Who is the woman in Rev.12?

[guanophore]

Helped to clear my doubts though not fully as the issue -whether the vision in Chapter12 of the Rev.is about the things already happened or is about the things which are yet to happen - still appears not free from doubt.

You bring an interesting point. When reading apocalyptic literature, we can not always be sure if the events described are in our past, present, or future, since these don’t exist from God’s point of view (he is in all simultaneously). I think the salient point is not to doubt the Author, who is trying to communicate something important to us. If we are unclear about the meaning, we continue to study, and pray, and trust that everything we need to know will be made clear to us in due time.

 

[joseie]

Ok

 

[Francis]

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.the Word of God is for past present and future

 

[petra22]

She is certainly not helpless, as God is her help. She, by herself, is no match for the Dragon, but God rescues her along with her offspring.

And this is just why we as Catholics don’t worship Mary but have the deepest respect for her… She is nothing without God… but she is Blessed by God…

 

[petra22]

The book of Revelation is a vision of heavenly reality. It is a vision that is not bound by time and History but contain’s all of history and all time.

Oh, yes! This!

 

[Mintaka]

Re: “The vision is the whole story from beginning to end”

Well, it is. But the structure isn’t quite that simple!

The Book of Revelation is structured so that things happen, and then the narrative backs up and tells about the same events in a different way. This is called “recapitulation,” and it’s a literary technique that ancient people understand. (In fact, the early Christian commentaries on Revelation spend a lot of time explaining the pattern of recapitulation.)

The structure gets even more complicated when you consider all the OT references in Revelation (including a lot of quotes specifically from the Septuagint), which is how St. John points out a lot of connections between his vision and the teaching tradition of the Church and Israel.

Re: labor, it’s pretty common in our Church’s tradition to compare women in labor to men going into battle.

 

[rose321]

You bring an interesting point. When reading apocalyptic literature, we can not always be sure if the events described are in our past, present, or future, since these don’t exist from God’s point of view (he is in all simultaneously). I think the salient point is not to doubt the Author, who is trying to communicate something important to us. If we are unclear about the meaning, we continue to study, and pray, and trust that everything we need to know will be made clear to us in due time.

Respectfully opinion only and in pondering on this topic title in questioning, examining and search through OT asking>>

Who> is the author of Rev 12, is it he not a Jew? John>> a Hebrew Israelite who comes from which Tribe?

Whom>>> is the author addressing, in the Book of Rev, being John is also a Hebrew Israelite > being held in bondage himself, being greatly persecuted by his enemies > against his own people>their Nation?

How > does our Heavenly Father address his chosen > Nation Israel, within the OT ( can give verses)?

As written, God does he not refer to Nation of Israel >>as a being >singular?
Written, God calls Israel > a her?
Written, does God call>> Israel>>his bride?
Written does God not call >> himself a husband to>>>>Israel (her)?
Written in OT>>Have I not been a husband to you ( Israel?) in Jeremiah 31:31-34?

Whom is John writing to and addressing?
Who are the ones who are being persecuted in John time, era around 90-100 Ad?

Where is John writing this from?
Is John being held in bondage, prison by his own enemies when he writes Rev 12?
Who are John’s and the Israelites enemies at this time of great persecution?
At this time, is there not a massive Jewish disporia >taking place, Jews are fleeing when John is writing this?

John being an Apostle a Hebrew Israelite Jew, which his Holy Scriptures were the OT right?

Those whom John is writing to would >>know>>what John is saying and whom he is referring to would they not?

Is it not written when you see me coming with a new Jerusalem and a new earth?
God’s renewed>>Covenant Promise, the prophecy > spoken by and given by the > Prophet Jeremiah 31:31-34 >come to pass yet?
Has man made their sword into plow shares yet?
Do >>all>>know>>him today yet?
Are we still being taught?

Pondering
Did Jesus not call himself > our bridegroom and all who believe in his Spoken Word, live by>>he calls them> his Bride?

Symbolism being used in Rev 12?

Jesus seems to use what is physical finite or nature itself >agriculture >what we know only >to teach us about what is>> Infinite > invisible Spiritual matters, does he not?

Example
Olive Tree?
Tree of Life?
Fig tree?
Branch? Vine? Root? Twig?
Seed, plant in fertile ground?
Fruits? You will know them by their fruits?
I am the vine you are the branch?
I am the Door?
I am the Gate?
Coin? worship not money, image idolatry?
You will know them by their fruits?

Earthly Natural Food >nourishes our physical flesh > but does Jesus not teach us >What nourishes our Spirit within?

 

[joseie]

I am tempted to write again about the time aspect of the vision,that is ,whether what is seen in the vision incudes some scenes( or its symbolic versions )of what already happened.There is no doubt or dispute about the fact that, if we leave chapter 12,all the visions are of things yet to happen as mentioned in the very beginning of the Rev.It appears that only because the women in ch 12 is taken as Mary,we are constrained to say (gainst the spirit of 1-1) that the whole Rev.covers the story from beginning to end,God does not have any time limits ;,past,present,future etc are same to God ,it is not given in the chronological order etc…

 

[guanophore]

are constrained to say …that the whole Rev.covers the story from beginning to end,God does not have any time limits ;,past,present,future etc are same to God ,it is not given in the chronological order etc…

I think you are creating a false dichotomy here. The fact that the Revelation contains the whole story from beginning to end has nothing to do with it being presented in chronological order. But that is part of what makes it so hard to read and understand.

The Ark is a very ancient symbol, but Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant is present for the writer. In the text the two are together, though in chronological time separated by millennia.

 

[Francis]

Revelation 12 is about Mother Mary, St John is speaking of the women of gen 3:15 and the Catholic Church in a broader sense

1 Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
Sirach 16:27 He arranged his works in an eternal order, and their dominion for all generations; they neither hunger nor grow weary, and they do not cease from their labors.

Revelation 11:19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

Revelation 12:1-2 A great portent appeared in heaven: a woman (Mother Mary) clothed with the sun (Glory Wisdom 7:26 For she (Mother Mary) is a reflection of eternal light=Jesus Psalm 45:9 daughters of kings are among your ladies of honor;at your(Jesus) right hand stands the queen(Mary) in gold of Ophir.

John 8:12 Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness but will have the light of life.”, a spotless mirror of the working of God, and an image of his goodness.), with the moon under her feet (Power given to Her in the Church By Jesus on the Cross the last Treasure and the most important before his death only then he could finishes the will of God ), and on her head a crown of twelve stars (12 Apostles and the 12 Tribes of Israel) (Queen of Heaven also Co -redeemer).

Revelation 12:14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle=(ST John) that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15 The serpent poured water=(Word of God, false doctrines as some protestants does especial jw,pentecostal,) like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with the flood. 16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth=(Catholic and all those who honor Her and respect Her) opened its mouth and swallowed the river which the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17 Then the dragon was angry with the woman(Mother Mary ), and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring= (Catholic and other who honor Mother Mary , on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

Galatians 4:26 But the other woman corresponds to the Jerusalem above; she is free (from sin)and she is our mother ( MARY).

Sirach 24:9 Before the ages, in the beginning, he created me (Mother Mary),
and for all the ages I shall not cease to be.
10 In the holy tent I ministered before him,
and so I was established in Zion.
11 Thus in the beloved city he gave me a resting place,
and in Jerusalem was my domain.Revelation 21:10 And in the spirit he carried me away to a great, high mountain and showed me the holy city Jerusalem =(Mary) coming down out of heaven from God.
Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the bride (Mary) say, “Come.”
And let everyone who hears say, “Come.”
And let everyone who is thirsty come.
Let anyone who wishes take the water of life as a gift.

 

[Augustinian]

I don’t know whether this was discussed in this forum.It appears that there is no unanimous conclusion about this.

When you are talking about prophetic scriptures like Rev 12, there are often multiple meanings

 

[joseie]

Agreed that a prophecy can have many meanings.But it can’t surely be something already happened! Because in that case it is not a prophecy at all!

 

[Mintaka]

A prophecy is not “a prediction of the future.” A prophecy is a message from God.

God’s messages in the Bible usually include a lot of stuff about the past. (Heck, the Bible is a message from God, and a good chunk of the Bible is history books, or explanations of history!) One of the most common components of prophecy is God saying, “Remember when I did this? Remember how I saved your fathers back when? Remember how I punished Israel the last time they did bad things? Remember the good things I said you should do?”

The Hebrew word for prophet can mean “seer, one who sees,” but it can also mean “spokesperson, ambassador.” This goes along with the classic way to introduce a prophecy: “Thus says the Lord.” Ambassadors from kings would start out reading royal messages by saying, “Thus says Blahblah, King of X and Y.”

The Greek word, prophetes, means “interpreter of the will of the gods.”

So my point is that prophecies could be about things in the past, things in the present, or things in the future. They can be absolute or conditional. They are messages from God about whatever He wants to tell us.

 

[joseie]

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[Agathon]

How do those who say Mary is the woman in Revelations 12 deal with the woman having labor pains when Catholic tradition says the opposite about Mary’s pregnancy?

 

[Aulef]

Many Church scholars say it is the Church itself and/or Our Lady. It makes sense. The teachings derived from these conclusions fit the Magisterium.

I personally believe it literally is our natural mother, Eve, after she was expelled from Eden (Heaven) and started wandering the desert (our world). The serpent (satan) kept persecuting the Woman (Eve) and her seed after the Fall. Her seed in this case is the line of Seth, which was the children of God, and most of them were persecuted and corrupted by satan and his followers.

 

[rose321]

Sirach 24:9 Before the ages, in the beginning, he created me (Mother Mary),
and for all the ages I shall not cease to be.

Respectfully opinion only and searching out many experts, scholars etc

Sirach 24:9 …Before the ages, in the beginning he created me ( Wisdom?
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God?

Exodus 4:22>Thou Israel was his >>first born son, Israel singular? A Nation?

St Paul also refers to God >>first born begotten son>>Jesus> singular

and for all the ages I shall not cease to be> Wisdom?

Before the ages is >>equal> to in the begining>>

Sirach 24:8 speaks of Wisdom is said to to have her tent among ancient Israel?

In the beginning>>> is used many times in NT by Matthew, St Paul, in Rev >>Luke etc refers to Jesus>>his Word was in the beginning ?

The Word was in the beginning of Events>>known to us as Jesus of Nazareth Matt 1:16 and John 1:1 Who is from the beginning…

Wisdom is unfading.

Just an opinion trying to stay in context of all that is written, like Isaiah taught us how to read Scripture line, upon line, line upon line, pretext upon pretext which also flows with all being said from beginning to end of the bible. Peace

 

[guanophore]

Agreed that a prophecy can have many meanings.But it can’t surely be something already happened! Because in that case it is not a prophecy at all!

I think your definition of apocalyptic/prophetic literature is what needs tweaking here, joseie. Prophesy is not just telling the future. It is speaking God’s truth into the present. There are many examples of this in Scripture, where the prophets spoke the Word of God into current events. A prophetic word reframes events so that they are seen from God’s point of view. This is why some of the events described in Revelation have already occurred, some are in the process of occurring, and some have yet to occur.

If you wish to understand the Scriptures, then you must read them in context. The context of the biblical understanding of prophesy cannot be found in a modern Webster dictionary. Although this definition you have pasted here (without a source, I notice) is one aspect of prophesy,it is not the only one.

The definition given here in the Catholic Encyclopedia

[> to present hidden things which cannot be known by the natural light of reason](http:// to present hidden things which cannot be known by the natural light of reason) is a good example of the prophetic gift at work.

Revelation, as other prophetic works, describe current and past events from God’s point of view. The letter of Jude is almost entirely this type of expression.

How do those who say Mary is the woman in Revelations 12 deal with the woman having labor pains when Catholic tradition says the opposite about Mary’s pregnancy?

This is a very good question, but I think the labor pains need to be understood spiritually. Paul writes about these labor pains:

Romans 8:19 & 23
19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God…22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning in travail together until now; 23 and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Because of what Paul says here, the Woman can also be an image of Israel, longing to give birth to the salvation of the world, and of the Church, giving birth to those who are adopted as sons. These are spiritual kinds of birth pangs.

 

[joseie]

But in view of the clear-cut assertion in Rev.1-1 that the scenes/visions described is of things shortly come into pass,can it be of past?

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to make known to his servants the things which must shortly come to pass: and signified, sending by his angel to his servant John,”

Also except for chapter 12,anywhere else a past scene/vision is described?

 

[guanophore]

But in view of the clear-cut assertion in Rev.1-1 that the scenes/visions described is of things shortly come into pass,can it be of past?

Of course! What is to come is based upon what has already occurred, and what is occurring now.

The vision of Christ in Chapter 1 is a present tense vision - not future.

The letters to the Churches in Chapters 2 & 3 are present tense, based upon what has occurred in the recent past. It is clear by the language in these letters that they reference past events.

“‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear evil men but have tested those who call themselves apostles but are not, and found them to be false;… 4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first.

past tense

All these letters are referencing past actions.