him as a brother.
  1. We have brought these things, dearest brother, to your knowledge, for the sake of our mutual honour and sincere affection; believing that, according to the truth of your religion and faith, those things which are no less religious than true will be approved by you.(Ibid)
The ‘mutual honour’ shows that Cyprian views himself to have the same standing as his brother bishop in Rome.
 
I have cited the newadvent site which is constantly updated on-line Catholic Encylopedia, but you seem to have trouble calling a spade a spade, hence you need to change it’s emphasis to being a ‘century old secular resource’ (which is true that it is that old, but that’s a dishonest attempt at re-working; like calling quote from Britianica into question because Brtianica itself was founded in the later 1700s). I think this is in part from embarrassment about being wrong about your own church.
:rotfl:

I’m glad you think so. The Catholic Encyclopedia is not constantly updated, however, at least not in individual articles. Look at the bottom of the articles for the dates of their individual printing. I’m not worried about you thinking I’m wrong about my own Church when you can’t even get the facts right on your own sources. 😛

The fact that it’s a century old is important because theological opinions change greatly in a century, espescially the 20th century. Furthermore, teachings have been clarified with encyclicals and the Second Vatican Council.
I don’t recall you ‘citing’ any such thing. Posts #24, #28 PhilVaz mentions the Catechism
CARose does in Post #30. Where did you cite it? I recall you making a number of just-so statements.
Wow, first you don’t read your own cited sources for their dates and level of authority, and then you’ve been responding to me without actually reading what I’ve written? I even cited the paragraphs from the CCC you’re now quoting at me, no less. I won’t even dignify this by pointing out the post in which I cited it, because that would discourage you from actually going back and reading my posts, which apparently you haven’t been doing very well.
Thus the Pope is the supreme head of the church. Even the college of cardinals can do nothing without him. How do you think this contradicts with what I’ve already cited?
:hmmm: Where on Earth are you getting that from those passages? In fact, are you aware of how a Pope is selected in the first place? Not familiar with the term “sede vacante”, eh?
Oh, dear! Another re-working. Sure, he ‘pleaded’, but not as one crying out to the head of the church, for he also ‘rebuked him’. (see below) You miss the very point of church government. No bishop had authority over any other bishop. All that could be done was to persuade another bishop to change his mind.
Wow, you really haven’t been reading my posts. Ok, I’ll throw you a bone this time. I said:
If the Pope expressed an interest in excommunicating someone, I myself, as a layman, would be within my rights and place to personally counsel the Pope against it, even harshly if necessary.
Catholics absolutely recognize the right of people to harshly criticize actions of the Pope. We do it all the time. It’s not forbidden at all. Rebuking someone doesn’t imply that they don’t have the authority to do something, just as many Americans have been sharply rebuking the President for his foreign policy, all while recognizing his authority as commander-in-chief. Again, you’re dealing with the straw-man of “in the past they rebuked the Bishop of Rome, so they must not have recognized him as Pope”, while ignoring the fact that we’ve rebuked Popes forever, and continue to do so. I’m sure glad the Catholic Church isn’t the church you seem to be describing, that would be one horrible organization! 😛

I recommend you read this article about our most beloved Pope Alexander VI as just a starting point for how deeply our Popes can and have been criticized and rebuked. There are countless other examples and articles, but just one suffices to show that we Catholics are considered perfectly in line ecclesiastically for harshly condemning the Pope and his actions.
They didn’t go “Oh, Victor, our head of the Church, in the position of Peter has spoken, we obey him” (which is the Catholic model (as evidenced by Catechism and the NewAdvent encyclopedia). Bishops met with other bishops and tried persuasion.
You really need to do some more research on the history of the Papacy. Just the single reign of Alexander VI proves you wrong in this.
Ding! Ding! That’s the point. Neither could force, because the Pope had no power on other churches. QUOTE]

I’m twisting things around? Neither could persuade, it says nothing about whether or not they could force eachother to obey. The fact that neither of them did so doesn’t indicate that neither of them had the power to do so. You’re presuming the lack of authority because of the lack of mentioning it being used, which is similar to saying they must have lacked the ability to run because it doesn’t mention them sprinting around Rome. Pure non-sense.

continued…
 
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