Who loves anime here?

[sidetrack]

Wow. Thanks for commenting! I can’t play the pot to the kettle, but man, that’s a long post. Could take a while to digest it all.

Dragonball was highly popular, yes, but as we all know popular manga series are a blessing for its fans while being a virtual Hell for its creators. I mean, it was published in Weekly Shonen Jump (home to many other series from the past and present like Naruto, One Piece, Yu-Gi-Oh, Shaman King, Bleach, Death Note, Hikaru no Go, I’s, Bobobobo-Bobobo, Hell Teacher Nūbē, Kochira Katsushika-ku Kameari Kōen Mae Hashutsujo, Sket Dance, Eyeshield 21, The Prince of Tennis, Fist of the North Star, Nurarihyon no Mago, Rurouni Kenshin, Yu Yu Hakusho, Slam Dunk, Gintama, etc.). Note the word Weekly in there.

Manga-ka who publish their works in weekly anthologies like Weekly Jump literally live such painfully perpetually busy lives that they can only take a break from manual labor during certain holidays (when the magazines themselves take a rest from publication; i.e. New Year). Has anyone of you ever had any experience writing a comic strip? That’s the same task manga-ka in weekly magazines have to face: they (and their assistants) have to think of and draw an average of 20 or more page’s worth of strips - all equivalent to a single chapter - and get it to their editor for proofreading and further corrections and have it published when everything is sorted out within the space of a single week, rinse and repeat. The advent of digital software have made things a lot easier, but back in the old days when one relied only on ink, pen, screentone, and one’s own hands and ingenuity to make a strip…yeah. (Hey, I should know, that’s exactly what I’m studying right now. )

We can’t blame Toriyama: he had worked on Dragonball for about eleven years (1984-1995). The work apparently took such a toll on him that he actually quit making long-running series in Dragonball’s wake.

I personally think he can still get blame.He could have at least trimmed out stuff and set up much better parameters and explanations 4 the whole series.I’m also aware of how magazines like Jump work with how’ll they’ll drop an anvil on a series if popularity drops.I say that he at least owes an *EXTENSIVE offical explantion/acknowlegdement of the plot-holes and mistakes tof the DB series esp.since it’s been yrs since the series ended.

 

[sidetrack]

The cancellation of Double Arts was pretty odd, yeah: a lot of people in the internet have asked (and are asking) why it was cancelled, but no definite answer as of yet. Of course, there are other factors in a series being cancelled than just lack of popularity, and quite a number of people do think that Double Arts was quite good enough.

BTW, here are the usual signs of a series being cancelled:

1.) Highly-contrived, ‘unnatural’ endings. This is because: (1) it is the management who decides whether and when to ax a series - the creator has no choice but to comply; (2) the pressure could lead the creators to lose their motivation and adopt a “okay fine, let’s end this as fast as we can” mentality, which of course leads to a decrease in quality, compounded by the fact that the story has to be finished no matter what within a given number of pages.
2.) Unresolved plot points. Very often, the slapdash nature of a concluding series (cf. above) could even lead to plot holes and contradictions.
3.) Whereas a series’ ending would normally be announced (something to the effect of “next week is the final chapter,” etc.), axed series do not, which adds to the ‘ending abruptly’ feeling. In fact, it would almost seem that the management no longer cares about it but just continues to publish it as courtesy to give a ‘proper’ closure.
4.) Some series might end with the words “End of Part 1,” (第一部 完) only in this case, there is almost always no Part 2 in sight.

There are times when a series’ cancellation is brought about by factors such as trouble between the management and a creator. In such cases, what usually happens is:

1.) The series will invariably end abruptly. The creator will not be even given time to finish, the words “thank you very much for reading” (ご愛読ありがとうございました) or something along those lines will just be tacked on at the end.
2.) The series will suddenly disappear, with an ‘official announcement’ from the management appearing on a later issue or on the magazine’s website.
3.) The series will still be listed in the table of contents, but another work (usually the entries in a manga competition hosted by the same magazine; in Jump’s case, this would be either the Tezuka Award or the Akatsuka Award) in place of the series in question will be published as filler.
4.) The worst-case scenario involves a damnatio memoriae of sorts: the series would be gone with no word whatsoever from the management, as if it didn’t even exist.

He some of those.I’ll get back hopely soon 2 you and LostWanderer on this.I’ve been busy these past few days.…but give me time 2 discuss this

 

[Kit15]

Out of curiosity, is anyone here attending Otakon in a few weeks?

 

[patrick457]

I personally think he can still get blame.He could have at least trimmed out stuff and set up much better parameters and explanations 4 the whole series.I’m also aware of how magazines like Jump work with how’ll they’ll drop an anvil on a series if popularity drops.I say that he at least owes an *EXTENSIVE offical explantion/acknowlegdement of the plot-holes and mistakes tof the DB series esp.since it’s been yrs since the series ended.

Well, to play the Devil’s advocate again:

It would be worth remembering that Toriyama originally intended Dragonball to be a very loose, light-hearted homage/parody of Journey to the West (one of countless others), but it soon turned into an action-oriented battle series, partly due to the fact that he pretty much made things up as he went along. (This explains the plot holes and whatnot.)

A series changing course midway isn’t too strange a phenomenon BRW. I mean Yu-Gi-Oh! was originally a series about different games and toys in general before Duel Monsters (originally Magic and Wizards…hmm…) took center stage: heck, the title means “king of games”! Kazuki Takahashi decided to make it all about card games because of the positive reader feedback.

Now I do think, it would be nice if Toriyama does issue some statement about the plot holes etc., sure, but I’m not holding my breath for it. I mean, he himself admits that he is not the type who will thoroughly develop a story; rather he actually enjoys the thrill of being ‘free’ in making things on the spot. So IMHO he probably doesn’t care much about the plot holes or whatnot. (There’s your answer - probably.) In fact at the very first his idea for Goku was only that he was an alien known as a Saiyan who can transform into a giant monkey!

P.S. The story of how Dragonball came to be is actually pretty interesting in itself. Faced with a lack of further ideas, Toriyama wanted to end the series he was currently working on, Dr. Slump. He was told by the management that he needed to come up with a new series three months after Dr. Slump ends. For his new series, he originally intended to expand further on two of his (well-received) one-shot mangas, Dragon Boy and The Adventures of Tongpoo, adding to it Journey to the West, Nansō Satomi Hakkenden (whence comes the idea of collecting balls), and Kung Fu movies, specifically Bruce Lee’s Enter the Dragon (the Dragon in Dragonball derives from here) during the brainstorming stage.

Orignally, Toriyama intended to do a straight Journey to the West parody in his first draft. Upon receiving a not-so-favorable reaction from his editor, he worked on two further drafts, the last of which was finally accepted. In this third draft, only a handful of elements from the first remained (the main character’s name and design, a few episodes and items).

The interesting thing here is, at first Dragonball did not have much popularity: at one point it actually kept sliding down the ratings that it was close to rock bottom. The editor attributed to the fact that the main character was too “mundane” to be popular, whereupon Toriyama added several characters like Master Roshi and Krillin and introduced various concepts such as the World Martial Arts Tournament (Tenka’ichi-budōkai). It was after these additions were made that Dragonball began to gain the massive popularity it enjoys.

As you probably know, Toriyama intended to finish the story at various points (first during the Piccolo Jr. Saga), but the huge popularity that his series has garnered within Japan and then overseas forced him to continue: ending the series literally meant huge losses for Shueisha (the company which publishes Weekly Jump) and other companies involved like Bandai, Fuji TV, and Toei Animation. To the point that when Toriyama intended to finish for real, meetings between the top brass of the various companies and management decisions concerning the future have had to be made.

 

[patrick457]

Oh yeah, and for one more anecdote.

Throughout the ten-and-a-half years he was making Dragonball Toriyama worked with three editors. The first (up to the end of the 23rd Martial Arts Tournament) was Kazuhiko Torishima (鳥嶋和彦), who had worked with Toriyama since Dr. Slump. He (in)famously wanted Dragonball to be a romantic comedy - to Toriyama’s protests and intended to delay Goku’s growth into an adult in-story. He is also reputed to have spoken with Toriyama over the phone to criticize the Androids’ character designs: “an old man, a fatso” and “[a couple of] brats.” He was no longer Toriyama’s editor at this point, but still he called up.

Torishima’s successor was Yū Kondō (近藤裕 Kondō Yū), who originally worked in shōjo magazines and thus, always seemed to keep in mind female readers. He worked with Toriyama from the Raditz Saga up to Perfect Cell’s appearance. He criticized Cell’s design: “It’s ugly. He’ll transform, won’t he?” He also said that Cell’s second form “looks like an idiot” and was very keen to get the second form over with and introduce Perfect Cell. He was probably the strictest of the three: at one time, he even made Toriyama redraw a illustration which took him quite some time to finish (he painted those dragon scales one-by-one!), all because - according to him - it lacks impact.

The third editor is Fuyuto Takeda (武田冬門 Takeda Fuyuto), relatively lenient compared to the former two. He was the reason for Hercule’s (Mr. Satan) popping up now and again: he loved the character that Toriyama decided to upgrade him from a one-shot appearance.

There was actually an urban legend which states that King Piccolo, Freeza and Majin Buu were modeled on these three respectively, but to date all Toriyama has said about it is that this wasn’t a conscious decision.

 

[CesarAugustus]

The thing with Lucky Star is that it is too cliche. o:

Also, is it me or did Konata really promote lolicon?

Because the physical aspect of the character?

I watched one or two episodes. I didn’t find it so great. I prefer Nichijou! so many laughs and good moments last year!

Blessings!

 

[MrSylvester]

Guys, about Dragon Ball… I myself am not a fan and don’t care about it at all but remember, without it we wouldn’t have Bleach, Naruto or Yu yu Kakusho which I hear is really good because Dragonball is the origin of many shonen cliches and tropes. Today it seems cliched but in reality, it codified or originated many tropes and ideas. The same for Sailor Moon and the Magical Girl genre. The same with Watchmen in regards comic books and Seinfield to comedy. Hell, the same for Evangelion and Gundam to giant robots. When you think of giant robots today, your more likely to think about a mobile suit, an Eva or a Megazord than about Jeeg or Mazinger, just as you’re more likely to think about Sailor Moon or Madoka Magica when the term magical girl is brought up.

I admire Dragonball. It shouldn’t be judged by the standards of our times because during the 90’s and the 80’s, Dragonball was seen as one of the best things ever and for that time, I’d agree. The story and writing is dated today yes (so is Bleach’s) but overall, praise be to Dragonball.

 

[ironchapman]

Don’t have a lot of time, but I would like to post one bit of good news: Hayate the Combat Butler is getting a new TV series this Fall!

 

[MrSylvester]

Don’t have a lot of time, but I would like to post one bit of good news: Hayate the Combat Butler is getting a new TV series this Fall!

I know right! I read it off Shonen Sunday! However, I hear its a new original story although ntoe that there is a lot of material that goes between the current last episode of seaosn 2 to the end of the world arc (the flashback arc ebtween Hayate and A-Tan). Can’t wait!

I think I’m going to watch Samurai Champloo and Cowboy Bebop before I watch anymore of FullMetal Panic and Monster. They look really good and I need to watch another anime that I can consider one of the best of the best ever made.

 

[patrick457]

Guys, about Dragon Ball… I myself am not a fan and don’t care about it at all but remember, without it we wouldn’t have Bleach, Naruto or Yu yu Kakusho which I hear is really good because Dragonball is the origin of many shonen cliches and tropes. Today it seems cliched but in reality, it codified or originated many tropes and ideas. The same for Sailor Moon and the Magical Girl genre. The same with Watchmen in regards comic books and Seinfield to comedy. Hell, the same for Evangelion and Gundam to giant robots. When you think of giant robots today, your more likely to think about a mobile suit, an Eva or a Megazord than about Jeeg or Mazinger, just as you’re more likely to think about Sailor Moon or Madoka Magica when the term magical girl is brought up.

In my case, ‘giant robots’ are like this.

Okay, now for a question. Has anyone read Osamu Tezuka’s works? Dororo, Black Jack, Buddha, Tetsuwan Atom (aka Astro Boy), Phoenix?

P.S. National Kid, Gekkō-kamen, Ninja Hattori-kun, and Akuma-kun I like.

P.P.S. For the record, I can’t get the Dororo opening theme out of my head. Help!

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Guys, about Dragon Ball… I myself am not a fan and don’t care about it at all but remember, without it we wouldn’t have Bleach, Naruto or Yu yu Kakusho which I hear is really good because Dragonball is the origin of many shonen cliches and tropes. Today it seems cliched but in reality, it codified or originated many tropes and ideas. The same for Sailor Moon and the Magical Girl genre. The same with Watchmen in regards comic books and Seinfield to comedy. Hell, the same for Evangelion and Gundam to giant robots. When you think of giant robots today, your more likely to think about a mobile suit, an Eva or a Megazord than about Jeeg or Mazinger, just as you’re more likely to think about Sailor Moon or Madoka Magica when the term magical girl is brought up.

I admire Dragonball. It shouldn’t be judged by the standards of our times because during the 90’s and the 80’s, Dragonball was seen as one of the best things ever and for that time, I’d agree. The story and writing is dated today yes (so is Bleach’s) but overall, praise be to Dragonball.

Oh don’t worry, I sure give Dragonball credit for fathering the shonen genre. I just think that old-time fans (and haters of younger series -.-) need to realize its flaws.

In terms of storyline, I haven’t really made an criticism. Heck, my one and only complaint I’ve ever had against Dragonball is the art style!

This is not attractive. At all.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/_.../thumb/7/71/BulmaFEDB.png/250px-BulmaFEDB.png

THIS on the other hand…

http://forums.mangafox.me/attachment.php?attachmentid=37336&d=1304890357

Nyuu… Levy… ^////^

 

[patrick457]

Oh don’t worry, I sure give Dragonball credit for fathering the shonen genre. I just think that old-time fans (and haters of younger series -.-) need to realize its flaws.

In terms of storyline, I haven’t really made an criticism. Heck, my one and only complaint I’ve ever had against Dragonball is the art style!

This is not attractive. At all.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/_.../thumb/7/71/BulmaFEDB.png/250px-BulmaFEDB.png

THIS on the other hand…

http://forums.mangafox.me/attachment.php?attachmentid=37336&d=1304890357

Nyuu… Levy… ^////^

Hah!

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

((((((((((っ・ω・)っ ﾌﾞｰﾝ

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Hah!

http://neoapo.com/images/anime/947/d79e9d7b4c1650dc1e7f9d48444653c4.jpg

((((((((((っ・ω・)っ ﾌﾞｰﾝ

Oh yeah! I have chibis too! Have at thee!! X3

 

[MrSylvester]

Oh don’t worry, I sure give Dragonball credit for fathering the shonen genre. I just think that old-time fans (and haters of younger series -.-) need to realize its flaws.

In terms of storyline, I haven’t really made an criticism. Heck, my one and only complaint I’ve ever had against Dragonball is the art style!

This is not attractive. At all.

THIS on the other hand…

Nyuu… Levy… ^////^

Yeah, it is not very attractive. For the most well animated anime, I have to pick the Rebuild of Evangelion films, Elfen Lied, Death Note, Clannad (especially the illusionary world parts) and of course, Haruhi Suzumiya. I mean, Haruhi has GORGEOUS animation with very subtle facial and body expressions rampant. No wonder only 14 episodes were made for the first season. I want more. Really, I want more, or at least give me a translation of the Light Novels.Please?

Say LW, what is the worst anime or manga you have ever wathced or read? To me, the worst anime was Fruits Basket. Outside of anime and manga, the worst thing I ever read was a book series called "The Fiddien Trilogy’ (pronounced fihd-in).

It’s main faults were that it was poorly worded and written, was boring as hell and the story was in the end disappointing. I literally wanted to throw the book against a wall the story disgusted me so much at how badly written it was. I said disappointing, because the book series (consisting of a trilogy, duh!) had an actually good and interesting concept and that makes everything else equally bad.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Say LW, what is the worst anime or manga you have ever wathced or read? To me, the worst anime was Fruits Basket.

I actually love Fruits Basket. (I kinda wish there were more girls like sweet Tohru existing in this world. :crying

On the other hand, my pick for worst anime would definitely be… School Days. I’m not fond of mixing gore with moe. Throw in the wrong kind of deconstructionism and I’m glad I never pursued that series.

 

[MrSylvester]

Well, since you people are posting pictures of cute stuff, let me post mine:

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/...ka_hanyuu_higurashi_no_naku_koro_ni_large.jpg

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)



Also, this, even though I’ve never seen this anime:



And to top this all off…

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[MrSylvester]

I actually love Fruits Basket. (I kinda wish there were more girls like sweet Tohru existing in this world. :crying

On the other hand, my pick for worst anime would definitely be… School Days. I’m not fond of mixing gore with moe. Throw in the wrong kind of deconstructionism and I’m glad I never pursued that series.

Wait a minute, by saying that you enver pursued School Days, do you mean to say that you haven’t watched it? I haven’t finished all of Fruits Basket admittedly but I have seen 13 episodes. Did you see School Days though? It actually sounds interesting not because it looks like its going to be good, just because I want to see it for its horrific characters and general badness.

To be hoenst, I don’t mind moe characters mixed with gore (sometimes). Lucy from Elfen Lied, all the girls in Higurashi no naku koro, Puella Magi Madoka Magica, even one of the characters in Haruhi Suzumya have gotten involved in some blood and gore (for the record, PMMM is not gory. AT ALL. The MOST you will ever see that comes close to gore is in episode 3 when one of the magical girls die. Her head is bitten off but we only ever see some blood and the characters crying over her which is even more tragic).

Also, regarding Elfen Lied, I wouldn’t call it THE goriest anime ever.Its more depressing and sad and it doesn’t focus on the gore unlike other anime. The dishonor for the goriest anime ever goes to, ahem, GenoCyber. Just, don’t google it, seriously. Please. Its not like I wrote this in order for some schmuck to google it and see the gore for him… oh, yes I did! I did that on purpose! Sigh, I love trolling.

 

[patrick457]

Also, this, even though I’ve never seen this anime:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-y0a3fzBww5Q/TsrJvz66RvI/AAAAAAAAAJ0/s7Z_NMmhKbk/s1600/1190999659824.jpg

Run away! Run away!!

 

[Crescentinus]

Because the physical aspect of the character?

I watched one or two episodes. I didn’t find it so great. I prefer Nichijou! so many laughs and good moments last year!

Blessings!

I think it has something to do with her infamous fetish quote that I mentioned here in the CAF before. o:

 

[sidetrack]

Oh don’t worry, I sure give Dragonball credit for fathering the shonen genre. I just think that old-time fans (and haters of younger series -.-) need to realize its flaws.

In terms of storyline, I haven’t really made an criticism. Heck, my one and only complaint I’ve ever had against Dragonball is the art style!

This is not attractive…

Regarding the visual aesthetic of the show (one of the reasons I quoted LostWanderer) that could definately use some work.Personally for me I think that the eyes could definately use some work.I dont like tiny pupils with likely no iris in a big space of white sclera from eyes that aren’t very well shaped.Also I dont know iff it’s just me but Toriyama has a tendancy to draw faces with like all the sensory organs so closely clustered together which ends up giving that big forehead and chin space.If I had things my way I’d like to eventually develop the designs and art into something fairly different but I’d start off with Kamui Fujiwara (who did the Dragon Quest VII manga) doing the character designs.The art in that manga is still obviously Toriyama style but to me at least gives off a vibe that it’s art is slightly shifting away from Toriyama’s.Also I’d prob.hire the staff who did the character designs for Digimon to there thing somewhat for the non-human characters and I guess design the physical bodies and the face proportions of the more human ones. I’m sort of surprised that you (Wanderer if your out there) haven’t made a criticism about the storyline.

This bring to my mind of WhatTheEgad a reviewer dude who’s from youtube,blip and thatguywiththeglasses.com and the load of “Digimon 02 in retrospect” videos he did.They were awesomely intellectual!.What was so astonishing about his reviews was how closely he scrutinized objective merits like plot strength and character development/worth and after that I watching those videos I sort of agreed with him on 02 was weaker then the first season (adventures).Dont get me wrong though 02 is still one of my favourite seasons but he made some good points that I did not see and consider.

I mean he could have done a more conspicously philosophical series like Ghost in the shell,*Neon Genesis Evangelion *or Fullmetal alchemist but instead he picked *Digimon 02 *which to many seems simplisticly kiddy-ish but I loved that he did that.He was quite extensive in finding the flaws in 02 and he was even bold enough to explain his alternative to 02’s story-arc arrangement and even brought up the literary device chiastic structure in analysing the plot’s progress and what could have been.His site is theegad.livejournal.com/ but those Digimon vids seem to start at theegad.livejournal.com/2010/06/24/ in his archives and they come with transcripts as well.

After seeing the way he dissected Digimon 02 (which I never really thought before had plot coherence problems) I would LOVE to see that guy scrutinize DBZ.Yes,partly out of the cynical enjoyment of seeing it be taken apart by someone so analytical but also out of curiousty to hear what this guy would say in his examination and see if even he could make out and point out some flaws that no one else has picked out on.
Anyways I made all those postings b/c I think overall to keep it concise I believe that DB deserves better treatment then in the clutches of Toriyama’s frivolity b/c that man is just way to unreliable in many ways:dts: when it comes to this creation of his.Frankly stuff like what’s said in the 4th of the first 4 panels of this…

http://comiccritics.com/2009/07/12/differing-points-of-review/

makes me go like *this * youtube.com/watch?v=uRfmVe7iL4k .Here’s the link to the image for those who didn’t see it before comiccritics.com/2009/07/12/differing-points-of-review/

See I very much like how in a nutshell all the series (including the debatable GT*) is about the amazing telling of the near whole life-story of Goku:a naive tailed little boy who became an unprecedentedly powerful alien family man who still that endearing childhood naiveness.It very much has the foundation and space to grow into beautiful innovation of a story.Quoting Miyazaki “Sometimes to grow your audience you must betray there expectations” and were there to be another Dragon ball series it would very likely have to do this IMO for the sake of the story’s worth even at the risk of alienating a few ppl even those who are to obstinate to accept any other developments as a bad comprimise,thinking it damages this unfortunately somewhat mindless at times series b/c there they think DBZ is the “end all be all of” of anime (I’m thinking of*** many*** a youtube commenter here -.

It kind of bothers me when a person would argue againest DB becoming serious b/c they argue that it’s an action-comedy.:yawn:PPUUUUHH-LLEEEEEEEZZZEEEEE!.Were that many ppl thinking about the comedy of Dragon ball by the time of Z?.Better question yet,was anyone watching Z for the comedy?.Inuyasha did action comedy good b/c the humour was not only word based but it did gags that were okay and reasonable to do in the context of a Japanese fuedal era fantasy whereas DBZ did word based humour but to my dismay that stupid toilet humour stuff which was just to me like a nigh-unacceptable juxtapostion in a show that tries to be about brisk fights between good and bad.

[continues next posting]