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Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
Even Mary Magdalen was called "apostles to the apostles. That did not make her one of the twelve.
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Deacon Ed B
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Deacon Ed B
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mercygate
Guest
Right. Because the whole Church is “Apostolic” and her mission is “apostolic” and the faith she preaches through the ages is “apostolic.” One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic.
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Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
In case anyone is wondering, the word apostle, comes from the Greek apostolos which simply means witness.
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Deacon Ed B
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Deacon Ed B
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mercygate
Guest
Check that, Holy Father Deacon. “Martyr” means witness. “apostolos” means “sent.”
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Deacon_Ed_B
Guest
I do not disagree with what you say. The American Heritage Dictionary, 3rd Edition (the big one) does give several meanings, one of which is "one who is sent’. At the bottom, where it discusses the etiology of the word apostle, it says the following: From late Latin ***apostolus ***and the Greek ***apostolos ***meaning messenger. Also from apostellein meaning to send off. The two meanings describe quite adequately what the apostles did. We were both correct.
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Deacon Ed B
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BRB
Guest
Look closely at what Luke writes here.
They ask the Lord to show them who has been chosen. Then they ‘hurriedly’ decide to cast lots.
This seem so OT like. Did Christ ever teach us to make decisions based on ‘games of chance’ ? It appears Christ all along had Paul in mind for the spot … and the disciples didn’t wait for the Lord to work the miracle appointment to position that they ask the Lord to select.
Do we even today select our Popes based on similar games of chance ?
Maybe thats why we had a few problem popes in the Middle Ages.
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mercygate
Guest
This was not a “game of chance” – both candidates were fully qualified.Look closely at what Luke writes here.
They ask the Lord to show them who has been chosen. Then they ‘hurriedly’ decide to cast lots.
This seem so OT like. Did Christ ever teach us to make decisions based on ‘games of chance’ ? It appears Christ all along had Paul in mind for the spot … and the disciples didn’t wait for the Lord to work the miracle appointment to position that they ask the Lord to select.
Do we even today select our Popes based on similar games of chance ?
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Strategery
Guest
A few questions:Look closely at what Luke writes here.
They ask the Lord to show them who has been chosen. Then they ‘hurriedly’ decide to cast lots.
This seem so OT like. Did Christ ever teach us to make decisions based on ‘games of chance’ ? It appears Christ all along had Paul in mind for the spot … and the disciples didn’t wait for the Lord to work the miracle appointment to position that they ask the Lord to select.
Do we even today select our Popes based on similar games of chance ?
What is the basis for “hurriedly”?
Are you saying that the prayer of the apostles to put the decision in Christ’s hands is a game of chance? Remember, these guys walked with Christ for three years – with Matthias. Their faith is well demonstrated. They put the question to God – just as Christ had instructed them to do.
Why are we reaching beyond Scripture in this case? Matthias was added to the Twelve, and a few years later Paul received his calling. Why are we postulating that one is “correct” and the other is “not”, when both were called?
IMO the whole question places a value judgement on Matthias. We know nothing about Matthias from a Scriptural standpoint. We do about Paul because he was called to write much of the new testament.
Consider 1 Corinthians 12:4-11
I think the most correct thing to say is that they were both called, and were both apostles.
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NotWorthy
Guest
Except in the OT, the LORD commanded them to do this. It means that the Jews were trusting God to make the decision for them.Look closely at what Luke writes here.
They ask the Lord to show them who has been chosen. Then they ‘hurriedly’ decide to cast lots.
This seem so OT like. Did Christ ever teach us to make decisions based on ‘games of chance’ ? It appears Christ all along had Paul in mind for the spot … and the disciples didn’t wait for the Lord to work the miracle appointment to position that they ask the Lord to select.
Do we even today select our Popes based on similar games of chance ?
It seems that Luke and/or Paul would question the validity of the game of chance if they felt it was invalid. No where do we see this.
And again, if Christ wanted to personally choose the 12th Apostle, He had 40 days to do it.
Paul was an Apostle and a great one at that, probably the greatest! But he never included himself among “The Twelve”.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Well this is how the Jews managed to make many decisions and discern God’s will. It was all an integral part of Jewish priestly tradition and protocol. Let us not forget that it was the Jews who bring us all of OT scripture and the Davidic lineage from which Jesus came to us. Who is to say what we have today is not in part related to how lots were cast and what questions were presented to chance or as they thought then “divine will”.Look closely at what Luke writes here.
They ask the Lord to show them who has been chosen. Then they ‘hurriedly’ decide to cast lots.
This seem so OT like. Did Christ ever teach us to make decisions based on ‘games of chance’ ? It appears Christ all along had Paul in mind for the spot … and the disciples didn’t wait for the Lord to work the miracle appointment to position that they ask the Lord to select.
Do we even today select our Popes based on similar games of chance ?
Here is how it really was:
The Jewish chief priest carried sacred stones inside his breastplate, through which he sensed divine intentions. The stones gave God’s answer, determined when the ‘Yes’ or the ‘No’ stone was drawn out. King David consulted this oracular medium before going into battle: when the ‘Yes’ stone appeared, forecasting his victory over the Philistines, he set off on the warpath.
Interesting enough John Wesley, the founder of Methodism used lots to decide if and whom he should marry.
James
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BRB
Guest
Is this the way Christ taught us to make decisions ?
One might say a higher form of this is used today in selection of Popes. A democratic voting process rules … where the Church believes the H.S. guides the voting process. Still it sometimes takes many ballots to select a pope.
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BRB
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mercygate
Guest
But is not a “democratic” process (and isn’t THAT reassuring!) – the papal electors are all bishops in the succession of the apostles. “The people” don’t get a vote. Most people say that the lack of lay participation in the “big decision” of the Church is a FAULT of the Church. We think it is a STRENGTH of the Church and that it reflects most adequately the scriptural and apostolic Tradition.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Thank God that Jesus gave the Catholic Church, His Church, the promise that the gates of hell would not prevail against us. Given that the Catholic Church has been around for 2000 years and survived calamities, betrayals by apostles (Judas) and outlives all her enemies and many governments and nations is testament itself to the truthfulness of Christ’s promise.This simply comes from the power to bind and loose.
You gotta agree, though, some of the popes we had in the past would have been better selected had we used the Unimm and the Thurimm.
James
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BRB
Guest
I’m not saying it wasn’t. Matthias may of been a great addition.You seem to be presuming that the Holy Spirit was not involved in the selection of Matthias. I’m presuming that He was. That’s where we differ.
None of this has anything to do with selecting Popes.
Scripture doesn’t tell us much about him.
Its just that the whole selection of Matthias seems odd. I do think that the 11 had the authority to select replacement of Judas. And, it looks like the Church uses this first apostle selection process [in modified form] to select the Popes.
Clearly the apostles then, and todays Cardinals have the authority to make decision for the Church. And, when the process is not done hastily … it does seem the H.S. will make the correct calls. JP2 and Benedict are phenomenal.
However, a recently selected pope didn’t live very long at all. That does seem odd … if H.S. was behind that selection.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
I don’t know - go toss a coin.There you goSo his process must be right ?
We know where he got it from
But if you don’t get the answer you want on the first try its cheating and was probably considered sacraledge to keep tossing and trying the ol ’ best out of 3, 5, 7 etc. progression game to arrive at what one wants. By the way, I recollect a modern variation on this when I went to a non-denominational Christian men’s fellowship meeting decades ago. Before the hat was passed to collect contributions the protestant leader asked that we all first stand up and pray. So he asked somone to randomly open their KJV and read a passage but then pointed to me since I was standing closest to him. When I stood up with my Catholic Bible (New American Standard) and opened it randomly it landed on an old testament book. As I started reading a passage from the Book of Wisdom (a passage that no Protestant had had since it is Deuterocanonical book) he panicked and said “wait we Protestants don’t have Wisdom” (I has to smile from ear to ear as I heard a few nervous coughs and throat clearing in the audience). He then walked up, flipped my bible randomly to the back in the NT area and told me to read again. He winced again as I started to read: **“The Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church…” ** but had to shut up and listen as even a few protestants had to laugh, groan and shake their heads at their poor luck.
Little did he know that my bible had the deck stacked so to speak since I read those passages often and the binding has a page memory for opening up there.
Does God use loaded dice?
James
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BRB
Guest
Funny story.he panicked and said “wait we Protestants don’t have Wisdom” (I has to smile from ear to ear as I heard a few nervous coughs and throat clearing in the audience). He then walked up, flipped my bible randomly to the back in the NT area and told me to read again.
Little did he know that my bible had the deck stacked so to speak since I read those passages often and the binding has a page memory for opening up there.
Does God use loaded dice?
James
Yes, usually the dice are loaded !!! God can manipulate laws of gravity whenever it suits his purposes … in both OT and NT times.
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