Who is the woman in Rev.12?

[brian_custer]

that would be the day

 

[guanophore]

I don’t know whether this was discussed in this forum.It appears that there is no unanimous conclusion about this.Some say it is Mary,some say it is the church.But since Rev.gives the picture of things ‘shortly to come’ (Rev 1-1),will the description of the women fleeing to wilderness etc. fit Mary as we belive that she is already in heaven as the queen of heaven and earth.

One of the qualities of apocalyptic (prophetic) writings is that the symbols can refer to many things simultaneously. This is call “polyvalent”. The Church has decreed that this passage does refer to Mary, but it can also refer to the Church, as the Church gives birth to the offspring of Christ in baptism. It may also refer to the nation of Israel, as “salvation is of the Jews”, and the Church is the remnant of Israel that believed in Christ.

If it is Mary,why then the woman is shown in a helpless, frightful,fleeing stage?

She is certainly not helpless, as God is her help. She, by herself, is no match for the Dragon, but God rescues her along with her offspring.

“My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden.
For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;
49 for he who is mighty has done great things for me,
and holy is his name.
50 And his mercy is on those who fear him
from generation to generation.
51 He has shown strength with his arm,
he has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts,
52 he has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree;
53 he has filled the hungry with good things,
and the rich he has sent empty away.
54 He has helped his servant Israel,
in remembrance of his mercy,
55 as he spoke to our fathers,
to Abraham and to his posterity for ever.” Luke 1

Mary testified that God is her saviour, and she is a lowly handmaid. She completely trusts in the Lord to take her up and protect her from evil.

Luke 1:38 And Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.”

Mary fled with Jesus and Joseph into Egypt. The text does not say she was “frightful”, though she may have been. Fear of evil is a natural human response.

 

[guanophore]

Oh no.I am talking about the description about her situation said in Rev.12

And what was it that made you think she did not trust God to protect her?

Yes,correct and glorious description about Mary.So nothing to do with the poor woman of Rev.12

So you do not believe that Mary fled into the wilderness (on the way to Egypt) to save her son, or that she was pursued by evil (Herod)?

"1 Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman, robed with the sun, standing on the moon, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

@joseie How does this depict a “poor woman”?
post:12:

5 The woman was delivered of a boy, the son who was to rule all the nations with an iron sceptre, and the child was taken straight up to God and to his throne,

@joseie If it was not Mary who gave birth to the boy who was to rule all the nations, then who was it?

14 but she was given a pair of the great eagle’s wings to fly away from the serpent into the desert

@joseie how does this verse describe a “poor woman” who was not rescued by God?

I don’t see any champion woman,but a helpless,crying,pathetic woman

Maybe you can explain how she is "helpless’ and “crying” and “pathetic”? Do you consider birth pangs to be “pathetic”?

If you say that what is really meant is just the opposite of what is written,well ,I surrender.

It seems that we just understand what is written differently. A person who trusts totally in God for salvation is may be “helpless, crying, and pathetic” when left to themselves, but if such a one places their trust in God they become a conquerer.

You are right that Mary suffered a great deal(Luke 2:35 and a sword will pierce through your own soul also that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed.") not only at the birth of her Son, but in the flight into Egypt, and eventually having to see her only Son die on the cross. But the point of the passage is that, no matter how hard the Dragon tries, He cannot thwart God’s protection of her.

How terrible will be the situation if a just delivered mother has to undergo the ordeal as described.

Don’t belittle Mary.

This is an odd thing to say, since you consider this image of her to be “helpless, crying, and pathetic.” Who is belittling the mother of our savior?

 

[brian_custer]

nice job, guanophore

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Don’t belittle Mary.

@brian_custer is not the one belittling Mary…

shudders says several Hail Marys

 

[joseie]

Good analysis,only one crucial point not touched.Was this the vision of things already happened or to vision of ‘things which must shortly come to pass’ ?

 

[Benadam]

The vision given to St. John is given to Him by the one in the vision who says I am the beginning and the end. The vision is the whole story from beginning to end. Its a vision of Heavenly things. Its the past the present and the end.

The Woman in rev 12 is man. Jesus is Son of Man. The good tree that can only bare good fruit. The 12 trees and their 12 fruit too.

 

[OsculeturMeOsculo]

I don’t see why it can’t be both. Like Ezekiel said (kind of but maybe I am misreading it) Mother like daughter. Mary is Mother of the Church.

 

[joseie]

The view that the vision is the whole story from beginning to end etc. won’t survive in view of the clear-cut verses in Rev.1-1.They are clearly of things which are yet to happen.

 

[Benadam]

The view that the vision is the whole story from beginning to end etc. won’t survive in view of the clear-cut verses in Rev.1-1.They are clearly of things which are yet to happen.

That’s what I said. I just added to that everything that has happened and is happening.

 

[joseie]

A grave addition !You can’t add what already happened when it is all about future things and are words of prophesy(Rev1-2)

 

[aspiringthomist]

The Maddona, Queen of our Holy Catholic Church

 

[Benadam]

I don’t see why it can’t be both. Like Ezekiel said (kind of but maybe I am misreading it) Mother like daughter. Mary is Mother of the Church.

Just as the Old Covenant is fulfilled in the New The former Woman, Eve/Sarah is fulfilled in the New Woman Mary. Eve is the former archtype of Woman Mary is the archetype of New Woman.

She is crowned with all the holy 12’s. Patriarch’s, Tribes, Apostles,and the twelve fruits of the twelve trees in the City of God.

Adam/ Eve.—>Seth -->son of Eve first born in the image of his father =, son of man/Adam---->.12 Patriarch’s -->… Sarah—> 12 tribes---->fulfilled in the New Woman Mary

God,/Mary —>Jesus—> son of Mary first born in the image of His Father/Flesh of her flesh bone of her bone=Body of Christ---->Jesus---->Cross/ side / rib=Woman/Church/Body of Christ -.—> 12 Apostles—>New Jerusalem 12 trees and fruit

 

[Benadam]

Clothed in the Sun= the eternal light of life with her Divine Son.(Sun=changeless light)
Standing on the moon= is not subject to change. (moon=light that changes)

Crown of 12 stars. all the holy 12’s are her offspring.

Clothed+ sun= A soul in Glory. Standing on the moon = a body that isn’t subject to change. Symbolizes the Assumption of Mary.

 

[joseie]

If it is the Mary in glory after assumption,how come that she then delivered and fled to wilderness?

 

[OsculeturMeOsculo]

Maybe it is a reference about the Flight to Egypt?

 

[Benadam]

She is the Mother of the of the male child who will rule with an iron rod. Taken up immediately means Her Son is conceived face to face with God in the beginning and taken up in the end in His Resurrection. Taken up to the throne of God doesn’t mean He is not physically present on earth with her as a child but is a child who is a human in Glory. He hid His Glory but let it be seen at the Transfiguration.Remember Moses face to face with God? His face would glow?

She fled into the wilderness when the dragon tried to kill her offspring as soon as He is born through Herod, Jesus calls the Church ‘me’ “why do you persecute me” He said to Paul. so when it say’s the Dragon went off to kill the rest of her offspring, the Church are her offspring and at the same time Mary since the Body of Christ is bone of her bone flesh of her flesh…She is the first Christian and perfect model of the Church and model of a spotless bride.

You are thinking like a land lover: Land locked. The book of Revelation is a vision of heavenly reality. It is a vision that is not bound by time and History but contain’s all of history and all time. A symbol like the dragon has many many manifestations in human history doing what is described in the vision… As do all the symbols in this vision. They are symbols of what happened in the garden, what’s happened throughout history and the ultimate end of this present heaven and earth.

 

[Benadam]

The revelator John the beloved who Jesus gave His Mother to is symbolized as eagle wings. The flight into the wilderness can be seen as being taken care of by john who removed her from the hostility of persecution… The Church is also fed by His Gospel and Revelation of heaven as the dragon tries to drown her in water. Water could be the heresies and persecutions and the earth that opens it’s mouth is the earth receiving the blood of martyrs like it did for the first beheaded ( and he is a Patriarch)for his witness to Christ. That is Abel. Read what God said to Cain when confronted about Abel’s death.

Eve is implicated. The mother of harlots is signified in that on her hands is all the blood ever shed on earth. Abel’s blood was all the blood ever shed on earth when Cain killed him.

 

[guanophore]

Good analysis,only one crucial point not touched.Was this the vision of things already happened or to vision of ‘things which must shortly come to pass’ ?

This is an important question, as apocalyptic literature reflects events that occur outside the space/time continuum. For that reason, there may be events that have already occurred, events that are presently occurring, and events that have not occurred yet.

There is also the issue that what “must shortly come to pass” for God can be a thousand years for us!

The view that the vision is the whole story from beginning to end etc. won’t survive in view of the clear-cut verses in Rev.1-1.They are clearly of things which are yet to happen.

Are you saying that a story that goes from “beginning to end” cannot include things that have not yet happened?!

Besides, some of those events may have already happened for John. For example, he may be one of those under the altar asking God when there will be justice for those who persecute the Church.

You can’t add what already happened when it is all about future things and are words of prophesy(Rev1-2)

Maybe you are just unable to understand a story being told that includes things in past, present and future? Perhaps your parents never read to you a story that ended “everyone lived happily ever after”?

If it is the Mary in glory after assumption,how come that she then delivered and fled to wilderness?

Because John is seeing both what is present and what is past at the same time.

Do you not believe that Mary fled into the wilderness (to travel to Egypt) after she gave birth?

 

[joseie]

Thank you very much for the detailed replies.Helped to clear my doubts though not fully as the issue -whether the vision in Chapter12 of the Rev.is about the things already happened or is about the things which are yet to happen - still appears not free from doubt.