Who needs yoga?

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You’ve kinda swerved from my point here. Real hard too.

Clearing your heard is neither a Christian nor is it a Hindu concept. Everyone needs a chill pill without necessarily hitting the sack. After a long day of copywriting and coffee, I welcome the idea of just closing my eyes and stop thinking about it all (even for just 15 minutes).

Yoga or not, that practice really helps curb any murderous tendencies (particularly of the axe variety). 👍
Lost, may I suggest: closing your eyes and meditating on the cross. I do this at night when I can’t sleep, when my mind is still doing jumping jacks. I find that focusing on the cross, helps me to relax and go back to sleep. Although having coffee anytime after 3pm can be troublesome.

To the title of the thread, no, I don’t believe anyone “needs” yoga.

Better question is: Who needs coffee?

😃
 
John of the Cross spoke of how inner silence of prayer/contemplation provides immunity from attacks from the devil by reducing the imagination and verbal thoughts to tamper with.

(See Ascent of Mt Carmel Book 3, chapter 4 #1 p 260

“For the devil has no power over the soul unless it be through the operations of its faculties, principally by means of knowledge, whereupon depend almost all the other operations of the other faculties. Wherefore, if the memory be annihilated with respect to them, the devil can do naught; for he finds no foothold, and without a foothold he is powerless.”

and Book 3 Chapter 6, #2 262
"2. In the second place, it is freed from many suggestions, temptations and motions of the devil, which he infuses into the soul by means of thoughts and ideas, causing it to fall into many impurities and sins, as David says in these words: ‘They have thought and spoken wickedness.’ And thus, when these thoughts have been completely removed, the devil has naught wherewith to assault the soul by natural means."

ccel.org/ccel/john_cross/ascent.pdf

We all find it extremely difficult to practice silence, outer and inner. Even if we do not speak we usually have that inner monologue going on except in moments of pure attention. It takes faith to get through what seems to be a negative phase befor we realize the more subtle fullness of Christ already there all the time. There are so many distractions.

We often refer to the Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on some aspects of Christian Meditation – but then skip over that it acknowledges:

That does not mean that genuine practices of meditation which come from the Christian East and from the great non-Christian religions, which prove attractive to the man of today who is divided and disoriented, cannot constitute a suitable means of helping the person who prays to come before God with an interior peace, even in the midst of external pressures.

And yet dangers can be anywhere. The letter begins wiht errors in the early Church (cf. 1 Jn 4:3; 1 Tim 1:3-7 and 4:3-4) and “subsequently, two fundamental deviations came to be identified: Pseudognosticism and Messalianism”

Eastern forms do not have the monopoly on dangers. Any time there is the risk of Christ being subordinate to any method, experience or other goal there is danger.

Danger to believe that out own efforts bring our salvation; danger to believe that our faith eliminates any need for effort on our part.

Danger that we stive to extingish our very self through some immersion in the indeterminate abyss; danger also that we place God within the box of our own favorite limiting images. Danger of ego extinction & danger of ego inflation.

Danger that we make our feelings the sole criteria of spiritual progress; danger that we think we have it all figured out intellectually or have the elite knowledge.

Danger to think we can control God’s action by any technique or prayer.

Danger of believing one is God; danger of failing to acknowledge God in others.

Yes, there are many, many dangers everywhere the human heart can wander. The devil wants us to sin. S/He needs our free will for that.
 
St. John of the Cross speaks of disarming Satan by going the way of forgetfulness and emptiness of all thoughts.

Chapter 6 book thee describes the benefits and protection of this emptiness.

3.6
Of the benefits which come to the soul from forgetfulness and emptiness of all thoughts and knowledge which it may have in a natural way with respect to the memory.

2.8
“BEFORE we treat of the proper and fitting means of union with God, which is faith, it behoves us to prove how no thing, created or imagined, can serve the understanding as a proper means of union with God; and how all that the understanding can attain serves it rather as an impediment than as such a means, if it should desire to cling to it.”

basilica.org/pages/ebooks…t%20Carmel.pdf
 
John of the Cross spoke of how inner silence of prayer/contemplation provides immunity from attacks from the devil by reducing the imagination and verbal thoughts to tamper with.

(See Ascent of Mt Carmel Book 3, chapter 4 #1 p 260

“For the devil has no power over the soul unless it be through the operations of its faculties, principally by means of knowledge, whereupon depend almost all the other operations of the other faculties. Wherefore, if the memory be annihilated with respect to them, the devil can do naught; for he finds no foothold, and without a foothold he is powerless.”

and Book 3 Chapter 6, #2 262
"2. In the second place, it is freed from many suggestions, temptations and motions of the devil, which he infuses into the soul by means of thoughts and ideas, causing it to fall into many impurities and sins, as David says in these words: ‘They have thought and spoken wickedness.’ And thus, when these thoughts have been completely removed, the devil has naught wherewith to assault the soul by natural means."

ccel.org/ccel/john_cross/ascent.pdf

We all find it extremely difficult to practice silence, outer and inner. Even if we do not speak we usually have that inner monologue going on except in moments of pure attention. It takes faith to get through what seems to be a negative phase befor we realize the more subtle fullness of Christ already there all the time. There are so many distractions.

We often refer to the Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on some aspects of Christian Meditation – but then skip over that it acknowledges:

That does not mean that genuine practices of meditation which come from the Christian East and from the great non-Christian religions, which prove attractive to the man of today who is divided and disoriented, cannot constitute a suitable means of helping the person who prays to come before God with an interior peace, even in the midst of external pressures.

And yet dangers can be anywhere. The letter begins wiht errors in the early Church (cf. 1 Jn 4:3; 1 Tim 1:3-7 and 4:3-4) and “subsequently, two fundamental deviations came to be identified: Pseudognosticism and Messalianism”

Eastern forms do not have the monopoly on dangers. Any time there is the risk of Christ being subordinate to any method, experience or other goal there is danger.

Danger to believe that out own efforts bring our salvation; danger to believe that our faith eliminates any need for effort on our part.

Danger that we stive to extingish our very self through some immersion in the indeterminate abyss; danger also that we place God within the box of our own favorite limiting images. Danger of ego extinction & danger of ego inflation.

Danger that we make our feelings the sole criteria of spiritual progress; danger that we think we have it all figured out intellectually or have the elite knowledge.

Danger to think we can control God’s action by any technique or prayer.

Danger of believing one is God; danger of failing to acknowledge God in others.

Yes, there are many, many dangers everywhere the human heart can wander. The devil wants us to sin. S/He needs our free will for that.
St. John of the Cross was not practicing yoga. He advocated emptying your mind of certain thoughts so that the mind focus on Jesus was absolute.

Yoga sees focusing on Jesus as not emptying, and would advocate mind exercises, such as taking a thought that your mind does not release, picturing it out in front of you, examine it to determine why you can’t let go, and let your mind let it go.

Holding onto thoughts of God are not an exception to yoga emptying of mind or self.

St. John of the Cross did the complete opposite. He advocated letting certain types of thoughts go, to empty your mind of them so that all thought could be focused on God.
 
St. John of the Cross was not practicing yoga. He advocated emptying your mind of certain thoughts so that the mind focus on Jesus was absolute.

Yoga sees focusing on Jesus as not emptying, and would advocate mind exercises, such as taking a thought that your mind does not release, picturing it out in front of you, examine it to determine why you can’t let go, and let your mind let it go.

Holding onto thoughts of God are not an exception to yoga emptying of mind or self.

St. John of the Cross did the complete opposite. He advocated letting certain types of thoughts go, to empty your mind of them so that all thought could be focused on God.
I am not so sure of that.

Certainly there is a time for meditation on images and themes but also a time that “the soul
must be voided” not only of “certain thoughts” but** all thoughts **further along the spiritual journey.

Have a look at Book 3 chapter 2 on page 251 of Ascent

CHAPTER II
Which treats of the natural apprehensions of the memory and describes how the soul
must be voided of them in order to be able to attain to union with God according to
this faculty.

It is necessary that, in each of these books, the reader should bear in mind the purpose of
which we are speaking. For otherwise there may arise within him many such questions with
respect to what he is reading as might by this time be occurring to him with respect to what
we have said of the understanding, and shall say now of the memory, and afterwards shall
say of the will. For, seeing how we annihilate the faculties with respect to their operations,
it may perhaps seem to him that we are destroying the road of spiritual practice rather than
constructing it.

  1. This would be true if we were seeking here only to instruct beginners, who are best prepared
    through these apprehensible and discursive apprehensions. But, since we are here giving
    instruction to those who would progress farther in contemplation, even to union with God,
    to which end all of these means and exercises of sense concerning the faculties must recede
    into the background, and be put to silence, to the end that God may of His own accord work
    Divine union in the soul, it is necessary to proceed by this method of disencumbering and
    emptying the soul, and causing it to reject the natural jurisdiction and operations of the
    faculties
    , so that they may become capable of infusion and illumination from supernatural
    sources; for their capacity cannot attain to so lofty an experience, but will rather hinder it,
    if it be not disregarded.
ccel.org/ccel/john_cross/ascent.pdf
 
Clearly we are not having a conversation about simply stretching.
It started off that way. But, as usual, the thread get hijacked by those that freak out every time the word “yoga” appears.

Context matters. Unlike the east, “yoga” means different things in the west. Any oftentimes it means nothing other than stretching. Yes, some people actually practice the spiritual aspect of it, but of course there is the awareness of those practicing that Hindu elements are involved. Even still, practitioners in India would laugh at 95% of what is referred to as “yoga” in the western world.
 
Yoga is only a Problem, if your big toe on your left foot gets caught in the large spacer in your left ear lobe , and just won’t release,
 
Lost, may I suggest: closing your eyes and meditating on the cross. I do this at night when I can’t sleep, when my mind is still doing jumping jacks. I find that focusing on the cross, helps me to relax and go back to sleep. Although having coffee anytime after 3pm can be troublesome.
Why the cross? Why not just the idea of steam coming out of mah ears like a train engine or that spinning circle from the Windows Shutting Down screen? 🤷

That’s just what I don’t get here. Clearing your head is essentially a natural human function. Anyone can do it whether your Christian, Hindu, Indian, Chinese, British, or American.
Yoga sees focusing on Jesus as not emptying, and would advocate mind exercises, such as taking a thought that your mind does not release, picturing it out in front of you, examine it to determine why you can’t let go, and let your mind let it go.
Really? That’s THE yoga idea of meditation? I’ve seen too many gurus have looser definitions than that. Some say it’s going to your happy place. Others say just stop caring for a few brief seconds.

So really, what is so dark and sinister about doing just that?
Yoga is only a Problem, if your big toe on your left foot gets caught in the large spacer in your left ear lobe , and just won’t release,
:rotfl:
 
St. John of the Cross was not practicing yoga. He advocated emptying your mind of certain thoughts so that the mind focus on Jesus was absolute.

Yoga sees focusing on Jesus as not emptying, and would advocate mind exercises, such as taking a thought that your mind does not release, picturing it out in front of you, examine it to determine why you can’t let go, and let your mind let it go.

Holding onto thoughts of God are not an exception to yoga emptying of mind or self.

St. John of the Cross did the complete opposite. He advocated letting certain types of thoughts go, to empty your mind of them so that all thought could be focused on God.
To empty my mind, I would need a Shovel, wheelbarrow ,Pick , Pressure water cannon,
Or maybe a golly good shot of a few dozen volts of Electric shock…
There is no way I could Focus on Jesus or anything for more that 30 seconds,
Maybe a bit of yoga could help…
 
Why the cross? Why not just the idea of steam coming out of mah ears like a train engine or that spinning circle from the Windows Shutting Down screen? 🤷
That’s just what I don’t get here.
Lost Wanderer,

You are wanting me to explain why one would want to meditate on the cross?

:confused:
 
Wouldn’t it then be more accurate to say that both Hatha and Tantra emerged from classical yoga?
Good Morning Michael: Classical yoga includes the following branches:

Raja Yoga: Meditation.

Karma Yoga: Service to others.

Bhakti Yoga: Devotion.

Jnana Yoga: Reading of scripture.

Tantra Yoga: Ceremony, ritual. Being mindful. Can include sex, but I only recall about 6 sexual tantra out of about 100 or so. You can turn most anything into tantra - even riding a bike.

Hatha: Postures - the stretching most people mean when they refer to yoga.

These are attended by a number of lifestyle disciplines, which include non-harming, usually a vegetarian diet, and for very serious - yogis celibacy. There are others.

Thank you
Gary
 
This thread has moved me to once again resume my morning stretching, and to try to clear my mind and body of the tension we too often make for ourselves. Inconsistency is a problem for me when it comes to stretching (and prayer too :(). When I feel good, I relax my discipline. Tension builds, so I decide to stretch again. Tension is then released as pain, and I see a cause and effect between stretching and pain, so I stop stretching. Of course, if I wait until the tension releases unexpectedly during the course of my day, like the muscle spasms I get in my lower back, the pain will be much worse - debilitating!
 
Because many people here on CAF benefit from these stretches and exercises, but get concerned and even distressed when those poses are associated with yoga, because some just can’t seem to separate the body movements from their perceived spiritual implications in some Eastern religions. The OP was showing again that a stretch is a stretch is a stretch when there is no spiritual intent attached to it and that it’s okay to do these stretches if you are Catholic and it benefits your physical health.
But the problem isn’t that at all, It is the music and thing’s that are attached to it that the Church has a problem with.

Stretch all you want, but why do you have to have the music? Etc.

There is a Spiritual intent and it begins with the music. There is a eastern mysticism that underlies what is taught with them.

Much of this does not line up with the teachings of the RCC.

So while it is not the stretches themselves, it is the spiritual intent that we disagree with. And people who don’t truly understand the Catholic faith could be misled.
 
But the problem isn’t that at all, It is the music and thing’s that are attached to it that the Church has a problem with.

Stretch all you want, but why do you have to have the music? Etc.

There is a Spiritual intent and it begins with the music. There is a eastern mysticism that underlies what is taught with them.

Much of this does not line up with the teachings of the RCC.

So while it is not the stretches themselves, it is the spiritual intent that we disagree with. And people who don’t truly understand the Catholic faith could be misled.
Good Afternoon Rinnie: Any of the practices that apply to yoga can be done with a devotion to God in whatever form the practitioner chooses. A lot of Yoga is done with ambient music for instance. Ambient music has no words. Neither does classical sitar. Music has an effect on the mind as do yoga poses. A calmed mind can focus on whatever it is you want to focus on. Breathing and meditation can be done with whatever intent you like as well. Connecting with God and yourself and the world around us is not a sectarian affair. My position has always been that God is inherent and embedded in all things. What a person calls God or visualizes God as is largely a matter of cultural context. A Catholic can insert a Catholic context right into any yoga practice. The Rosary for instance is a form of mala. If you want to move more deeply into a rosary, yogic practice can help a person to concentrate more intently on the 15 mysteries, and help a person to sit still long enough to do 15 decades instead of 5 in a sitting, without losing focus or getting distracted. Breathing in and out with the name of Christ on ones breath can create a connective experience of the one you are thinking of. That is mantra.

Now for a Catholic like myself, I am unable to think of God outside of the contexts I grew up with. I cannot for instance think of a Hindu deity when I connect with God. My relationship with God is inextricable from the culture I was raised in. But where there are practices that can enhance my experience of God as a Catholic, I am compelled to try them. And for me they work very well. I would not go so far as to say that they would do the same for everyone or that such things are for everyone. I simply think people should practice what works for them as fully as they are able.

Thank you,
Gary
 
I guess for me, yoga means the eastern philosophical and religious ideas that are yoga. If it isn’t that, it isn’t yoga.

Stretching exercises while listening to music is not yoga, not any more than eating a peanut butter sandwich is receiving communion.

The difficulty is, finding a stretching class that isn’t, yoga. Or a westernized new age version of yoga. Both of which are going to incorporate non-Christian ideas and beliefs. I haven’t seen a yoga studio that doesn’t incorporate chakras and doesn’t have a statue of a Hindu God in it somewhere. Granted, some of the time the statues are decorative only, but still. I am uncomfortable practicing stretching exercises in front of a Vishnu meditation statue (Buddha believed to be his 9th avatar) with a chakra poster on the side.
 
I guess for me, yoga means the eastern philosophical and religious ideas that are yoga. If it isn’t that, it isn’t yoga.

Stretching exercises while listening to music is not yoga, not any more than eating a peanut butter sandwich is receiving communion.

The difficulty is, finding a stretching class that isn’t, yoga. Or a westernized new age version of yoga. Both of which are going to incorporate non-Christian ideas and beliefs. I haven’t seen a yoga studio that doesn’t incorporate chakras and doesn’t have a statue of a Hindu God in it somewhere. Granted, some of the time the statues are decorative only, but still. I am uncomfortable practicing stretching exercises in front of a Vishnu meditation statue (Buddha believed to be his 9th avatar) with a chakra poster on the side.
Hi Rebecca: I had to laugh - sounds like you are placing an order. 1 Vishnu statue with a chakra poster on the side. Would you like a Coke with that? 🙂
 
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