Who qualifes as traditional catholics?

[peter26]

I was just reflecting on this today. I would regard myself as a “traditional catholic”. I attend an Ordinariate parish where we use traditional hymns, incense, bells, use traditional language, have altar rail communion and many other traditional practices. But many seem to view a traditionalist as someone who only goes to a Tridentine Latin Mass. Can someone who attends a traditional, reverent ordinary form Mass be called a traditional catholic?

 

[Sarcelle]

There should be a third option, I don’t know.

You ask several people you get several answers.

The easier one to define is cafeteria versus orthodox Catholic. It may also come with its own controversy.

What I resent though is the implication that if you don’t attend the TLM you are a cafeteria Catholic.

I foresee the fur flying in this thread.

 

[Bballer32]

I would say no…only for this reason.

A person who is a Traditional Catholic should eventually or will eventually want to see what the TLM is like out of respect for tradition.

 

[JimmyG88]

Isn’t traditional Catholicism about belief. The externals while important surely aren’t the measure of traditionalism. Belief in transubstatiayion is out belief and tradition. How you receive Holy Communion is an external practice

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

Some traditional Catholics may not have access to a TLM (thus I voted no though I protest the structure of the poll). That said, traditional(ist) Catholicism is a package deal of theological outlook, liturgical praxis, and domestic piety; it has no precise boundaries, but should not be made artificially harder to define by thin-skinned individuals who feel that exclusion from the traditional club necessarily involves suspicion of heterodoxy. I love St. Thomas Aquinas and think St. Dominic was an outstanding fellow, but as I do not follow the rule of the S.O.P. or practice its spirituality in any intentional way, I am obviously not a Dominican Catholic . . . and even a daily rosary wouldn’t make me such. Similarly, if I have no attraction to the TLM and make no effort to look further back in time than 1960 to form my understanding of the faith, I am not a traditional Catholic, even if I like a few traditional things a la carte (Benediction or chant or Friday abstinence). That needn’t mean I reject anything the Church has taught, it just means my approach to the faith is not captured by this particular convenient shorthand.

 

[Bran_Stark]

Wikipedia is Wikipedia, I admit, but I think its definition of “Traditionalist Catholic” is a very good one:

Traditionalist Catholics are Roman Catholics who believe that there should be a restoration of many or all of the customs, traditions, liturgical forms, public and private devotions and presentations of teaching of the Church before the Second Vatican Council (1962–65).

The key phrase is “there should be a restoration.” A Catholic who happens to attend the EF but doesn’t care if he’s the only Catholic in the world who does - he probably is not a Traditionalist. A Catholic who happens to attend the OF but calls for kneeling at Communion, fasting on Ember Days, black vestments at funerals, conferral of the Minor Orders, veiling of women in church, papal coronations, and the doctrine of Limbo - he probably is a Traditionalist.

 

[jmjZelie]

If the Latin Mass is not available to you, then just go to the most reverent Catholic Mass that is available to you. It is true that traditional Catholics place a high priority on the Latin Mass, and for good reason, but sometimes there are personal or geographical reasons why that will not work out.

 

[JimmyG88]

Wikipedia is Wikipedia, I admit, but I think its definition of “Traditionalist Catholic” is a very good one:

The key phrase is “there should be a restoration.” A Catholic who happens to attend the EF but doesn’t care if he’s the only Catholic in the world who does - he probably is not a Traditionalist. A Catholic who happens to attend the OF but calls for kneeling at Communion, fasting on Ember Days, black vestments at funerals, conferral of the Minor Orders, veiling of women in church, papal coronations, and the doctrine of Limbo - he probably is a Traditionalist.

I wonder if you are confusing some historical practices with tradition. Many of the things you mention are no longer current practice although some are options some no longer are

 

[Bran_Stark]

I wonder if you are confusing some historical practices with tradition.

What would be the difference?

Many of the things you mention are no longer current practice although some are options some no longer are

Indeed. And it seems to me that Traditionalists are the ones who want them to be current practice, or at least options, once again.

 

[Joe_5859]

To really be traditional would entail following the Tradition as it grows and develops. So the real traditional Catholics are those that attend the ordinary form.

(runs for cover)

In all seriousness, though, definitions are going to vary a lot. I always considered myself a traditional Catholic until I came here to CAF. That’s because I hold fast to Sacred Tradition and all that the Church believes and teaches. I’ve been to Mass in Latin in the ordinary form, but never the TLM.

Around certain quarters of the internet, though, “traditional Catholic” is synonymous with a fondness for liturgical customs and the EF Mass. I generally disagree with such a reduction in the definition, but I’ve stopped referring to myself as a “traditional Catholic” to avoid confusion. I’m just Catholic.

All Catholics should embrace Tradition because it is the mode by which God reveals Himself to humanity. That Tradition does not change, but our understanding of it grows and develops just as the acorn grows into a mighty oak tree while still retaining the same substance. Part of that development is the ebbing and flowing of certain liturgical customs and popular piety.

 

[JimmyG88]

What would be the difference?

Indeed. And it seems to me that Traditionalists are the ones who want them to be current practice, or at least options, once again.

Well I suppose we could say the burning alive of widows at the husbands funeral was a historical practice rather than a tradition. Bit extreme I know but I’m multitasking :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

 

[tee_eff_em]

tee

 

[Seamus_L]

To me it means Latin Mass, no modern innovations, etc.

 

[RitasKid]

Perhaps those who look only to tradition, less value to scripture and the current magisterium. It’s possible traditional Catholic is no more a positive label than cultural Catholic or cafeteria catholic?

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

I have sincerely never understood why the venerable Catholic traditions of, say, assisting widows and orphans (see naming of the first deacons), or feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the infirm, etc. (see Matthew 25) seems not to matter at all in terms of defining “Catholic tradition,” versus, say, veiling, incense, and fiddleback vestments. So, someone who attends the most reverent and elaborate EF liturgy but ignores the needs of his fellow man, in my view, has no claim to the titles of either “Catholic” or “traditionalist.”

 

[Bran_Stark]

I have sincerely never understood why the venerable Catholic traditions of, say, assisting widows and orphans (see naming of the first deacons), or feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the infirm, etc. (see Matthew 25) seems not to matter at all in terms of defining “Catholic tradition,” versus, say, veiling, incense, and fiddleback vestments.

Because the modern-day Catholic Church still does assist widows and orphans feed the hungry and cloth the naked and visit the infirm, but has largely abandoned the other things. We need a word to refer to those who regret this abandonment, and I can’t think of a better one than “traditionalist.”

In an alternate universe where the old Mass continued after Vatican II but Catholic charity dropped dramatically, I think it would certainly be fair to call the faithful few who still cared for the poor “traditionalists.” But thankfully, that’s not the case.

 

[Seamus_L]

I personally don’t know anyone who is a regular Latin Mass attendee, who is not concerned with helping the needy.

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

Because the modern-day Catholic Church still does assist widows and orphans feed the hungry and cloth the naked and visit the infirm, but has largely abandoned the other things. We need a word to refer to those who regret this abandonment, and I can’t think of a better one than “traditionalist.”

In an alternate universe where the old Mass continued after Vatican II but Catholic charity dropped dramatically, I think it would certainly be fair to call the faithful few who still cared for the poor “traditionalists.” But thankfully, that’s not the case.

The “modern day Catholic Church” certainly does those things. In my near 70 years of experience, however, many “modern day Catholic individuals,” far less so. And we’re talking about individuals who define themselves as “traditionalists,” not the institution.

 

[Matthew125]

We need a word to refer to those who regret this abandonment, and I can’t think of a better one than “traditionalist.”

This raises, I think, an interesting point, at least to me. As a life-long Catholic who was raised after VII, I don’t have any sense of “abandonment” of tradition. To me, the Mass is, largely, the same as it was when I was a child. Intellectually I know that changes were made, but my experience of Mass is mostly the same (less the nuns with guitars, happily). I have no nostalgia for a tradition I never experienced.

Matt

 

[JimmyG88]

I have sincerely never understood why the venerable Catholic traditions of, say, assisting widows and orphans (see naming of the first deacons), or feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the infirm, etc. (see Matthew 25) seems not to matter at all in terms of defining “Catholic tradition,” versus, say, veiling, incense, and fiddleback vestments. So, someone who attends the most reverent and elaborate EF liturgy but ignores the needs of his fellow man, in my view, has no claim to the titles of either “Catholic” or “traditionalist.”

Very well put