Who is the toughest nut to crack?

[Randy_Carson]

yes, I didn’t oppose your mention of gehinom for that reason, we will get judged. However, we must go back and unite with the creator in the end. We’re part of him and must return anyway.

So, it doesn’t really matter from G-d’s point of view whether we are obedient to the Law or not…we’re all returning to G-d eventually no matter what?

 

[504Katrin]

So, it doesn’t really matter **from G-d’s point of view **whether we are obedient to the Law or not…we’re all returning to G-d eventually no matter what?

uuuuuhhhhhhh this is a question for a Rav, really. It’s above my head.

 

[Randy_Carson]

uuuuuhhhhhhh this is a question for a Rav, really. It’s above my head.

Previously, you wrote:

I found that I wasn’t living my life according to Gd while I was in the catholic church. Every rule there was I kept so precisely that I even drove the Priest nuts, and I used to cling to it as there weren’t many, and also because I already sensed that I was made to build my realtionship with him through his commandments. But there wasn’t enough that I could do individually, there was a huge hole, and also I felt I couldn’t learn about Gd. One Priest even told me I wouldn’t have to know anything, but believe…all I had to have was faith. I cried.

I finally read the “Old Testament” and that was it. I remember how devastated I was over the fact that we didn’t celebrate Yom Kippur for instance, and all answers to my thread couldn’t console me as there was only one answer really: A duck needs a pond to be happy.

Now, I can really learn about Gd in schul and my life evolves around him and our bond is strong through keeping his law.

What you’re saying is that you were trying really hard to obey Catholic rules and driving a priest crazy with your scruples and there wasn’t enough you could “do” to please God by being obedient, etc. Finally, you discovered the Old Testament Law, and you are thrilled because you have a clear set of rules that you can follow to make God happy.

Except that Jesus came to free us from the Law that we could never live up to. You can never “earn” your way into heaven.

Paul was a Pharisee, the strictest sect within Judaism, and he studied under one of the greatest rabbis of all time, Gamaliel. He wrote a letter to the Romans in which he explains clearly that no one will be made righteous by observance of the law.

I suggest you read it closely. :yup:

 

[Randy_Carson]

Posted by bzkoss236 in another thread:

Back in the days of the OT, before Christ came, people weren’t saved yet. They went to the “Bosom of Abraham” which was a special place in hell where those who died in God’s favor were protected from the pit of the damned. However, the Jewish Church was the true Church of God. Then when Christ came, he fulfilled the Old Covenant rendering it’s laws moot, meaning that anyone who followed Christ were freed from the Old Laws. Christ established new Laws and established a new Church that became the new one true Church of God (the Church of Christ), which is the Catholic Church. After Christ’s death, he freed the souls in “Abraham’s Bosom” who were resurrected with him and walked among the people. Then Christ took them to heaven with him. They were saved by Christ, like all those who are saved are.

Now, for those left alive after Christ’s resurrection, it was through the Church that people are led to Christ to be saved. So, salvation only comes through Christ’s Church, whose visible body is that of the Catholic Church. But there are those who are not part of the visible Church, but still a part of the invisible Body of Christ (the invisible Church). The invisible Church consists of those who sincerely try to follow God and Christ by way of his visible Church, but may also consist of those who sincerely try to follow God and Christ, but are outside the visible Church.

Now, this means that it is possible to be saved while outside the visible Catholic Church, yes. However, the farther from the visible body of the Catholic Church you get, the less likely it is. So, possible, yes, but not as likely. So, to become a part of the Catholic Church and follow Her teachings is to be more assured of your salvation.

 

[Kaninchen]

Will you enjoy a pleasing afterlife as a result of following the Law?

That’s not the point of following the Law, following the law is the point - the focus of Judaism is the ‘here and now’.

If you fail to follow the Law to G-d’s satisfaction are you at risk of Gehenna?

The concepts of Christian Hell and Jewish Gehenna are not the same, its more like your Purgatory, a place of purification. Originally, Judaism seems to have been closer to Sumerian (afterlife as fading away of ‘shades’) ideas rather than the highly colourful afterlife of ancient Egyptian and other religions.

Anyway, the whole question of the ‘Afterlife’ has always been pretty vague in Judaism - it’s not in the Torah - and thought on the subject has really been a matter of deducing from premises such as ‘God is Good.’ It’s all just speculation really - and a lot of folklore - we believe in it, or hope for it, but beyond that . . .

 

[Kelfa28]

Hubby and I had a little fun debating this one. Nice question!

Our conclusion was the Jewish neighbor from New York.

The Mormon and JW are the easiest. They are there at your doorstep to convert you. The entire conversation is around converting you.
Converting them just depends on how much you know your faith and theirs. You can plant bugs in their ears that aren’t easy to get rid of.
Plus…they can either run away and not come back, come back and bring reinforcements and continue the discussion (more opportunity to plant bugs) or they can convert.

The Muslim from work is tough just because he is a coworker and that isn’t the best time or opportunity to convert a coworker.

The Cafeteria Catholic shouldn’t be too hard at all…as long as they are on the same level playing field when it comes to Jesus. Even then…if they are willing to listen to you and have a discussion about the Church.

I was a Cafeteria Catholic and my husband was a protestant that convinced me of the validity of Catholicism. He and I went through RCIA together…
As long as the Catholic wishes to engage in dialogue…you can either convince them of what the Church teaches or try to convince them to become an Episcopalian.

The hardest is the nice Jewish lady. She is your neighbor, she is from New York and she is at least culturally Jewish. Therefore you will have conversations with her, she will be stubborn and you will have a ton of history and tradition to erase from her in order to convince her to become Catholic.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hubby and I had a little fun debating this one. Nice question!

Our conclusion was the Jewish neighbor from New York.

The Mormon and JW are the easiest. They are there at your doorstep to convert you. The entire conversation is around converting you.
Converting them just depends on how much you know your faith and theirs. You can plant bugs in their ears that aren’t easy to get rid of.
Plus…they can either run away and not come back, come back and bring reinforcements and continue the discussion (more opportunity to plant bugs) or they can convert.

The Muslim from work is tough just because he is a coworker and that isn’t the best time or opportunity to convert a coworker.

The Cafeteria Catholic shouldn’t be too hard at all…as long as they are on the same level playing field when it comes to Jesus. Even then…if they are willing to listen to you and have a discussion about the Church.

I was a Cafeteria Catholic and my husband was a protestant that convinced me of the validity of Catholicism. He and I went through RCIA together…
As long as the Catholic wishes to engage in dialogue…you can either convince them of what the Church teaches or try to convince them to become an Episcopalian.

The hardest is the nice Jewish lady. She is your neighbor, she is from New York and she is at least culturally Jewish. Therefore you will have conversations with her, she will be stubborn and you will have a ton of history and tradition to erase from her in order to convince her to become Catholic.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

Perhaps I should have included Jewish ladies from Europe, also.

 

[Randy_Carson]

That’s not the point of following the Law, following the law is the point - the focus of Judaism is the ‘here and now’.

The concepts of Christian Hell and Jewish Gehenna are not the same, its more like your Purgatory, a place of purification. Originally, Judaism seems to have been closer to Sumerian (afterlife as fading away of ‘shades’) ideas rather than the highly colourful afterlife of ancient Egyptian and other religions.

Anyway, the whole question of the ‘Afterlife’ has always been pretty vague in Judaism - it’s not in the Torah - and thought on the subject has really been a matter of deducing from premises such as ‘God is Good.’ It’s all just speculation really - and a lot of folklore - we believe in it, or hope for it, but beyond that . . .

A quick Google search tells me that most rabbis think that 11 months is about the maximum amount of time anyone will spend in the “waiting room” before being let into heaven.

Wouldn’t that be great if true?

 

[IAmAKaur]

Perhaps the hardest nut to crack is the convert from another religion who, after much time, effort, and prayer, decides to abandon their original faith and become a member of another one. While it does sometimes happen, I think it is very difficult to “lure” such a person back to their original faith, especially if the reason they convert to begin with is the realization their initial faith is lacking in some way.

I agree. I left Christianity (my original faith) some time ago (about 4 years ago) and I can honestly say now that melterboy’s post describes my situation perfectly. I always found Christianity, regardless of the form, lacking in many ways and finding Sikhi for me answered those things I was lacking.

 

[504Katrin]

I agree. I left Christianity (my original faith) some time ago (about 4 years ago) and I can honestly say now that melterboy’s post describes my situation perfectly. I always found Christianity, regardless of the form, lacking in many ways and finding Sikhi for me answered those things I was lacking.

nice Is there a big community where you live? How many are you?

 

[IAmAKaur]

nice Is there a big community where you live? How many are you?

The community here is still fairly small, and numbers around 500 (I think) although it is slowly growing. The gurdwara here was only completed in 2011, after years of the community meeting in a church hall, which was not the best arrangement. The new building allows for more regular, permanent activities and worship.

Newcastle has a much bigger Sikh population, and has more recently completed a massive new gurdwara building project.

 

[504Katrin]

The community here is still fairly small, and numbers around 500 (I think) although it is slowly growing. The gurdwara here was only completed in 2011, after years of the community meeting in a church hall, which was not the best arrangement. The new building allows for more regular, permanent activities and worship.

Newcastle has a much bigger Sikh population, and has more recently completed a massive new gurdwara building project.

Wow 500 peeps? From my point of view this is a big community. Even the catholic community here (church goers) isn’t that big. It just seems that people are getting less and less religious over here.

 

[IAmAKaur]

Wow 500 peeps? From my point of view this is a big community. Even the catholic community here (church goers) isn’t that big. It just seems that people are getting less and less religious over here.

I honestly can’t say if all the people in that 500 are amritdhari or are regular attendees at gurdwara, but certainly it’s an impressive number for my city in terms of any one religious grouping. Funnily enough the gurdwara is a converted church building.

 

[patrick457]

The young Mormon missionary out on his bicycle?
The Jehovah’s Witness at your door on Saturday morning?
The muslim co-worker at the office?
The Jewish lady from New York who now lives next door to you?
The Baptist who thinks the pope is the anti-Christ?
The Cafeteria Catholic who uses contraception and thinks women priests would be okay?

And why?

I actually consider my greatest enemy to be myself, actually.

I’d like to add another one: “the highly-secularized acquaintance of yours who isn’t too familiar with religion and in fact has a negative opinion of all religions in general.” In other words, the type who thinks that any talk of religion is ‘proselytizing’ and thus taboo. There are quite a number of them here in Japan. A fact that’s not helped by the rise of “New Religions” and groups like the infamous Aum Shinrikyo (which really blackened religion’s reputation to many Japanese in general for their practices - which veered into outright brainwashing - and crimes traced to the group, particularly the 1995 gas attack on Tokyo subways), Happy Science (yes, you heard the name right), and Soka Gakkai. And there’s also…well, that politician who calls himself “the only God, Matayoshi Mitsuo Jesus Christ.”