Who said this??

[Lisa4Catholics]

Tlaloc:

I don’t consider relativism to be something suffered so much as realized, but whatever.

Truth =/= morality
The statement “abortions occur” is objective truth
The statement “Abortions are bad” is a subjective moral judgement

Truth=morality
Jefery dalmer raped and ate people
What he did was bad very bad
If someone steals your car because they think it is okay
It is wrong regardless of what their subjective moral judgement might be.Truth is always truth it can never change nor can it be changed,just because a majority are wrong will it never make them right.God bless

 

[Tlaloc]

“my definition” hence makes this a subjective argument? So you you only have an opinion, not a fact to point to.

Yes the fact that you have to rely upon a subjective definition means the argument is itself subjective. Thats pretty elementary logic. Yes I have only an opinion, as do you, thats what “subjective” means. Are we all on the same page now?

fetus is the latin word for…baby.

Neat.

You don’t believe in objective truth?? You think that truth is defined by a majority public opinion?? Does life have meaning?? Not subjective meaning, but Meaning BEFORE you and I have opinions about how meaningful or unmeaningful somethiing is???

Sure I believe in objective truths. The Earth is round. But if you insist the world being round is bad that is not objective. It’s your personal evaluation of the shape of the Earth.

When exactly does the baby, er, uh, fetus, become more than a “blob of tissue”, objectively speaking, of course??

We aren’t speaking objectively. I’m not saying my defintion is objective and yours isn’t. Both definitions are subjective. According to my subjective definition since a human being is a seoparate organism a fetus becomes human once it is developed enough to live disconnected from the mother’s blood supply.

 

[Tlaloc]

Lisa4Catholics:

Truth=morality

Sorry but no. Morality varies widely. Truth does not.

Jefery dalmer raped and ate people
What he did was bad very bad

yes, subjectively.

If someone steals your car because they think it is okay
It is wrong regardless of what their subjective moral judgement

No but I may think it’s bad because of my subjective judgement.

Truth is always truth it can never change nor can it be changed,

Indeed which is entirely different than morality which changes by location, population, social structure, and with time.

just because a majority are wrong will it never make them right.God bless

Of course not because you’ve engaged in a tautology.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Tlaloc:

Sorry but no. Morality varies widely. Truth does not.

yes, subjectively.

No but I may think it’s bad because of my subjective judgement.

Indeed which is entirely different than morality which changes by location, population, social structure, and with time.

Of course not because you’ve engaged in a tautology.

Tlaloc murder is bad,evil wrong truth!Unborn children are human,persons not dogs or cats, to murder them is wrong, bad evil.You can put any kind of spin you want on it it does not change the truth.To you truth and morality is relative besed on your personal belief,period.

 

[Tlaloc]

Lisa4Catholics:

Tlaloc murder is bad,evil wrong truth!

I believe “Double plus un-good” is the prefered terminology.

Unborn children are human,persons not dogs or cats, to murder them is wrong, bad evil.

As before you are welcome to your opinion, I just point out it is an opinion and not fact.

You can put any kind of spin you want on it it does not change the truth.To you truth and morality is relative besed on your personal belief,period.

As before Truth is indeed invariant. Morality vaires quite a lot. There is not one taboo you can think of that has not be an accepted part of one or another societies morality. Even in our own society killing is accepted in certain situations and not in others. Why is it okay sometimes? Because of subjective choices we make.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Tlaloc:

I believe “Double plus un-good” is the prefered terminology.

As before you are welcome to your opinion, I just point out it is an opinion and not fact.

As before Truth is indeed invariant. Morality vaires quite a lot. There is not one taboo you can think of that has not be an accepted part of one or another societies morality. Even in our own society killing is accepted in certain situations and not in others. Why is it okay sometimes? Because of subjective choices we make.

Start a thread Tlaloc

 

[jlw]

Tlaloc:

Sure I believe in objective truths. The Earth is round. But if you insist the world being round is bad that is not objective. It’s your personal evaluation of the shape of the Earth.

Do you believe philosophically that life has meaning before you and I give it meaning??

 

[Tlaloc]

jlw:

Do you believe philosophically that life has meaning before you and I give it meaning??

What would my subjective beliefs on the matter prove?

But for the record, no, I don’t believe life has a meaning. I believe it has a multitude of possibilities.

 

[Tlaloc]

Lisa4Catholics:

Start a thread Tlaloc

I have a thread on abortion, Lisa. Or do you mean specifically on the difference between objective facts and subjective beliefs?

 

[jlw]

Tlaloc:

What would my subjective beliefs on the matter prove?

But for the record, no, I don’t believe life has a meaning. I believe it has a multitude of possibilities.

Well, this is where we depart. God, er, I mean…secular humanist blessings!

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Tlaloc:

I have a thread on abortion, Lisa. Or do you mean specifically on the difference between objective facts and subjective beliefs?

No I mean what is truth

 

[Tlaloc]

Lisa4Catholics:

No I mean what is truth

To discuss truth we have to make a distinction between the objective and the subjective, that’s what I keep having to point out to you. Assuming your personal beliefs are objective facts is how people become tyrants.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Tlaloc:

To discuss truth we have to make a distinction between the objective and the subjective, that’s what I keep having to point out to you. Assuming your personal beliefs are objective facts is how people become tyrants.

Start a thread Tlaloc jlw started this one and it has been hijacked I am sorry for my part jlw, and while we are at it you can put the tyrant comment on there too!Especially since you support the biggest tyrannical movement the world has ever known.

 

[sweetchuck]

Lisa4Catholics:

No I mean what is truth

Tlaloc:

To discuss truth we have to make a distinction between the objective and the subjective, that’s what I keep having to point out to you. Assuming your personal beliefs are objective facts is how people become tyrants.

Nicely done, Tlaloc. I think that’s the same point Pontius Pilate was making before he washed his hands. (don’t get all in a huff, I’m comparing you WITH Pilate, not saying you ARE equivalent in deed.) Relativism is exactly the point Pilate was making before he handed Jesus over. But then again, you’re not a Catholic or a Christian (right?), so I don’t know if that observation will have an impact.

 

[Lance]

The law of bio-genisis states that dogs reproduce dogs, cats reproduce cats, birds reproduce birds and humans reproduce humans. A human can not reproduce and make anything except another human. We can’t make dogs, cats, birds or fish. It must be human.

You say that an embryo is not human? Why not?

If it is because of it’s size then you are arguing that “Shac” O’Neil is more human than Hillary Clinton.(Lets not go there)

If it is because of location I would argue that if you are out on your morning jog and see a toddler out in the yard in pajamas and it is 10 degrees you are not allowed to just continue on you jog and ignore the child. It is a human and is no less a human just because it is in an environment where it can not survive, you must return it to an environment where it can, like back inside the house.

If you say it is not human because it can not survive without its mother(external support), I say are you any less human in an airplane at 30,000 feet? You can not survive without the oxygen and cabin pressurization which is external support.

It is human from the moment of conception and should be given all the protections of anyother human. This is Church doctrine and what I believe.

 

[timbo1980]

Tlaloc,

Your arguements beg a question, is there any action a human can commit that would be objectively immoral?

If yes, what would it be since you have already stated that murder and cannibalism are not objectively wrong.

If no, then on what basis are the laws and rules of society to be based? Or are you in favor of Anarchy?

You seem to use scientific findings as all your examples of truth. But scientific findings change with the times and are proven wrong. Examples of this can be found in all areas of science, from Astronomy, to Chemistry, to Physics, to Quantum Mechanics.

And these sciences all teach us that there are Objective rules that govern the universe, even if we don’t understand them yet.

Likewise there is objective truth when it comes to morals. It is called Natural Law - Any lawyer should be able to tell you about this as the laws of our country and most countries are supposed to be based upon Natural Law. Do some research.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

timbo1980:

Tlaloc,

Your arguements beg a question, is there any action a human can commit that would be objectively immoral?

If yes, what would it be since you have already stated that murder and cannibalism are not objectively wrong.

If no, then on what basis are the laws and rules of society to be based? Or are you in favor of Anarchy?

You seem to use scientific findings as all your examples of truth. But scientific findings change with the times and are proven wrong. Examples of this can be found in all areas of science, from Astronomy, to Chemistry, to Physics, to Quantum Mechanics.

And these sciences all teach us that there are Objective rules that govern the universe, even if we don’t understand them yet.

Likewise there is objective truth when it comes to morals. It is called Natural Law - Any lawyer should be able to tell you about this as the laws of our country and most countries are supposed to be based upon Natural Law. Do some research.

Timbo1980,sweetchuck and Lance I wanted to let you know that Tlaloc has started a thread if you want to participate.It is in moral theology and he called it Lisa’s truth thread God Bless

 

[Lisa_N]

Lisa4Catholics:

Timbo1980,sweetchuck and Lance I wanted to let you know that Tlaloc has started a thread if you want to participate.It is in moral theology and he called it Lisa’s truth thread God Bless

All of the usual suspects are there. Join us

Lisa N

 

[Tlaloc]

Lisa4Catholics:

Timbo1980,sweetchuck and Lance I wanted to let you know that Tlaloc has started a thread if you want to participate.It is in moral theology and he called it Lisa’s truth thread God Bless

Yes I probably won’t deal with any more posts addressed to me in this thread, please do post them in the other one.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Tlaloc:

Yes I probably won’t deal with any more posts addressed to me in this thread, please do post them in the other one.

Why Tlaloc?Which one?