Who or what is the antichrist?

  • Thread starter Thread starter huskerfan
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
vern humphrey:
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576

Note that the Catechism describes the Antichrist as “a pseudo-messianism,” not as “a pseudo-messiah.” Communism, Nazism, and many other “isms” would fit that description very well.

Note the following paragraph from the Catechism:

676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.578

Millenarianism (assigning a historical future to things that lie beyond history) is a heresy. The sort of “predictions” you see screaming from the headlines of supermarket tabloids, and the kind of divination that “reveals” that "the Antichrist with a capital “A” will be one man who has a Jewish birthrite and he will try make people believe he is the Christ." is very close to millinarianism.
Click to expand...
umm…I think you are interpreting this wrong. We are not trying to promote the deception of the Antichrist kingdom. Are you trying to put us up against our own religion? I don’t get you Vern! There are people out there who are actually promoting the ideas of antichrist kingdom. I don’t see you stoping them.
Here you are giving us an excerpt from an updated catechism, telling us we are deceived? Would it be us who are deceived when in fact history is right there in front of us.
Is it not you who are deceived? The Church must go through a final trial. What kind of trial do you think it would be?
 
40.png
Lovez4God:
umm…I think you are interpreting this wrong. We are not trying to promote the deception of the Antichrist kingdom. Are you trying to put us up against our own religion? I don’t get you Vern! There are people out there who are actually promoting the ideas of antichrist kingdom. I don’t see you stoping them.
Click to expand...
Stop them I cannot – argue against them, I can. Did I not post both paragraphs 675 and 676?

Have I not pointed out the dangers of falling into millinarianism, which is specifically condemned by the Church?
40.png
Lovez4God:
Here you are giving us an excerpt from an updated catechism, telling us we are deceived?
Click to expand...
You object, in a Catholic forum, to someone quoting from the Catechism of the Catholic Church?
40.png
Lovez4God:
Would it be us who are deceived when in fact history is right there in front of us.
Click to expand...
What specific history are you talking about?
40.png
Lovez4God:
Is it not you who are deceived?
Click to expand...
Since I stick with the Catechism, I think I’m on fairly safe grounds.

Do you claim the Catechism is somehow wrong, and reject it?
40.png
Lovez4God:
The Church must go through a final trial. What kind of trial do you think it would be?
Click to expand...
Hmmm . . . it COULD be Catholics running after Protestant heresies, like millinarianism, fundamentalism, and so on.
 
**Lovez4God, you may not have the right attitude (per the Church) about this question. Vern clearly quoted the CCC, and I can tell you that it was the updated, post-Vatican II, Pope John Paul II, 1997 Catechism, so you can’t criticize him for using it to prove his point. **

The fact of the matter is that the Church gives the Believer a VERY wide berth on this question of the Antichrist and the Last Things. We are obliged to believe that the Antichrist is real and, per the CCC, a future happening!

**We are also free to believe that the Antichrist is a single human being, as you do. We are free to believe that the Antichrist is a system and not a singular person, as Vern does, or we are free to believe that the Antichrist may consist of some combination of the two. **

The reason that we may have this freedom of speculative belief in this matter is because the Holy Spirit has not revealed enough about this question in its fullness to our Holy Mother Church for the Church to make a definitive declaration about the nature of the Antichrist. The only thing we can say with certainty is that the Antichrist, whatever he or it might be, is a reality.
 
and i quoted :supposes in his Epistles that the early Christians are acquainted with the teaching concerning the coming of Antichrist. “You have heard that Antichrist cometh” (1 John 2:18); “This is Antichrist, of whom you have heard that he cometh” (1 John 4:3). Though the Apostle speaks of several Antichrists, he distinguishes between the many and the one principal agent: “Antichrist cometh, even now there are become many Antichrists” (1 John 2:18). Again, the writer outlines the character and work of Antichrist: “They went out from us, but they were not of us” (1 John 2;19); “Who is a liar, but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denies the Father, and the Son” (1 John 2:22); “And every spirit that dissolveth Jesus, is not of God; and this is Antichrist” (1 John 4:3); “For many seducers are gone out into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh: this is a seducer and an Antichrist” (2 John 7). Also the time, the Apostle places the coming of Antichrist at “the last hour” (1 John 2:18); again he maintains that “he is now already in the world” (1 John 4:3). for me is someone or something that goes against christ teachings, and salvation plan for humanity.:blessyou:
 
vern humphrey:
Note that the Catechism describes the Antichrist as “a pseudo-messianism,” not as “a pseudo-messiah.”
Click to expand...
This is typical of adherents of SEI. sigh

If English is not your first language then I would understand how you could make such a mistake … but otherwise I don’t understand. At any rate, “a pseudo-messianism” is modifying not “the Antichrist” but rather “The supreme religious deception.”. Simple English grammar.

It is the traditional Catholic position that the Antichrist will be a man with a human soul.

Here’s something with an Imprimatur that says as much:

"d) The appearance of Antichrist

The falling away from the Faith stands in a causal connection with the apperanace of Antichrist. 2 Thess. 2, 3 . . . He appears in the power of Satan, works apparent miracles, in order to lead men astray into the falling-away from the truth and into unrigheousness and to cast them into destruction (V. 9-11), The Lord JEsus will, on His arrival, kill him “with the spirit of His mouth,” that is destroy him with a power proceeding from Him (V. 8). The name Antichrist is first used by St John . . . but he also designates the false teachers, who speak in the spirit of Antichrist, by this name. According to SS. Paul and John, Antichrist is to appear as a definite human personality who is the instrument of Satan. The Didache speaks of a “seducer of the world.” (16, 4) . . . ."

(p. 487 of Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott with an Imprimatur by +Cornelius, Ep. Corgagiensis et Ap. Adm. Rossensis. 7 October, 1954.)
 
40.png
tuopaolo:
This is typical of adherents of SEI. sigh

If English is not your first language then I would understand how you could make such a mistake … but otherwise I don’t understand. At any rate, “a pseudo-messianism” is modifying not “the Antichrist” but rather “The supreme religious deception.”. Simple English grammar.

It is the traditional Catholic position that the Antichrist will be a man with a human soul.

Here’s something with an Imprimatur that says as much:

"d) The appearance of Antichrist

The falling away from the Faith stands in a causal connection with the apperanace of Antichrist. 2 Thess. 2, 3 . . . He appears in the power of Satan, works apparent miracles, in order to lead men astray into the falling-away from the truth and into unrigheousness and to cast them into destruction (V. 9-11), The Lord JEsus will, on His arrival, kill him “with the spirit of His mouth,” that is destroy him with a power proceeding from Him (V. 8). The name Antichrist is first used by St John . . . but he also designates the false teachers, who speak in the spirit of Antichrist, by this name. According to SS. Paul and John, Antichrist is to appear as a definite human personality who is the instrument of Satan. The Didache speaks of a “seducer of the world.” (16, 4) . . . ."

(p. 487 of Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott with an Imprimatur by +Cornelius, Ep. Corgagiensis et Ap. Adm. Rossensis. 7 October, 1954.)
Click to expand...
Barely a cut above a spelling flame.

“Pseudo-Messianism” is a belief. But that doesn’t automatically make for a Pseudo-Messiah. Clearly the Catechism speaks of a belief system.

And the CCC, as John Paul II said in his Apostolic Letter prefacing it, a complete exposition of Catholic doctrine.

“In this regard one can certainly understand that such a remarkable number of suggested improvements shows the extraordinary interest that the Catechism has raised throughout the world, even among non-Christians, and confirms its purpose of being presented as a full, complete exposition of Catholic doctrine, enabling everyone to know what the Church professes, celebrates, lives, and prays in her daily life.”
 
vern humphrey said:
“Pseudo-Messianism” is a belief. But that doesn’t automatically make for a Pseudo-Messiah.
Click to expand...

Apparently you didn’t read my post. Please read it.

Yes pseudo-messianism is a belief but NO “pseudo-messianism” does NOT modify “the Antichrist” but rather modifies “The supreme religious deception.”

Do you know what the word “modify” means in this grammatical context? If you don’t look it up here:
dictionary.reference.com/search?q=modify
It’s the 3rd definition prefaced by Grammar

What is at issue is not the authority of the Catechism but your poor grammar skills causing you to misrepresent what the Catechism says.

You kept on asking for something with an Imprimatur and I gave it to you and now as expected you just ignored it. Why on earth did you repeatedly ask me and other posters for something with an Imprimatur when you knew that you were just going to ignore it anyway? I think my earlier remarks about the nature of your arguments in this thread were correct.
 
40.png
tuopaolo:
Apparently you didn’t read my post. Please read it.

Yes pseudo-messianism is a belief but NO “pseudo-messianism” does NOT modify “the Antichrist” but rather modifies “The supreme religious deception.”

Do you know what the word “modify” means in this grammatical context? If you don’t look it up here:
dictionary.reference.com/search?q=modify
It’s the 3rd definition prefaced by Grammar

What is at issue is not the authority of the Catechism but your poor grammar skills causing you to misrepresent what the Catechism says.

You kept on asking for something with an Imprimatur and I gave it to you and now as expected you just ignored it. Why on earth did you repeatedly ask me and other posters for something with an Imprimatur when you knew that you were just going to ignore it anyway? I think my earlier remarks about the nature of your arguments in this thread were correct.
Click to expand...
Apparently you didn’t read my post; “Barely a cut above a spelling flame.”

The issue of the Antichrist being of Jewish descent (and for all I know, red-haired, left-handed, and with one blue and one green eye) is not covered in the quote you offered.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

As for the claim that the Antichrist is a single individual, I haven’t said he isn’t – only that it is permissible to believe that the Antichrist may be a system, rather than a person.

Given the authority of the CCC, I will take it as John Paul II labeled it – a complete exposition of Catholic doctrine.
 
vern humphrey:
As for the claim that the Antichrist is a single individual, I haven’t said he isn’t
Click to expand...
Actually you did:

“I suspect the Antichrist is not a person but a system.”

But I don’t care so much about that. What I care about is your misrepresenting what the Catechism says and teaches, namely what you said here:

“Note that the Catechism describes the Antichrist as “a pseudo-messianism,””

I pointed out that “a pseudo-messianism” does NOT modify the word “the Antichrist.” So to claim that the Catechism teaches that the Antichrist is “a pseudo-messianism” is not just poor grammar, but a criticial misrepresentation of the Catechism’s teaching which you claim to care about, but so non-chalantly continue to misrepresent.
 
40.png
tuopaolo:
Actually you did:

“I suspect the Antichrist is not a person but a system.”.
Click to expand...
What part of “I suspect” did you not understand?
40.png
tuopaolo:
But I don’t care so much about that. What I care about is your misrepresenting what the Catechism says and teaches, namely what you said here:

“Note that the Catechism describes the Antichrist as “a pseudo-messianism,””

I pointed out that “a pseudo-messianism” does NOT modify the word “the Antichrist.” So to claim that the Catechism teaches that the Antichrist is “a pseudo-messianism” is not just poor grammar, but a criticial misrepresentation of the Catechism’s teaching which you claim to care about, but so non-chalantly continue to misrepresent.
Click to expand...
And as I said, “barely a cut above a spelling flame.”
 
I said it would be a Jewish man because it only makes sense that way.

The Antichrist with a capital “A” will come before Christs return. That I know is certain (see Catechism). He will decieve people into believing that he is the Christ and thus get people to worship him and not God.

Only an idiot would believe that a non-Jewish man would be the Messiah (therefore his, the Antichrist, ploy to decieve wouldn’t be a good ploy).

As for millenarism… I am no millenarist.
 
vern, I’m not interested in “sparring” with you. I only ask that now that your misrepresentation of the Catechism has been corrected that in the future you don’t misrepresent it in that way. Thank you.
 
40.png
bogeyjlg:
I said it would be a Jewish man because it only makes sense that way.

The Antichrist with a capital “A” will come before Christs return. That I know is certain (see Catechism). He will decieve people into believing that he is the Christ and thus get people to worship him and not God.

Only an idiot would believe that a non-Jewish man would be the Messiah (therefore his, the Antichrist, ploy to decieve wouldn’t be a good ploy).

As for millenarism… I am no millenarist.
Click to expand...
Wevoka was not Jewish, now was he?http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

Messianism is not limited to Judaism, nor need pseudo-messianism come in a religious form – Communism is clearly an atheistic form of messianism with it’s theories of the “withering away of the state” and “the end of history.”
 
Who is Wevoka?.. Catholic teaching does not deny many antichrists (note the lower case “a”) throughout history. I am talking about the Antichrist.
 
40.png
tuopaolo:
vern, I’m not interested in “sparring” with you. I only ask that now that your misrepresentation of the Catechism has been corrected that in the future you don’t misrepresent it in that way. Thank you.
Click to expand...
I’m not interested in sparring with you either, or in spelling flames, or picky points of grammar.
 
vern, I don’t care how poor your grammar is. I only care when you misrepresent the teaching of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Now, maybe to you the teaching of the Catechism of the Catholic Church is not important, but to me it is – so important that I do not want it to be misrepresented it – whether that be due to poor grammar skills, anti-Catholic prejudice, or whatever. Now let’s just drop it, shall we?
 
40.png
bogeyjlg:
Who is Wevoka?.. .
Click to expand...
A messiah, of course!

Wevoka, a Piute Indian, preached a messianic religion in the 1880s, which swept through the plains tribes and culminated in a major Sioux uprising that ended with the massacre of Big Foot’s band at Wounded Knee in 1890.

A false messiah need not be Jewish – he need only be a leader people will follow, and who preaches that he will bring about a new era, overturning all evils.
40.png
bogeyjlg:
Catholic teaching does not deny many antichrists (note the lower case “a”) throughout history. I am talking about the Antichrist.
Click to expand...
I don’t think you’ll find an uppercase A in the original manuscripts.

As I pointed out, Communism would clearly qualify as an atheistic messianism. In that case, who would be the Antichrist?

Marx? Hegel? Engels? Lenin? Trotsky? Stalin? Mao?
 
40.png
tuopaolo:
vern, I don’t care how poor your grammar is. I only care when you misrepresent the teaching of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Now, maybe to you the teaching of the Catechism of the Catholic Church is not important, but to me it is – so important that I do not want it to be misrepresented it – whether that be due to poor grammar skills, anti-Catholic prejudice, or whatever. Now let’s just drop it, shall we?
Click to expand...
Let’s do that – just don’t pretend that something just a cut above a spelling flame allows you to pretend that I’ve “misrepresented” the Catechism.
 
40.png
bogeyjlg:
You speak as if the Antichrist has already come.
Click to expand...
I wouldn’t be the first to speak that way.

1 John 4,1-3

1 Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh be longs to God, 3 and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus does not belong to God. **This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world. **
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top