Who is the Supreme head of your LOCAL Church?

[mardukm]

For the sake of some of our members here in the Eastern Catholicism Forum, I am doing this poll.

WITHIN your patriarchate, who do you consider to be the supreme head of your particular Church?

This poll is open ONLY for Eastern and Oriental Catholics.

I hope it does not need to be said that this refers to the visible head of the Church (OK, there I said it).

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[mardukm]

**PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT THIS POLL IS OPEN ONLY TO EASTERN AND ORIENTAL CATHOLICS.

THANK YOU.**

 

[mardukm]

Dear Eastern and Oriental brethren,

Please understand that my use of the word “supreme” is not a formal title (as it is in several Oriental Orthodox Churches, or as it is used with the Pope). I am simply asking, “who/what do you consider to be the highest authority WITHIN your Patriarchate for the specific handling of your Patriarchate’s INTERNAL affairs?” I hope that clarifies it further.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[gthever]

Dear Eastern and Oriental brethren,

Please understand that my use of the word “supreme” is not a formal title (as it is in several Oriental Orthodox Churches, or as it is used with the Pope). I am simply asking, “who/what do you consider to be the highest authority WITHIN your Patriarchate for the specific handling of your Patriarchate’s INTERNAL affairs?” I hope that clarifies it further.

Blessings,
Marduk

I already voted for the Pope, but after reading the above post, I would change my mind to our primate, Moran Mor Basileous Cleemis Catholicos.

But ultimately, the Supreme head is HH, the Pope. The head of our particular is HB, the Catholicos, and responsible for the internal workings of the Malankara Church.

So in light of that, the poll numbers are misleading, take one away from the Pope and add it to the Patriarch column.

 

[rad]

The Code of Canons of the Oriental Churches is quite clear that the Pope holds supreme authority in every Church and every diocese, whether in the West or in the East…

Canon 45 - §1. The Roman Pontiff, by virtue of his office (munus), not only has power over the entire Church but also possesses a primacy of ordinary power over all the eparchies and groupings of them by which the proper, ordinary and immediate power which bishops possess in the eparchy entrusted to their care is both strengthened and safeguarded.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother rad,

The Code of Canons of the Oriental Churches is quite clear that the Pope holds supreme authority in every Church and every diocese, whether in the West or in the East…

Canon 45 - §1. The Roman Pontiff, by virtue of his office (munus), not only has power over the entire Church but also possesses a primacy of ordinary power over all the eparchies and groupings of them by which the proper, ordinary and immediate power which bishops possess in the eparchy entrusted to their care is both strengthened and safeguarded.

Thank you for demonstrating to us here exactly what the Pope utilizes his “supreme authority” for - “by which the proper, ordinary and immediate power which bishops possess in the eparchy entrusted to their care is both strengthened and safeguarded.”

Are you sure you don’t want to be a Catholic apologist?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[rad]

Thank you for demonstrating to us here exactly what the Pope utilizes his “supreme authority” for - “by which the proper, ordinary and immediate power which bishops possess in the eparchy entrusted to their care is both strengthened and safeguarded.”

And who and what is it that possesses the Supreme authority which “strengthens and safeguards” the local authority of the bishops?

It is the Pope - who is the sole Supreme authority above them all. It is by virtue of his Supreme authority that he is able to “strengthen and safeguard” them and their local diocesan authority.

You must take the whole canon and not just isolate a phrase which suits you…

Canon 45 - §1. The Roman Pontiff, by virtue of his office (munus), not only has power over the entire Church but also possesses a primacy of ordinary power over all the eparchies and groupings of them by which the proper, ordinary and immediate power which bishops possess in the eparchy entrusted to their care is both strengthened and safeguarded.

Read all the Canons in this particular Chapter. They all serve to state the Supreme authority of the Pope in every Church and in every diocese (eparchy). He is the Supreme authority over the entire Church and within every Patriarchal Church.

Those why deny this authority of the Pope are standing against his own mind and will as clearly expressed in the canons.

 

[mardukm]

And who and what is it that possesses the Supreme authority which “strengthens and upholds” the local authority of the bishops?

It is the Pope - who is the sole Supreme authority above them all. It is by virtue of his Supreme authority that he is able to “strengthen and uphold” them and their local diocesan authority.

You must take the whole canon and not just isolate a phrase which suits you…

Canon 45 - §1. The Roman Pontiff, by virtue of his office (munus), not only has power over the entire Church but also possesses a primacy of ordinary power over all the eparchies and groupings of them by which the proper, ordinary and immediate power which bishops possess in the eparchy entrusted to their care is both strengthened and safeguarded.

Read all the Canons in this particular Chapter. They all serve to state the Supreme authority of the Pope in every Church and in every diocese (eparchy). He is the Supreme authority over the entire Church and within every Patriarchal Church.

Those why deny this authority of the Pope are standing against his own mind and will as clearly expressed in the canons.

Do you understand “supreme authority” to mean that he can usurp and replace the authority of any bishop ,Patriarch or Metropolitan?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

For the sake of some of our members here in the Eastern Catholicism Forum, I am doing this poll.

WITHIN your patriarchate, who do you consider to be the supreme head of your particular Church?

This poll is open ONLY for Eastern and Oriental Catholics.

I hope it does not need to be said that this refers to the visible head of the Church (OK, there I said it).

Blessings,
Marduk

Actually this poll is open ONLY for Eastern and Oriental Catholics who are part of a patriarchal Church. Not all of us are.

 

[rad]

Do you understand “supreme authority” to mean that he can usurp and replace the authority of any bishop ,Patriarch or Metropolitan?

Of course. If any bishop, Patriarch or Metropolitan started marrying men to men or began to preach the divinity of Mary or that there are other ways to the Father than through Christ, the Pope could pull them in a flash.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Byzcath,

Actually this poll is open ONLY for Eastern and Oriental Catholics who are part of a patriarchal Church. Not all of us are.

Good point, brother. I realized that within half an hour of my posting the poll when one of our Eastern brethren picked the second option.

Could you please enumerate for us here which Eastern Churches are metropolitan/arch-metropolitan jurisidctions? I’m pretty sure all the Oriental Churches have patriarichal jurisdictions (I could be wrong - jurisdictional demographics isn’t my strong suit. I ain’t infallible - bad joke ).

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[malphono]

… I’m pretty sure all the Oriental Churches have patriarichal jurisdictions (I could be wrong - jurisdictional demographics isn’t my strong suit. I ain’t infallible - bad joke ).

Blessings,
Marduk

Actually, not quite. The Syro-Malabar Church is similar to the UGCC in that its head is a Major Archbishop. The Syro-Malankara Church is technically headed by a Catholicos. It used to be that the Armenian Church (and, perhaps, the Ethiopian Church as well but I have no specific recollection about that) was also led by a Catholicos, but I’m not sure if that is still technically correct, or if it is a case similar to the UGCC.

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

misread the poll.

The supreme leader of the Church of the East of the Chaldean and Assyrians is **Mar Emmanuel III Cardinal Delly

**

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother rad,

Of course. If any bishop, Patriarch or Metropolitan started marrying men to men or began to preach the divinity of Mary or that there are other ways to the Father than through Christ, the Pope could pull them in a flash.

Well, yeah, that’s a given (more to say on that in the last paragraph). I’ve always maintained that on a matter of faith, morals and a universal canon, the Pope has full authority to exercise his prerogatives directly. And I don’t think 99.9% of Catholics (Eastern, Oriental, Latin) denies that, perhaps not even brother Jimmy (though it’s possible he would fall within that 0.1% group)

The main concern of most Oriental and Eastern Catholics is on matters of internal discipline and canon and much-cherished small-t traditions which, I’m sure you know, are veritably regarded as big-T Traditions in the Oriental and Eastern Churches.

In THAT context, are you saying that the canon you cite states that on such matters as enumerated in the previous paragraph, the Pope’s “supreme authority” can usurp and replace the authority of any bishop/Patriarch/metropolitan?

Now with regards to the Holy Father pulling them “in a flash,” it is not actually “in a flash.” The Patriarch will have every opportunity to defend himself and/or recant his heterodoxy. At this point, my memory is a bit spotty. I know that the canons state that a Patriarch can be tried by a papal tribunal. I’m just a little foggy on how that comes about. I mean, I don’t exactly recall if the canons say that ONLY a papal tribunal can try a Patriarch, or if a Patriarch is canonically tried within his Synod FIRST, and then may appeal his case to Rome afterwards.

Blessings,
Marduk

P.S. remember to respond to my next-to-the-last paragraph above.

 

[mardukm]

Actually, not quite. The Syro-Malabar Church is similar to the UGCC in that its head is a Major Archbishop. The Syro-Malankara Church is technically headed by a Catholicos. It used to be that the Armenian Church (and, perhaps, the Ethiopian Church as well but I have no specific recollection about that) was also led by a Catholicos, but I’m not sure if that is still technically correct, or if it is a case similar to the UGCC.

:banghead: :banghead:
Yeah, like I didn’t just give a big dissertation on the matter in another thread! I am seriously going senile.

Thanks for the reminder, brother.

Abundant blessings,
Marduk

P.S. If the Armenian Catholic Church is going according to the usage of the Armenian Apostolic Church, then their Catholicos would be equivalent to a Patriarch (unless “Catholicos” has a particularly distinct meaning in Catholic jargon).

 

[malphono]

:banghead: :banghead:
Yeah, like I didn’t just give a big dissertation on the matter in another thread! I am seriously going senile.

Thanks for the reminder, brother.

Abundant blessings,
Marduk

P.S. If the Armenian Catholic Church is going according to the usage of the Armenian Apostolic Church, then their Catholicos would be equivalent to a Patriarch (unless “Catholicos” has a particularly distinct meaning in Catholic jargon).

I know all about what I will euphemistically call “senior moments” … far more than I care to know…

Anyway … in practical terms, the title Catholicos is equivalent to Patriarch. It was used where an Oriental Church was headed from other than an ancient Patriarchal see. (e.g., the Armenians, where the title was Catholicos of Cilicia, etc.) Why it’s not used for Syro-Malabars is a question that I cannot answer.

 

[rad]

Are we Orthodox allowed to vote after all?

I see that at least one Orthodox priest has voted.

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother rad,

I was thinking about that after I saw that an EO Father voted. The purpose of this thread is to demonstrate what the custom of the Eastern and Oriental Churches is regarding the identity of the highest VISIBLE authority in their particular or local Church.

After some thought, I think it would go a long way in demonstrating the validity of that purpose to include the beliefs of our Orthodox brethren.

So by all means.

THE OP IS OPENING UP THIS POLL FOR PARTICIPATION BY EASTERN AND ORIENTAL ORTHODOX MEMBERS.

If anyone has another option to present, please, let us discuss it in the body of the thread.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[rad]

After some thought, I think it would go a long way in demonstrating the validity of that purpose to include the beliefs of our Orthodox brethren.

So by all means.

THE OP IS OPENING UP THIS POLL FOR PARTICIPATION BY EASTERN AND ORIENTAL ORTHODOX MEMBERS.

This creates a dishonest poll since the Orthodox obviously cannot vote for the Pope and so they are obliged to choose the other option.

You are loading the poll in favor of one option.

 

[mardukm]

This creates a dishonest poll since the Orthodox obviously cannot vote for the Pope and so they are obliged to choose the other option.

You are loading the poll in favor of one option.

What other option do you propose for an answer to the question “Who/what is the highest VISIBLE authority in your local Church?”

Blessings,
Marduk