Who saved us?

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NoelFitz

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I read in 2 Tim 1
8 Do not be ashamed, then, of the testimony about our Lord or of me his prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel, relying on the power of God, 9 who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works but according to his own purpose and grace. This grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel (NRSV, 2 Tim 1:8–10).
I have a few questions.

Who is our Savior in 2 Tim, in the PE (1 Tim, 2 Tim, Tit), in all of Paul, in the NT?
Is it God, Jesus or both?
What were we saved from according to these texts?
How were we saved?

Is it enough to say God saved us due to his free gift of grace or to say Jesus saved us by his life, suffering and death.? Should his resurrection be included? Also were we given grace before the ages began (predestination vs free will)?

Jesus* brought life… through the gospel*; this presumably does not mean Scripture, but the good news of his life and death.

Basically explain to me what the above verses mean, please.
 
To answer your one question, yes, the Resurrection is part of the “redeeming work of Christ,” according to the Catechism. Paragraph 1067 reads: "the wonderful works of God among the people of the Old Testament were but a prelude to the work of Christ the Lord in redeeming mankind and giving perfect glory to God. He accomplished this work principally by the Paschal mystery of his blessed Passion, Resurrection from the dead, and glorious Ascension, whereby 'dying he destroyed our death, rising he restored our life."
 
I read in 2 Tim 1

I have a few questions.

Who is our Savior in 2 Tim, in the PE (1 Tim, 2 Tim, Tit), in all of Paul, in the NT?
Is it God, Jesus or both?
What were we saved from according to these texts?
How were we saved?

Is it enough to say God saved us due to his free gift of grace or to say Jesus saved us by his life, suffering and death.? Should his resurrection be included? Also were we given grace before the ages began (predestination vs free will)?

Jesus* brought life… through the gospel*; this presumably does not mean Scripture, but the good news of his life and death.

Basically explain to me what the above verses mean, please.
Being the 2nd Person in the Holy Trinity - Jesus IS God.
 
=NoelFitz;6964659]I read in 2 Tim 1
I have a few questions.
Who is our Savior in 2 Tim, in the PE (1 Tim, 2 Tim, Tit), in all of Paul, in the NT?
Is it God, Jesus or both?
What were we saved from according to these texts?
How were we saved?
God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are ONE GOD; three Divine Persons [the way God choose to make Himself known and present to us] and all salvation flows through the Person of Jesus Christ.

**Heb. 5: 8 -9 **"Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered; and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,

Acts 4: 10-12
“be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by him this man is standing before you well. This is the stone which was rejected by you builders, but which has become the head of the corner. *** And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” ***

**Matt. 3:13-17 **Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness.” Then he consented. And when Jesus [God the Son] was baptized, he went up imediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, [God the Holy SPirit] and alighting on him; and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, “This is my beloved Son, [God the Father] with whom I am well pleased.”

As to what we were “saved from”

Salvation is a PROCESS NOT AN ACCOMPLISHED FACT [AS IN COMPLETED FOR THOSE WHO SIMPLY PROFESS BELIEF]

What Jesus accomplished by HIS Life, Death, and Ressurection is humanities “REDEEMPTION” [which is seperate from “Salvation.”]

**Rom.3: 1.24 **"they [WE] are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,

**1Cor.1:30 **He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom, our righteousness and sanctification and redemption;

**Eph.1:7 **"In him we have redemption through his blood,[LIFE, DEATH AND RESSURECTION] the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace

SEE: 1 Jn.1:8-10; 1 Jn.5:16-17 and John 20: 20-23 [Jesus Himself saying it is so!]

Col.1:14
"in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. [AS A POSIBILITY…SEE ABOVE]

Heb.9: 12 "he [JESUS] entered once for all into the Holy Place,[Catholic Tabernacal] taking not the blood of goats and calves but his own blood, **thus securing an eternal redemption. **

Were Salvation a done deal based on Faith Alone [OSAS] none of the following could appear in the Bible. BUR IT’S THERE!

Take Up your Cross and Follow Me

Phil.2: 8 “And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross Luke.9 :23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Mark.8: 34 And he called to him the multitude with his disciples, and said to them, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. Luke.9: 23 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. Luke.14: 7 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” Matt.5: 19 “Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. “ Matt.19: 17 “And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. ***If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” ***

NONE of these permit a personal thelogy of OSAS which did not even exist for the first 1600 years of Christianity! It’s a modern day HOAX!

Further the JOHN verses given above also disprove this errant theology. NO ONE BIBLE VERSE CAN CONTRADICT ANOTHER, and yet 2 Tim. 3:16-17 is ignored with seeming impunity. FINAL JUDGEMENT IS COMMING and God must be JUST!

2Tim.3 Verses 16 to 17:
*** “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching,*** for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”

Sacred Scripture AND as well as the Life, Death, Ressurection tell the same thing!

Predestination denies who and what God by Divine unchangeable Nature are.

This term is to understood as KNOWING BEFORE HAND; [which only God can do] and has nouthing to do with effecting the decisions that we FREELY make.[READ Isa. 43: v.7 and v. 21].

God in an absolute sense could not give to humanity alone: The free Spiritual Gifts see Gen.1 26-27] of a mind, and a intellect and a freewill; given to us precisely so that WE COULD AND WOULD DECIDE FOR OURSELVES OUR ETERNAL PLACE OF “REST”… HEAVEN OR HELL. WE DECIDE NOT GOD, WHO ONLY AFFIRMS OUR DECISION.

Hope you find this helpful…it’s all Biblically supported.

Love and prayers,
Pat
 
PJM,

Many thanks for your detailed and deep reply to my query. I am grateful to you, and others here, who reply on such a detailed and Catholic way to my queries.

I accept there is one God, but in that God there are three divine persons really distinct and equal in all things. One usually assigns creation to the Father, salvation to the Son, and sanctification/consolation to the Spirit. In seems strange (almost like Nietzche) to talk of the death of God, but the dearth of Jesus on the cross is acceptable.

Quoting Heb 5:8-9 is dangerous as it may sound like adoptionism.

In Acts 4:10-12 God and Jesus Christ seem to be distinguished. Here clearly Jesus is understood as Savior. This pericope very nicely shows the actions of the three person of the Trinity. Thanks!

Salvation is a huge topic and not resolved by sound bites. Essentially we are saved from sin, original and actual. Baptism puts us into the state of grace. Hence…

You are subtle in distinguishing redemption and salvation. I need to think more about this.
Thanks again for challenging me. Where does justification and being made righteous fit in?

Again predestination is a huge issue. It has challenged the best minds for hundreds of years.

Finally I was reminded of what Fr Shall wrote:
Benedict, in another context, cites the famous passage from his favorites, Augustine: “Si comprehendis, non est Deus” (#38) — roughly, “if your idea of God claims to totally comprehend God, then your idea is not God at all.” In other words, if we would love God and one another, as we should, we must be open to what God reveals to us about Himself. ignatiusinsight.com/features2006/schall_encyclical_jan06.asp
So PJ thank you so much for opening up my understanding to the depths of the Bible
 
Comments on the previous post…
I accept there is one God, but in that God there are three divine persons really distinct and equal in all things. One usually assigns creation to the Father, salvation to the Son, and sanctification/consolation to the Spirit. In seems strange (almost like Nietzche) to talk of the death of God, but the dearth of Jesus on the cross is acceptable.
The death of Jesus on the Cross was the Human Nature of God [Jesus], not His Divine nature which is, was and always will be.
Quoting Heb 5:8-9 is dangerous as it may sound like adoptionism.
**Heb.5 Verses 8 to 9: **“Although he was a Son, he learned obedience through what he suffered; and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,”

Valid point. But again one ought to keep in mind that Christ was at the same time and in entirety both God and man; having an “independent” human nature and a Godly Nature.

God’s Nature being Perfect in everyway, affirms this passage as being the Human nature of Christ that “learned.” This learning was not learning the facts of the matter; rather the learning deals with experiencing first hand in His human nature. It is the Devine Nature of Christ combined in His now Gloriously Risen body, that Salvation flows through.
In Acts 4:10-12 God and Jesus Christ seem to be distinguished. Here clearly Jesus is understood as Savior. This pericope very nicely shows the actions of the three person of the Trinity. Thanks!
Acts.4 Verses 10 to 12: “be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by him this man is standing before you well. This is the stone which was rejected by you builders, but which has become the head of the corner. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Another solid point.

But the Risen Jesus and the Devine Jesus are one and the same entity. There no-longer is a theological bases for separating them. Both His Devine nature and His now perfected human nature can act as one.
Salvation is a huge topic and not resolved by sound bites. Essentially we are saved from sin, original and actual. Baptism puts us into the state of grace. Hence
You are subtle in distinguishing redemption and salvation. I need to think more about this.…
This is a HUGE point in understanding the fallacy of the recent innovative OSAS theology. Certainly all Salvation indeed flows through Christ; BUT by His life, death and Resurrection, the goal accomplished by Jesus was the re-opening of the gates to heaven. Access to heaven was once again a possibility.Matt.22:14; Matt. 7:13-14].

While Faith remains a necessary step to our salvation; it is but one of the necessary steps. Humanity must also apply there Spiritual gifts of “mind, intellect, freewill, and soul” in the manner desired by God, as evidence of our love for Him.

In addition of course are Christian Baptism **[Jn. 3:5, ] **keeping ALL of the Commandments [Mt. 19:17], seeking forgiveness for our sins in thee manner dictated by Christ Himself Jn. 20-19-23], and love of neighbor born out in good-works.
Thanks again for challenging me. Where does justification and being made righteous fit in?
Justification has the role of humanity freely choosing [with acceptance of the grace of God] to know, love and serve God. This is the right and intended use of our “minds, intellects, freewils and souls.” By freely choosing and doing God’s Will God permits one to merit Justification.
Again predestination is a huge issue. It has challenged the best minds for hundreds of years.
***It’s a interesting topic, that denies why we were Created exactly as we are. Consider:

There are BILLIONS of stars and planes BUT only one; earth can sustain life

On planet earth there are HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of living things; BUT only one; humanity has what is needed to know, love and serve God by free-choice. Predestination ignores these facts, and that God’s Devine and Perfect nature could not allow Him to Create humanity with these God-like attributes, and then not permit there use. Predestination is a denial that God by God’s very nature MUST BE just.***

Love and prayers,
Pat
 
PJM

You wrote:
God’s Nature being Perfect in everyway
And
Human Nature of God
Simply put:

God is spirit; he is the creator not a creature.

The Father is not the son, he is not a man; he is spirit.
The Son is both spirit (God) and man.
The Holy Spirit is not a man, or a bird, he is spirit.

In the Trinity there are three really distinct and equal persons.

Jesus is one person in two natures.
The Father is one person in one nature,
the Holy Spirit is one person in one nature.

I cannot grasp this. But I do not think anyone can.
 
The Lord God saved us. The Lord God did this through the death of the Incarnate Word, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity of the Lord God.

Genesis 2:4 “This is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,”

Isaiah 45:21 “ll and bring forth your case;
Yes, let them take counsel together.
Who has declared this from ancient time?
Who has told it from that time?
Have not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me.”

1 Timothy 1:1 “Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the commandment of God our Savior and the Lord Jesus Christ, our hope,”
 
Hope3,

I am not sure of the points you are making. The discussion is about *Savior *not Lord

In the OT *Lord *is God, in the NT Lord or LORD is (usually) Jesus.

However the author of 1 Tim and Tit uses Savior as referring to God. This is unusual, and hence interesting. Thus the whole point of this discussion, when Savior, *not Lord (or LORD) *is bein discussed.

In all 25 occcurrences in the NT of Savior most refer to Jesus Christ.

The exceptions are the Magnificat, which has OT resonances (cf. The Song of Hannah) and the PEs.

In 1 Tim Savior refers only to God (3 times)
In 2 Tim Savior refers to Jesus only (once)
In Tit Savior refers th both Od and Jesus equally (3 times each).
 
=NoelFitz;6969091]PJM
You wrote:
Simply put:
God is spirit; he is the creator not a creature.
The Father is not the son, he is not a man; he is spirit.
The Son is both spirit (God) and man.
The Holy Spirit is not a man, or a bird, he is spirit.
In the Trinity there are three really distinct and equal persons.
Jesus is one person in two natures.
The Father is one person in one nature,
the Holy Spirit is one person in one nature.
I cannot grasp this. But I do not think anyone can.
My friend the greatest minds of th past 2,000 years could not fuly understand it or explain it. It is after all a Divine Mystery:) But you get it:thumbsup:

Rom.11: [20] "That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief,** but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. **

[23] And even the others, if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again"
 
Hope3,

I am not sure of the points you are making. The discussion is about *Savior *not Lord

In the OT *Lord *is God, in the NT Lord or LORD is (usually) Jesus.

However the author of 1 Tim and Tit uses Savior as referring to God. This is unusual, and hence interesting. Thus the whole point of this discussion, when Savior, *not Lord (or LORD) *is bein discussed.

In all 25 occcurrences in the NT of Savior most refer to Jesus Christ.

The exceptions are the Magnificat, which has OT resonances (cf. The Song of Hannah) and the PEs.

In 1 Tim Savior refers only to God (3 times)
In 2 Tim Savior refers to Jesus only (once)
In Tit Savior refers th both Od and Jesus equally (3 times each).
God is our Savior, however, the second Person of the Godhead actually came to earth in a human body and died for our sins in order to save us. Since God is divine and has no body, one of the three Persons needed to become Incarnate in order to be able to die physically on earth for our sins.

Thomas states: **John 20:28 **"28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

But, the Lord God is three Persons and always will be all three Persons.

Revelation 11:17 “We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.” Revelation 15:3

The Jews did not like to say “God” since this Name was so holy to them and this may be why you hear Jesus called “Lord” more often than “God” or Son of God.

This may also explain why Matthew’s gospel uses “kingdom of heaven” much more often than “kingdom of God” (he was writing to the Hebrews/Jews).
 
PJM,

Thanks.

I am reminded of the words of Augustine, quoted by B XVI in Deus Caritas Est:
It is Saint Augustine who gives us faith’s answer to our sufferings: “Si comprehendis, non est Deus”—”if you understand him, he is not God.”
We cannot understand God.
 
If any person is interested, I just finished a Scripture Study called Who is the Holy Trinity of the Lord God? It can be accessed at www.understandingscripture.com/

I try to explain, using Scripture, why we believe that the Lord God is Holy, Infinite, Immortal, Omnipotent, Omnipresent, and Omniscient and also how the three Persons of the Holy Trinity work together as One Lord God. Of course, it is impossible for our finite minds to fully understand the infinite God, but we can and should attempt to learn more about Him.
 
Hope3,

You are Christian by name and Christian by nature.

Thanks for your solid and comprehensive study.

I like the shamrock explanation.
 
I like these Scriptures also:

Titus 3:4-7 “But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”

We who are on earth “encounter” God through His Son Jesus Christ (our Mediator between God and Man, because only Jesus is both God and Man).

Ephesians 3:9 “and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;”

2 Corinthians 5:18 “Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,”

Romans 5:21 " so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

**1 Peter 2:**5 “you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.”

Hebrews 13:20-21 “Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.”
 
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