Who or what is the antichrist?

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bogeyjlg:
Read it for yourself.
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Sure – in the meantime, submit a book report on “Chariots of the Gods.” http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif
 
vern humphrey:
Which is why Catholic Answers never bothers to get either the nihil obstat or the imprimatur?
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vern, whatever kind of sneaky/specious argument you want to make, the fact remains that imprimaturs are only required for a limited class of books, and the book we recommended does not belong to that class of books.

It’s possible to get an imprimatur even when it is not required though. IIRC, the Catholic Answers tracts did not always have an imprimatur and some material published by Catholic Answers does not presently have an imprimatur.

To criticize a book that the Church does not require to have an imprimatur for not having an imprimatur is a case of “being more Catholic than the Pope” or perhaps simply a case of trying to make a sneaky/specious argument.
 
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tuopaolo:
vern, whatever kind of sneaky/specious argument you want to make, the fact remains that imprimaturs are only required for a limited class of books, and the book we recommended does not belong to that class of books.

It’s possible to get an imprimatur even when it is not required though. IIRC, the Catholic Answers tracts did not always have an imprimatur and some material published by Catholic Answers does not presently have an imprimatur.

To criticize a book that the Church does not require to have an imprimatur for not having an imprimatur is a case of “being more Catholic than the Pope” or perhaps simply a case of trying to make a sneaky/specious argument.
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Ah, I see your mistake. You think I’m criticizing the BOOK!

I’m criticizing the people who present it as Catholic doctrine. If it doesn’t have at least the Nihil Obstat, then to present it as Catholic teaching is misleading.

I note in an earlier post, you said, “The book comes with great endorsements.” It’s those endorsements I’m looking for – specifically one by the Catholic Church.
 
vern humphrey:
Ah, I see your mistake. You think I’m criticizing the BOOK!

I’m criticizing the people who present it as Catholic doctrine. If it doesn’t have at least the Nihil Obstat, then to present it as Catholic teaching is misleading.

I note in an earlier post, you said, “The book comes with great endorsements.” It’s those endorsements I’m looking for – specifically one by the Catholic Church.
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There you go again.

A book can contain Catholic teaching without it having an imprimatur. You must be an old Catholic who is used to the way things worked back then when lots of different books required an imprimatur. But as I’ve been trying to tell you, the law of the Church was changed recently and so imprimaturs function differently. You can’t say: “This book doesn’t have an imprimatur so it must not be in accord with Catholic doctrine” because today only a much more limited class of books requires the imprimatur. So it is foolish to “look” for an imprimatur in that way.

You also have another misunderstanding. Imprimaturs do not mean that the book is “endorsed” by the “Catholic Church.” Imprimaturs are not endorsements at all. It only means that there’s no conflict with central Catholic doctrines regarding faith and morals. The person granting the imprimatur could disagree and disagree strongly – even on theological grounds – with the book and still grant it. And the imprimatur is not granted by the Holy See so it would not be proper to say that it is granted by the “Catholic Church.” It is granted by way of a particular Church, a local bishop who largely delegates the task to other people. And, today, they are not very reliable for obvious reasons.

You don’t need an “imprimatur” to present something as being Catholic teaching and something doesn’t need an “imprimatur” for it to be presented as Catholic teaching. To insist on that is indeed being “more Catholic than the Pope” since there’s nothing in Church law which says anything like that.
 
Perhaps you missed the part where I said not all of this is binding in faith.
 
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tuopaolo:
There you go again.

A book can contain Catholic teaching without it having an imprimatur. .
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There you go again.

A book can also contain non-Catholic teaching without it having an imprimatur.

You want to make your point about the antiChrist? Refer me to something with the Nihil Obstat and the Imprimatur.
 
vern humphrey:
Which is why Catholic Answers never bothers to get either the nihil obstat or the imprimatur?

(For those who just tuned it – check out the Library. Note that all the works there bear something like this::

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004 )

Now, if you want to seriously argue something is acceptable to the Catholic Church, show me the nihil obstat and imprimatur.
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Catholic Answers does not get Imprimaturs on all of its works, nor is it required to do so.
 
David Oatney said:
Catholic Answers does not get Imprimaturs on all of its works, nor is it required to do so.
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Which is neither here nor there. The point was made:
No… the Antichrist with a capital “A” will be one man who has a Jewish birthrite and he will try make people believe he is the Christ.
**
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Now, this statement has a lot of baggage with it – including a whiff of millinarianism. You want me to believe it’s Catholic teaching, show some credentials.
 
vern humphrey:
Now, this statement has a lot of baggage with it – including a whiff of millinarianism. You want me to believe it’s Catholic teaching, show some credentials.

Now Vern is right here. Frankly, the Church has no difinitive teaching about whether the Man of Perdition will be a Jew. Could he be? Sure! Could he not be? Yes, he could. Whether he (or it, as in an Antichrist SYSTEM) is a Jew is not relevant. The Catechism rightly says that the Antichrist will be a “supreme religious deception,” part of the “final unleashing of evil” before the end of the world.
 
I duno why tuopa and vern always fighting.lolz…it’s like their inseperable.opposing forces…like if one goes to war…the other would definitely join the opposing force to fight the war…hehehe…

the antichrist is a real figure…most likely be one in the future…there have been two minor antichrist already…but this one is a capital ‘A’ at the end.

Just anything that is against the figure or teaching of Jesus Christ.
 
Don’t know who is the one and only AntiChrist, but we have had several who have been self proclaimed gods.

The roman emperors especially Nero and Caligula proclaims themselves to be gods. Hitler pretty much proclaimed himself to be god, Stalin and now the North Korean leader Kim Ill Sung are in the same sort of genocidal maniac class.

I think Hitler and Stalin came as close to being an antichrist as anyone. They murdered millions including thousands of Catholic priests. We have seen an self proclaimed evil prophets or John the Baptists types yet.

As much damage as nutcases like Hitler and Stalin created ,just think how much more damage they could have done with nuclear weapons and modern day electronic hearing devices. Modern technology has moved the world to the brink where the next super meglomaniac that comes along will have the world at his mercy with even more control and devastation.

Is the real AntiChrist alive today (or soon to be born) or was scriptures referring to the roman emperors ? I look forward to the reign of Jesus, but it would be pretty horrendous to have to suffer through a persecution like that of the Roman persecutions.

You have to admire the faith of the early martyrs, how do you prepare for death by being torn apart by lions and wild animals ?

wc
 
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bogeyjlg:
If you really want a good explanation on the Antichrist read
Trial, Tribulation and Triumph: Before, During and After Antichrist
by Desmond A. Birch

It contains all the information compiled together and goes into lengthy detail on what is legitamint and what is not.
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Good reference! I just bought the book few weeks ago!
Starting to read it…
 
wcknight,
because of the immorality and sins of the world over the past decades, I would have to give you an answer ‘yes, most definitely.’
i think we are living in the last times…
a couple of exorcisms have confirmed the devils have been preparing him few decades ago…i would think he’d be livin now…but we can never take the devils’ words for it…afterall, he is the father of lies…
 
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wcknight:
Don’t know who is the one and only AntiChrist, but we have had several who have been self proclaimed gods.

The roman emperors especially Nero and Caligula proclaims themselves to be gods. Hitler pretty much proclaimed himself to be god, Stalin and now the North Korean leader Kim Ill Sung are in the same sort of genocidal maniac class.
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Correct – as I pointed out many posts back, the evidence points to the Beast of Revelation (whose number is 666) as being the Emperor Nero/Domitian (Domitian being Nero Revividus, according to a popular belief at the time.)
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wcknight:
I think Hitler and Stalin came as close to being an antichrist as anyone. They murdered millions including thousands of Catholic priests. We have seen an self proclaimed evil prophets or John the Baptists types yet.

As much damage as nutcases like Hitler and Stalin created ,just think how much more damage they could have done with nuclear weapons and modern day electronic hearing devices. Modern technology has moved the world to the brink where the next super meglomaniac that comes along will have the world at his mercy with even more control and devastation.
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The 20th Century, as has been pointed out by many historians, was the bloodiest century of all – and major crimes like the Turkish genocide of the Armenians, the Collectivization Famine under Stalin, the Holocause, the Japanese massacres in China, the Killing Fields of Cambodia, and various crimes in Africa all offer field for speculation as to the Antichrist.
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wcknight:
Is the real AntiChrist alive today (or soon to be born) or was scriptures referring to the roman emperors ? I look forward to the reign of Jesus, but it would be pretty horrendous to have to suffer through a persecution like that of the Roman persecutions.
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I suspect the Antichrist is not a person but a system.
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wcknight:
You have to admire the faith of the early martyrs, how do you prepare for death by being torn apart by lions and wild animals ?

wc
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By doing what’s right without compromise in the little things, you gain strength to stand firm when greater matters are at hand.
 
Vern is not alone in his belief that the Antichrist may be a system and not a mere person. The Catechism’s lack of specificity about the matter would seem to lend some credence to the notion that this is an acceptable point of view. All the CCC says with a certainty about the Antichrist is that it is a “supreme religious deception” that will take place before the Last Things in Time.
 
Surely, Jesus Christ was not a system.

Whoever is the anti-christ would have to be a figure opposite to Christ in a real way.

The devil knows this, why can’t you? The more you lack on the belief, the more the devil triumphs, afterall, he tells people he doesn’t exist.
who’s sides are you on?
 
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Lovez4God:
Surely, Jesus Christ was not a system.

Whoever is the anti-christ would have to be a figure opposite to Christ in a real way.
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From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

[675](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/675.htm’)😉 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576

Note that the Catechism describes the Antichrist as “a pseudo-messianism,” not as “a pseudo-messiah.” Communism, Nazism, and many other “isms” would fit that description very well.
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Lovez4God:
The devil knows this, why can’t you? The more you lack on the belief, the more the devil triumphs, afterall, he tells people he doesn’t exist.
who’s sides are you on?
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Note the following paragraph from the Catechism:

[676](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/676.htm’)😉 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.578

Millenarianism (assigning a historical future to things that lie beyond history) is a heresy. The sort of “predictions” you see screaming from the headlines of supermarket tabloids, and the kind of divination that “reveals” that "the Antichrist with a capital “A” will be one man who has a Jewish birthrite and he will try make people believe he is the Christ." is very close to millinarianism.
 
show me the reference to your catechism, vern.
i will respond later.
 
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Lovez4God:
show me the reference to your catechism, vern.
i will respond later.
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??? I just did!!

I posted, verbatim, paragraphs 675 and 676 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

If you don’t have a copy, you can find it on line at scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
 
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