Who is the Whore of Babylon?

  • Thread starter Thread starter sorrowfulagony
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

sorrowfulagony

Guest
I think the end might be near, honestly, since there is the prophecy of the popes (one more after this one) and there’s a Jewish mathematics movement which reveals many of modern times in Jewish scriptures…
Let’s look at these claims against us: seven hills, scarlet and purple, gold cup filled with wrath, drunk with blood of saints, in her was found the blood of all who had been slain on earth… okay: THAT LAST ONE makes me say: Wait a minute?! The Catholic Church is responsible for the deaths from the Assyrian Empire? From the Jihadist terrorists?

So, who could it be?
 
All such speculation is fruitless and borders on being sinful, insomuch as Christ himself stated clearly that only the Father knows the day and time!
 
The Whore of Babylon (historicist/preterist/amillennialist) is Pagan Rome or Apostate Jerusalem. The evidence is nine to one against Jerusalem and for Rome (as that is the plain reading of the text, so far as it can be determined to have been read by first century audiences), but some Catholics seem to be embarrassed of it, as if Pagan Imperial Rome had anything to do with Roman Catholicism other than sharing a name. (And because Fundamentalist Anti-Catholics like Jack Chick and Alexander Hislop do like to make that connection, however tenuously tendentious, completely baseless and self-refuting it is.)

In accordance with the Catechism’s teachings, I tend to keep my own premillennialist musings to myself. Look to the seventh-century region now known as the Middle East for possible ideas - as pure speculation - on who one of the Beasts may be, or Gog and Magog, or both (who come out from the desert at the ends of the earth). Note, it’s not obscure: it’s one of the main events of seventh-century history (based not on any real exegesis, but on the fact that the lesser beast would cause the people to worship the greater).
 
I always thought that the Whore of Babylon was Babylon itself.
 
sorrowfulagony said:
I think the end might be near, honestly, since there is the prophecy of the popes (one more after this one) and there’s a Jewish mathematics movement which reveals many of modern times in Jewish scriptures…
Let’s look at these claims against us: seven hills, scarlet and purple, gold cup filled with wrath, drunk with blood of saints, in her was found the blood of all who had been slain on earth… okay: THAT LAST ONE makes me say: Wait a minute?! The Catholic Church is responsible for the deaths from the Assyrian Empire? From the Jihadist terrorists?

So, who could it be?
Click to expand...
Pagan Imperial Rome is the most probably, notice the Vatican is on the other side of the river
 
sorrowfulagony

The Church hasn’t dogmatized any view, regarding your question.

The Church has been historically, A-millennial or nunc-millennial in regards to eschatology!
 
George_Stegmeir said:
All such speculation is fruitless and borders on being sinful, insomuch as Christ himself stated clearly that only the Father knows the day and time!
Click to expand...
Sinful? says who?

it is not a good idea to proof-text - that verse is taken out of context here in this post. Jesus said that, true, but it is not an accurate representation of what He actually said in full. He said, in the same discussion, that while nobody knows the specific date or time, there would be signs given to let us know His approach is near (in another words that we are in the season of the end). Then the more appropriate questions become, what are the signs, and why are they given? in my opinion, these are given as a Mercy so those in the light will warn those not in the light, so that more will be saved upon His return.

God bless you.
 
It seems also that debating amillennialism, historicism, preterism, futurism, premillennialism are within the realm of speculative sacred theology. Amillennialism is the “modern” traditional view of the Church (and was the universal view of the Protestant revolters). premillennialism was held by many of the earliest Fathers, such as Irenaeus.

I personally believe in premillennialism with a literal thousand-year reign of Christ. I have read only that “premillennialism can not be safely taught by the Church” (I assume because of predictions of the end), but not that it is heresy or even heterodox, so I have assumed that there can be valid and faithful disagreement on the topic. I posted a question about “Is Premillennialism a Heresy?” in Ask an Apologist, and was never answered.

Note that premillennialism in its proper (traditional, Patristic) form is unlike the modern Protestant form that most think of, pioneered by John Nelson Darby and popularized by Scofield’s Reference King James Bible. It does not include “dispensationalism” (the view that Jews are still chosen of God and the promises made in the OT to the Jews applies to the modern state of Israel instead of the Church, such as a literal rebuilding of Ezekiel’s Temple), nor does it include “pre-tribulationism” or “mid-tribulationism”, where believers are caught up in to heaven (the rapture) before the tribulation, such as in Left Behind. (A good point against it, is, what is the point of the tribulation to try believers’ faith, if they’re all in heaven when it’s going on, and the earth is just a sort of thousand-year-long “pre-Hell” for the damned?) And it doesn’t include endless predictions of the exact date, as has been the vogue since the Millerites.
 
I could suggest some names, but the last time I did that the thread was quickly yanked from the forum…😊
 
Perhaps the more appropriate question would be (“Who’s the Whore of Babylon today?”)

Possibly the entire Godless Secular World?

The parable of the ten virgins and of the talents and the description of the last judgment comes to mind.

Matthew Chapter 25 drbo.org/chapter/47025.htm
[31] And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. [32] And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: [33] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. [34] Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. [35] For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:
Click to expand...
[36] Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. [37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
Click to expand...
[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
Click to expand...
[46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.
Click to expand...
 
I beginning to think that the Whore of Babylon is a student at Georgetown University. 😃
 
In biblical symbolism, a woman is a symbol for CHURCH. If we apply that to the “whore of Babylon” this church must be a false church because it is a whore, and also “full of names of blasphemy.”

This false church must also be a great church for it is called “the great whore,” pictured as ruling over many nations.

So, we have a great false church that wields a strong influence over many countries, perhaps meddling in their political affairs even to the point of controlling these nations.

This church is also, “that great city which reigneth over the kings of the earth.” So, this great false church is a great city as well and has ruled over the kings of this earth.

“And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH” (Rev. 17:5).

Finally, this church is “the mother of harlots” – a mother church having many daughter churches [also harlots like her] that came out of her.

Can we identify this church? Will some church rise in the future to fit the description?
 
the system that perpetuates mammon, the love of money is a possibility.
 
You folks do realize that ancient pagan Rome was not just a secular government, but also a religious one. Hint: they worshiped the goddess Roma. In the ancient world, all governments and countries were also “churches”, just as the assembly of all the people of Israel was a “church”.

In St. Victorinus’ Commentary on the Apocalypse, he’s very sure that the Roman Empire is being spoken of, to the point that he enumerates various emperors as part of the prophecy of the kings, and expects the Antichrist to be another Nero. All the sufferings and martyrdoms of the saints are blamed on the Roman Senate.

So in his estimation, the Senate and People of Rome (SPQR) is the woman (the goddess Roma) riding the beast.

There are a lot of other commentators that make different temporal applications of the text, but it’s all pretty much in the direction of condemning a hostile government. Babylon in Daniel and Isaiah, Tyre in Ezekiel 28, Rome, other powerful governments hostile to God’s people – they’re pretty much all the same thing.

Harlotry is idolatry in most OT Scriptures, and “mother of harlots” means “mother of idolaters.”
 
:o
onlyvoice said:
In biblical symbolism, a woman is a symbol for CHURCH. If we apply that to the “whore of Babylon” this church must be a false church because it is a whore, and also “full of names of blasphemy.”

This false church must also be a great church for it is called “the great whore,” pictured as ruling over many nations.

So, we have a great false church that wields a strong influence over many countries, perhaps meddling in their political affairs even to the point of controlling these nations.

This church is also, “that great city which reigneth over the kings of the earth.” So, this great false church is a great city as well and has ruled over the kings of this earth.

“And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH” (Rev. 17:5).

Finally, this church is “the mother of harlots” – a mother church having many daughter churches [also harlots like her] that came out of her.

Can we identify this church? Will some church rise in the future to fit the description?
Click to expand...
I agree with your conclusion but wonder where the idea that a woman is a symbol for a church comes from. I’ve never heard that before.
 
Does any of this even matter? The only time you can do ANYTHING whether for good or for evil is what little time YOU personally have on earth. When that time ends, it is YOUR end time. Period.

Every time I see a discussion like this I’m reminded of grade school, when ten minutes before the bell someone would start packing up their belongings. The rustling would cause others to pack up thinking the end of class was very near and soon the entire class would be all packed up and sit waiting for ten minutes. Ten minutes, by the way, that could’ve been used productively. Don’t waste time waiting for Jesus, he’s here. He’s hungry, he’s thirsty, he’s naked.

Don’t freak out. Are we at the end? Well, it’s hard to see how things could get much worse, but that doesn’t mean we need to paralyze ourselves. We need to do the same thing that Christians have been called to do for the last 2011 years. Don’t waste time, YOU don’t have much left. As for the end of the world? Only God knows, leave it up to him.

As long as you’ve got your ducks in a row, it won’t matter if the world ends tonight.
 
garysibio said:
:o

I agree with your conclusion but wonder where the idea that a woman is a symbol for a church comes from. I’ve never heard that before.
Click to expand...
You do realize he’s not-subtly calling the Most Holy Mother Church that? The answer to the rhetorical question, “Can we identify this church now?” from his post is clear; he only adds “the future” to soften the impact.
 
sorrowfulagony said:
I think the end might be near, honestly, since there is the prophecy of the popes (one more after this one) and there’s a Jewish mathematics movement which reveals many of modern times in Jewish scriptures…
Let’s look at these claims against us: seven hills, scarlet and purple, gold cup filled with wrath, drunk with blood of saints, in her was found the blood of all who had been slain on earth… okay: THAT LAST ONE makes me say: Wait a minute?! The Catholic Church is responsible for the deaths from the Assyrian Empire? From the Jihadist terrorists?

So, who could it be?
Click to expand...
Catholic Theology teaches that it was either Rome or Jerusalem. Protestants teach just about anything that they can dream up. However, we know that the beast of revelation was most likely Nero since in Hebrew his name added up to the number 666; and in some copies of revelation the number of the beast is 616, which is Nero’s name added up in Latin. This gives the story some context and should not be denied because of the coincidence between copies. The whore of Babylon has already fallen and teaching more leans toward Jerusalem as being Babylon since Rome didn’t fall until hundreds of years after revelation was written. But the possibility remains that Rome remains a possibility of being the whore. Remember, John said all these things would take time shortly and not thousands of years in the future. At the moment we are in the millenium of the reign of Christ–this is what the Church teaches. It is not a literal 1000 years but symbolic of a period of time where the Church is built up.

The child born to the women with the sun at her head and moon at her feet is Christ. So that puts a little perspective of just where in Revelation things are occuring; so anything that happens around the time where the child is born (who rules with a rod of iron) is fulfilled in or around the time of Christ–that is why it is thought that we are in the millenium of Christ reign, where the Church is built up.

Alot of Catholics will say that revelation is symbolic but that is because they have no knowledge and have never done a serious study on the book. It is literal to the point where you can actually understand that actual events are being described within the text. One of the reasons why it is believed that Jerusalem is referred to as Babylon is because of the hierarchies persecution and rejection of Christianity; and the eventual destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in 70 ad.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top