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rr1213
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How does it differ? And if it differs, how does it matter if the Scriptures are the Word of God? In any event, they had authoritative and inspired written scripture, Old Testament and New, on which to rely.
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jemfinch
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The Bible is a set of works that are authoritatively defined to be Scripture. Scripture is writing that is theopneustos. The difference is in the “collection” and hte “authoritatively defined.”
Until Scripture is collected into an authoritatively defined Bible, anyone is free to deny its Scriptural nature. Prior to the canonization of the Bible, anyone could say, “I don’t think James is Scripture,” and claim Sola Fide just as Martin Luther did. There’s a huge difference between Scripture that is Scripture ontologically, and Scripture that is authortatively defined to be Scripture. The latter has much more usefulness.
No, prior to canonization, they didn’t have anything authoritatively defined to be Scripture. They had writings, and some of them (most of them) thought those writings were Scripture, but these people would have had no recourse if others came along, and in the name of “historical criticism” claimed that the wrtiings they had were not Scripture.
Scripture is great, but it’s hard to apply when you can’t be sure what exactly it is. Just because a writing claims to be written by Peter doesn’t mean it actually was; and the Gospels, they didn’t even claim authorship! What was there to prevent a second- or third-century Christian (or a Protestant today) from denying that Matthew, Mark, and Luke are Scripture?
Jeremy
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rr1213
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(test posting…having some problems reading this thread for some reason)
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jemfinch
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JOE_OBERR
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Guardian, this is in response to your original post on Oct 6.
I agree Catholics are quite ignorant on SS but non-Cath are even more as they reject Apostolic Tradition and the magisterium of the church. Without those two components then it is every man for himself, so to speak. Which is why Jesus didn’t tell the apostles to write & hand out bibles to spread the gospel.
He told the apostles to preach the gospeld & baptize those who believed. If they didn’t believe they would be condemned. In other words, christianity & the gospel as preached by Sts Paul, Peter, John et al is not found in the bible. No book of the NT claims to have a summary of what St Paul et al preached. So if one want to find out what the preached gospel is, he has to go to the church that Jesus founded (the pillar and foundation of truth).
When one reads the writings of the early christians who were taught by the apostles and the doctrine reflected in their writings, one can see the conformity, especially in regard to Peter’s primacy, to only one church today - the Catholic Church.
That’s why Jesus did not say to read SS to derive the truth of the gospel. He told us to listen to his Church. SS is not a catechism, it is a narrative of salvation history which wasn’t even codified until approx 392 AD, by the Catholic Church. Christianity does not come from one’s personal guesswork on bible verses, but by listening to his church.
If it was so critical/crucial to “know the bible”, why didn’t God give it to us right after calvary? Were all the believers for the first 360 years ignorant of the gospel??? One reason is that even if he had, man’s pride is so great that most of us would have fallen to the trap of thinking that MY interpretation of SS is correct, not yours - the tower of Babel. Which is why Jesus established a church to proclaim his gospel of redemption from sin, the creed, sacraments, commandments and prayer.
SS is great as a witness to the teachings of the gospel/church, but the teachings are not derived from SS, they are derived from the gospel preached by the apostles and further clarified by deeper penetrations made by the popes through the ages. Non-Cath work off the false premise that SS is THE source of christian doctrine & practice thus leaving them in total confusion (20,000 different denominations & counting).
That’s why we must have faith in Jesus & believe everything he said, especially in regard to Peter’s primacy, “I will build my church…” We can’t pick & choose to believe what Jesus said.
Joe.
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rr1213
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Ok, this is getting off of the topic of the thread, but it is a common misconception by Catholics of Protestants that gets really annoying after hearing it for the hundredth time. Are there 20,000 or 30,000 or __,000 Protestant denominations? Who knows. These numbers make sense only if you are willing to stretch the definition of “denomination” to mean “any person or group of persons who has a view of doctrine different from the Catholic Church”. Of course, if that is the definition you have plenty of denominations within the Catholic Church itself.
I can’t speak about other countries, but the lay of the land in the USA from a Protestant viewpoint reveals nothing even close to 20,000 denominations. Pick up your phone book…I don’t care where you live in the US…look under Churches and see how many denominations are listed. There are likely to be only 20 or 30…still, even in those places where there are hundreds the degree of magnitude is enormously different from the number bandied about by Catholic apologists.
Moreover, most Protestants belong to a much smaller universe of denominations. You can find the vast majority of Protestants in the US within the following denominations: Methodists, Baptists, Lutherans, Churches of Christ, Assemblies of God, Nazarene, Episcopal, Pentacostal and non-denominational churches. Are there others? Sure, lots of them, but the VAST majority of folks belong to these groups. Think of it this way, if there are 1000 protestants in a particular town and 950 belong to one church and the remaining 50 belong to 50 different churches, how accurate is it to say that the protestants are divided among 51 churches in that town? It may be technically accurate, but it is misleading. Speaking to all Catholic apologists, do you want to be misleading to make your point?
Sorry about the rant but this stuff gets on me as much as people posting that Catholics “worship Mary” gets on you. Understand now, perhaps?
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JOE_OBERR
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rr1213, I didn’t say 20,000 U.S. denominations. This is an approximate worldwide number from a protestant editor of the Oxford World Christian Encyclopedia as well as a source from the United Nations (please see below).
My point is not precise numbers as much to point out that it is not that important, in one sense, to know SS. Since SS does not interpret itself nor force its explanation on anyone, nor is it clear on any point of doctrine, it is quite useless if used to determine christian doctrine and practice. That has to be determined extra-biblically, i.e., via the teachings and traditions of the church Jesus founded.
As a witness to the teachings of the Cath church, or to view salvation history, how God has intervened to save us and to learn about the person of Jesus, it is unparalleled.
bringyou.to/apologetics/a120.htm
"According to the Dictionary of Christianity in America [Protestant] (Downers Grove, IL: Intervarsity Press, 1990): “As of 1980 David B. Barrett identified 20,800 Christian denominations worldwide . . .” (“Denominationalism,” page 351). Barrett “classified them into seven major blocs and 156 ecclesiastical traditions.” This is from the Oxford World Christian Encyclopedia (1982) of which he is the editor.
Also, according to the United Nations statistics there were over 23,000 competing and often contradictory denominations worldwide (World Census of Religious Activities ). This was cited in Frank Schaeffer’s book Dancing Alone (Brookline, MA: Holy Cross Press, 1994), page 4. Schaeffer is Orthodox.
The 1999 Encyclopedia of Christianity has this to say: “In 1985 David Barrett could count 22,150 distinct denominations worldwide.” (edited by E. Fahlbusch, et al., Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1999, vol. 1, p. 800, s.v. “Denomination”). Barrett is the statistical editor. Again citing the Oxford World Christian Encyclopedia (1982): “. . . a projected 22,190 by 1985 . . . The present net increase is 270 denominations each year (five new ones a week).” (pages 15-18)
The definition Barrett worked with was that a denomination was “an organized Christian Church or tradition or religious group or community of believers or aggregate of worship centers or congregations, usually within a specific country, whose component congregations and members are called by the same name in different areas, regarding themselves as an autonomous Christian church distinct from other denominations, churches and traditions.”"
Joe
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Michael_Francis
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This thread has now drifted from it original topic and is closed.
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