Who qualifes as traditional catholics?

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Yes, Fr. Ratzinger did part ways with the radical progressives. However, my point remains the same as it has been throughout the thread: Pope Benedict is only conservative in relation to the new theology of the council. Even the positions he holds today are heavily influenced by that thought. As I said before, if you went back to the 1950s and showed any average Catholic the theological and liturgical ideas that Pope Bendict XVI currently holds, they would consider him to be a progressive. The terms are relative. He is a conservative in relation to the theology of the council. He is progressive in relation to the totality of tradition - in other words, he is not a traditionalist. I am not assigning any moral worth to these terms. That is a discussion for a different thread.

My overall point being: many today mistake post-conciliar conservatism as being synonymous with traditionalism. This is incorrect. They are distinct ideologies.
Well I don’t know about that- *" If you went go back to the 1950’s and showed any average Catholic the theological and liturgical ideas that Pope Benedict XVI currently holds, they would consider him to be a progressive". *I was born in 1950 and I did not know what progressive, liberal or conservative really meant until I started experiencing the confusion in the 70’s and 80’s. I just went along with the changes made at the time and took it for granted that the Church knew better than I. And I’m not convinced that my parents knew any better either. They were good devout Catholics with little education. I can see why some have had the desire to find out what it was all about and now have the internet at their fingertips to research it. Perhaps you have studied about it than some of us. I don’t care if Pope Benedict XVI was a progressive or a conservative. I just know that he was a good shepherd.

I also want to point out that the description of this board “Traditional Catholicism” is “Discussion of Catholic traditions and customs”. That is different from the ideology of traditionalism.
 
I hope someone is removing this from any public edifices in the USA

‘Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.’

Rank hypocracy
 
I don’t think you HAVE to go to the TLM but if you call yourself a Trad you better dang well either prefer it or at least try. I know many trads who don’t have access to it but prefer it. I think the problem is that many people confuse Traditional and Orthodox. You can be a Catholic who goes to the NO mass yet maintain orthodoxy, but that doesn’t make you a trad. You may be a NO attender and be more traditional then some others but to consider yourself a true traditionalist you probably should prefer, and attempt to go to the TLM. This question is kinda like asking an American if he is liberal or conservative. He may say conservative but in reality by the strictest definition of the word anyone who is a supporter of democracy or republicanism or any form of post-enlightenment government is technically liberal. Thats why our founders are called classical liberals. True conservatism is mainly support for monarchy and other reactionary political thought. Of course I don’t expect much agreement for my opinion on this site. Just my 2 cents.

P.S. I think you should add more options to the poll. you are not taking into account the other traditional liturgies such as the Byzantine and such, therefore possibly causing a flawed sample.
 
He may say conservative but in reality by the strictest definition of the word anyone who is a supporter of democracy or republicanism or any form of post-enlightenment government is technically liberal. Thats why our founders are called classical liberals. True conservatism is mainly support for monarchy and other reactionary political thought. Of course I don’t expect much agreement for my opinion on this site. Just my 2 cents.
FWIW, your 2 cents made money at the movie gate in the play 1776, especially the song sung by those opposed to signing the Declaration of Independence. (“Conservative men”)
 
I don’t think you HAVE to go to the TLM but if you call yourself a Trad you better dang well either prefer it or at least try. I know many trads who don’t have access to it but prefer it. **I think the problem is that many people confuse Traditional and Orthodox. **You can be a Catholic who goes to the NO mass yet maintain orthodoxy, but that doesn’t make you a trad. You may be a NO attender and be more traditional then some others but to consider yourself a true traditionalist you probably should prefer, and attempt to go to the TLM. This question is kinda like asking an American if he is liberal or conservative. He may say conservative but in reality by the strictest definition of the word anyone who is a supporter of democracy or republicanism or any form of post-enlightenment government is technically liberal. Thats why our founders are called classical liberals. True conservatism is mainly support for monarchy and other reactionary political thought. Of course I don’t expect much agreement for my opinion on this site. Just my 2 cents.

P.S. I think you should add more options to the poll. you are not taking into account the other traditional liturgies such as the Byzantine and such, therefore possibly causing a flawed sample.
Well said. I believe you and I are saying essentially the same thing.
 
Traditional Catholicism is a euphemism for schismatics who are in active defiance of Rome and the Holy Church. I am an orthodox Catholic and my late mother who lived through Vatican II and my aged father both never wavered and remained practicing Catholics all their lives. Now some so called traditionalists (I am more catholic than you kind of chap) are telling us that we have been mislead since Vatican II I find that very disturbing.
There is nothing wrong with the old liturgy and it is very beautiful but the problem is the underlying sin of arrogance and hubris which states that the Holy Church was lead astray in the 1960’s and is somehow no longer the Church which Christ established is a very serious problem.
 
Traditional Catholicism is a euphemism for schismatics who are in active defiance of Rome and the Holy Church. I am an orthodox Catholic and my late mother who lived through Vatican II and my aged father both never wavered and remained practicing Catholics all their lives. Now some so called traditionalists (I am more catholic than you kind of chap) are telling us that we have been mislead since Vatican II I find that very disturbing.
There is nothing wrong with the old liturgy and it is very beautiful but the problem is the underlying sin of arrogance and hubris which states that the Holy Church was lead astray in the 1960’s and is somehow no longer the Church which Christ established is a very serious problem.
Then what do you consider those who were influential in causing the perceived “rupture of continuity” at least two Popes have spoken against?
 
Thats why our founders are called classical liberals. True conservatism is mainly support for monarchy and other reactionary political thought. Of course I don’t expect much agreement for my opinion on this site. Just my 2 cents.
FWIW, the movie/play 1776 actually made this point. The lyrics of “Cool, Cool Conservative Men” speak volumes. It seems either way, though, they all risked their lives.
 
Then what do you consider those who were influential in causing the perceived “rupture of continuity” at least two Popes have spoken against?
Those are all conspiracy theories punted by people with agendas
As Catholics we remain inside the Holy Church and carry out our battles there.
We do not go off like Protestants and for our own elect group.
Were mistakes made probably do they need to be corrected they will be not though our efforts alone but through the Grace of the Holy Spirit.
Schism is a very serious sin and I would not encourage anyone to place their soul at risk by presuming have better insight than the Holy Church
 
I find this extremely troubling and arrogant.
A few individuals say the Holy Church is wrong and somehow is no longer the Church
The great Catherine of Sienna criticised and prayed and cajoled but she never for a moment left or wanted schism and she never assumed that she knew best
A lot of traditionalists seem tone quite convinced that they as individuals have the correct version of the faith.
 
Not preachy at all. I think it’s because I remember the Latin mass from childhood and then was familiar the Mass in English. I really have no preference for either form, but I have to say Knowing Latin does help with mass in Spanish and Italian. I like plenty of incense and black at funerals I think no one should wear a today as jewellery. I’d admit I prefer a bit of tradition to anything that looks vaguely Pentecostal. I don’t believe anyone speaks in tongues but I wouldn’t go out of my way to pray the chaplet of the child Jesus. I don’t believe in lots of stuff regarding visions etc but my excellent Catholic education taught me it’s not compulsory to. I guess I am less concerned with some of the external manifestations of our traditions but by the same token I would be affronted by some of the more off the wall ‘modern’ practices. I think that young people like to see nuns in a veil in fact I think there is a resurgence in clothing as a outward sign of inward belief ;Muslim women could teach our nuns quite a lot. Non habit wearing nuns are just a tedious remnant of the 1970s. So I suppose I have fixed opinions about lots of things but none of those things seem to connect. My mother died this year and I can’t imagine that process of dying, anointing reception requiem burial without the rituals of our church. They are a great source of comfort and hope in whatever language.
Many of us see the Church the way you have described it
My mother was devout Catholic who lived through all that and on her death bed had the last sacraments. I cannot imagine life without the structure of the Church for us to cling to.
I agree about foik masses and hold ing hands during the Our Father bit to much evangelical for me.
 
Yes, Fr. Ratzinger did part ways with the radical progressives. However, my point remains the same as it has been throughout the thread: Pope Benedict is only conservative in relation to the new theology of the council. Even the positions he holds today are heavily influenced by that thought. As I said before, if you went back to the 1950s and showed any average Catholic the theological and liturgical ideas that Pope Bendict XVI currently holds, they would consider him to be a progressive. The terms are relative. He is a conservative in relation to the theology of the council. He is progressive in relation to the totality of tradition - in other words, he is not a traditionalist. I am not assigning any moral worth to these terms. That is a discussion for a different thread.

My overall point being: many today mistake post-conciliar conservatism as being synonymous with traditionalism. This is incorrect. They are distinct ideologies.
Actually, the average Catholic adult in the early 1960’s had not much more than a Baltimore Catechism understanding of theology - which is to say, they knew precious little theology. They knew novenas and private prayers, and about 70 % of them attended Mass on a regular basis. However, there were almost no schools of theology except for seminaries; there were few or no books on theology and the ones there were, were not widespread. there were no seminars on theological thought; there were no relatively widespread popular magazines on theology. So most of the people in the pews would have had no basis with which to judge Father Ratzinger, or Father Wojtyla, or any of the other theologians.

And as to the conservatives in the curia not being organized, I beg to differ; those following Cardinal Ottaviani made a major effort to derail the Council before it ever started; and when they did not succeed they attempted to cast the direction of it. However, when the first draft came out, it was resoundingly defeated, and the process started over.

And yes, the periti were from northern European countries; but it is hard to name theologians over the last 1,000 years who were not European. It is also a bit of a stretch to relate matters as if not much more than a handful of bishops ran the whole council; that is in effect to say that out of the 2,000+ bishops at the council, a few lead and the 1,800 - 1,900 others were not much more than stooges.

The conservatives of the curia were intransigent about change, and they were replaced, because the Church was moving on from their entrenchment. A whole lot of the Council wasn’t about making changes to the Mass; it was about making changes to the working of the Church which the majority of the bishops of the world saw as important and necessary.

Weekly, we prayed for the guidance of the Holy Spirit for the Council, and I seriously doubt we were in an extreme minority doing so; it was widespread during the time the Council was meeting.

John 23rd made no bones about the fact that the Church needed to stop fighting matters that were somewhere between several hundred and 500 years old, and start to address the world as it- the world - currently existed. It was not that doctrine needed changing; it was that the Church, after 19 centuries, had accumulated accretions upon accretions, and was far more caught up in doctrinal disputes than it was in what Christ did, and what He commanded the Church to do - and that is to preach the Gospels - preach the Good News. And that has been the theme of the last three Popes - Evangelization, not doctrinal disputation

That is not to dispute that Edward Schillebeeckx and some others subsequently went off the rails. But those who try to imply that because they were among the periti, that the whole Council was tainted, are people who try to deny that the Holy Spirit guides the Church - or else they are people who seemingly forget that, largely because they don’t like the direction the Church took. “I don’t like it, therefore it is wrong” may be too tightly stated, but seems not that far off the truth.
 
I don’t think you HAVE to go to the TLM but if you call yourself a Trad you better dang well either prefer it or at least try. I know many trads who don’t have access to it but prefer it.** I think the problem is that many people confuse Traditional and Orthodox. You can be a Catholic who goes to the NO mass yet maintain orthodoxy, but that doesn’t make you a trad**. You may be a NO attender and be more traditional then some others but to consider yourself a true traditionalist you probably should prefer, and attempt to go to the TLM. This question is kinda like asking an American if he is liberal or conservative. He may say conservative but in reality by the strictest definition of the word anyone who is a supporter of democracy or republicanism or any form of post-enlightenment government is technically liberal. Thats why our founders are called classical liberals. True conservatism is mainly support for monarchy and other reactionary political thought. Of course I don’t expect much agreement for my opinion on this site. Just my 2 cents.

P.S. I think you should add more options to the poll. you are not taking into account the other traditional liturgies such as the Byzantine and such, therefore possibly causing a flawed sample.
I think you are failing to understand ("…you better dang well…" ) that some of us do not call ourselves “Trads” or want to be known as what is known as “Traditionalists” just because we prefer traditional Catholic practices and customs , art, music and architecture over contemporary.
 
Actually, the average Catholic adult in the early 1960’s had not much more than a Baltimore Catechism understanding of theology - which is to say, they knew precious little theology. They knew novenas and private prayers, and about 70 % of them attended Mass on a regular basis. However, there were almost no schools of theology except for seminaries; there were few or no books on theology and the ones there were, were not widespread. there were no seminars on theological thought; there were no relatively widespread popular magazines on theology. So most of the people in the pews would have had no basis with which to judge Father Ratzinger, or Father Wojtyla, or any of the other theologians.

And as to the conservatives in the curia not being organized, I beg to differ; those following Cardinal Ottaviani made a major effort to derail the Council before it ever started; and when they did not succeed they attempted to cast the direction of it. However, when the first draft came out, it was resoundingly defeated, and the process started over.

And yes, the periti were from northern European countries; but it is hard to name theologians over the last 1,000 years who were not European. It is also a bit of a stretch to relate matters as if not much more than a handful of bishops ran the whole council; that is in effect to say that out of the 2,000+ bishops at the council, a few lead and the 1,800 - 1,900 others were not much more than stooges.

The conservatives of the curia were intransigent about change, and they were replaced, because the Church was moving on from their entrenchment. A whole lot of the Council wasn’t about making changes to the Mass; it was about making changes to the working of the Church which the majority of the bishops of the world saw as important and necessary.

Weekly, we prayed for the guidance of the Holy Spirit for the Council, and I seriously doubt we were in an extreme minority doing so; it was widespread during the time the Council was meeting.

John 23rd made no bones about the fact that the Church needed to stop fighting matters that were somewhere between several hundred and 500 years old, and start to address the world as it- the world - currently existed. It was not that doctrine needed changing; it was that the Church, after 19 centuries, had accumulated accretions upon accretions, and was far more caught up in doctrinal disputes than it was in what Christ did, and what He commanded the Church to do - and that is to preach the Gospels - preach the Good News. And that has been the theme of the last three Popes - Evangelization, not doctrinal disputation

That is not to dispute that Edward Schillebeeckx and some others subsequently went off the rails. But those who try to imply that because they were among the periti, that the whole Council was tainted, are people who try to deny that the Holy Spirit guides the Church - or else they are people who seemingly forget that, largely because they don’t like the direction the Church took. “I don’t like it, therefore it is wrong” may be too tightly stated, but seems not that far off the truth.
In regards to knowing theology, we are fighting an uphill battle in an age where Catholics seem to be so enlightened that the teaching of the Church is derided as “simplistic”.
Theology is the “study of God”, not the study of ourselves. Catholics of all stripes prefer to study themselves and conform to themselves rather than hear the Good News. Ironically, radical traditionalist have *a lot *in common with radical progressives.
 
Been reading discussions like this as of late, but I’ve never even been to a TLM before. I grew up only knowing the NO. And besides, ethnically, I’m not your stereotypical Catholic either. And I’m expected to care about this? Never carried the Trad card so I have none to revoke. I just want to know what the real truth is.
I find this extremely troubling and arrogant.
A few individuals say the Holy Church is wrong and somehow is no longer the Church
The great Catherine of Sienna criticised and prayed and cajoled but she never for a moment left or wanted schism and she never assumed that she knew best
A lot of traditionalists seem tone quite convinced that they as individuals have the correct version of the faith.
They do come across this way. I’m relatively sympathetic, but I’d be a lot more so, if I can actually see if there is noticeable common ground between them. And I fail to see this.
 
It’s too bad. I knew it was only a matter of time before this thread would devolve into a turkey shoot on traditionalists, as if all of us are sedevancantists or schismatics.
 
I think you are failing to understand ("…you better dang well…" ) that some of us do not call ourselves “Trads” or want to be known as what is known as “Traditionalists” just because we prefer traditional Catholic practices and customs , art, music and architecture over contemporary.
That makes sense. I think being traditionalist is just as much a cultural thing as anything else.
 
It’s too bad. I knew it was only a matter of time before this thread would devolve into a turkey shoot on traditionalists, as if all of us are sedevancantists or schismatics.
Thats one of the reasons I don’t participate on this site much anymore.
 
It’s too bad. I knew it was only a matter of time before this thread would devolve into a turkey shoot on traditionalists, as if all of us are sedevancantists or schismatics.
And here, I thought I was the one being attacked for not being a “true traditionalist” just because I prefer the Ordinary Form of the Mass. 🤷
 
And here, I thought I was the one being attacked for not being a “true traditionalist” just because I prefer the Ordinary Form of the Mass. 🤷
Zab, I thought we had a good discussion. I didn’t mean it as an attack by any means and I apologize if I came across that way. I have always maintained that one can be an orthodox Catholic without being a traditionalist. The point of this thread is for us to provide what we believe qualifies one as a “traditionalist”. Obviously, debate and disagreement are all part of the forum experience and can be constructive for both sides. But all of that falls to the wayside when people begin to sling negative stereotypes and sweeping generalizations.
 
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