Who says one organization today is "The True Church"

[jmcrae]

It is a fact that this is what the Catholic organization claims concerning itself.

However…

Just because a person or organization makes certain claims concerning itself, it does not follow that these claims are the truth.

It is even more likely that organizations not claiming it, haven’t got it. So, it makes very little sense to join an organization that doesn’t even claim to know what it is talking about, just because you assume that, because the Catholic Church claims to know what it is talking about, that therefore, it must be lying. (Because to claim to know what you are talking about in a world that glorifies ignorance and uncertainty as virtues is arrogant, indeed.)

 

[AmateurPianist]

We claim these truths because they are verifiable by historic documents, beginning with the Bible. The Church has taught this, and her members have believed it, since the original Apostles still walked the earth. There are some that have had no problems taking this by faith and believing…sight unseen. I was not such a person. I spent years doing the research, and that’s what I’ve recommended you do, and continue to recommend. It is very easy to sit behind your keyboard and question everything anyone says. It is a very different thing to take the extensive amounts of time to do the research yourself. I don’t think that there’s much that any of us can or will say, in and of itself, that will change your mind. That’s God’s job. The key though, is that in all of the research you do, keep an open mind, and begin each session with prayer, that you may be open to the Truth that God has to reveal to you. This will likely not be a short process, but I wish you Godspeed. We are here to help you, of course, and that’s what we’re trying to do, but you have to do some of the work yourself, even if it’s just lots of prayer time submitting yourself to the Will of God. If all you do is decide that there is no way to know, and close your mind, you are playing God yourself… and them’s dangerous waters.

Please take the above the way it was intended. I’m not rebuking you, nor am I judging you. I don’t claim to know your heart or where you’re coming from, so all I have to respond to is what I perceive from your posts. I do want to help, but don’t fall into the trap of the proverb I quoted to you earlier…

Here is the rub.

As I think about it, any research and yes prayer that one does in this regard must have certain nonnegotiable groundrules that you will not move from. Otherwise…

What is to prevent me from taking the LDS up on their offer to pray about the book of Mormon…then getting the “burning in my bosom” and becoming LDS?

Or what is to prevent me from taking this a step further and researching whether Christianity is correct and becoming an agnostic?

You may laugh, but that has happened to some. I have read the testimonies. I don’t want to go there.

My nonnegotiable groundrules are
(1) The Bible is what it claims to be…the Word of God. I do not know of anything else that has that level of reliability. Therefore to obey the verse in my signature, I examine everything carefully through Scripture.
(2) I know what God has done in my life. I am not revising that at all. Any proposed belief that goes against that will get chucked (this is Wesley interpreting Scripture through the light of experience).

My beliefs about what the Bible actually teaches are subject to being crosschecked since they have been shown to be wrong in the past and certainly will be shown to be wrong in the future.

As far as changing churches go, it is not an area that I am actively seeking God about at this time because I believe strongly that He has led me to the local body where I am at, and I sense His presence and using me in small little ways to advance His kingdom on earth. However I might move in the future, and that would be a perfect opportunity to revisit this since I am not particularly married to one particular organization.

I am open to studying church history because I have recently come to a belief that my Christian beliefs should have a historical basis. New creative ways of looking at God’s Word that negate 2000 years of church history are always not a good idea (that includes the Calvinist who was here that believed in gay marriage). This lines up with Wesley who believed that the Bible should be interpreted through history. So studying church history will be a little project that I have started and will continue throughout the coming years.

 

[AmateurPianist]

It is even more likely that organizations not claiming it, haven’t got it. So, it makes very little sense to join an organization that doesn’t even claim to know what it is talking about, just because you assume that, because the Catholic Church claims to know what it is talking about, that therefore, it must be lying. (Because to claim to know what you are talking about in a world that glorifies ignorance and uncertainty as virtues is arrogant, indeed.)

Unless of course the actual truth from God’s perspective is that no organization is “The True Church”. If that is the truth from God’s perspective, then the organizations that are not claiming to be “The True Church” are the ones that are the more accurate.

So the absolute first step is to verify whether it is absolutely necessary that one and only one organization be the one true church. Only if the answer to that question is “yes” do you go on to the next question which would be one of metrics.

 

[jmcrae]

Unless of course the actual truth from God’s perspective is that no organization is “The True Church”. If that is the truth from God’s perspective, then the organizations that are not claiming to be “The True Church” are the ones that are the more accurate.

Would you hire a prospective employee on that basis? Or a lawyer, or a real estate agent?

This is much more important than business, law, or real estate - this has to do with the fate of our immortal souls. Therefore, the ones that don’t even have the basic qualifications listed on their resume - nice people though they may be - are not even going to get an interview, let alone hired - not by me, anyway.

So the absolute first step is to verify whether it is absolutely necessary that one and only one organization be the one true church.

John 17. “Let them be one.”

Acts 15. “Let letters be sent from us to all the churches, that they may be in one accord.”

Nicea 325. One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

 

[rev_kevin]

Interesting post? Did you know that the LDS mormon Church is the official religion of the United States that Congress passed and approved? Funny how you should bring up political parties in the U.S and Compare them to God’s preferences?

**2000 years ago Jesus spoke these words from Matthew 16:16-19 **on whom he will build his Church upon. And it was never a political party preference, country, nation. Jesus built his Church upon Peter and his apostles which is the 2000 year old Catholic Church. There is no comparison to political parties to the body of Jesus Christ in his Catholic church.

There is only One Faith built upon Peter and the apostles which is the pillar of Truth, which is the body of Jesus Christ which is ever present body, blood, soul and divinity in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Ephesians 4:4 one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Give unto Ceasar what belongs to Ceasar, and give unto God what belongs to God;

May I ask where you got your information that the offical religion in the United States is LDS mormons that was passed and approved by congress from?

 

[hillsteven]

Unless of course the actual truth from God’s perspective is that no organization is “The True Church”. If that is the truth from God’s perspective, then the organizations that are not claiming to be “The True Church” are the ones that are the more accurate.

So the absolute first step is to verify whether it is absolutely necessary that one and only one organization be the one true church. Only if the answer to that question is “yes” do you go on to the next question which would be one of metrics.

Which takes us right back where we started, I think. Who is it that would be the final earthly authority on this? (God is of course the absolute final authority, but I presume that you’re trying to find an answer while you’re still here on Earth.) The Church claims to have this authority, you claim that you don’t believe it. That seems like a good place to start. For whatever reason, you have been drawn to this site, which is of course going to be, at least in a general sense, biased in favor of the Catholic Church. I think that we’ve produced some fairly compelling arguments. You remain skeptical, which is understandable.

Several of us have shown you where, in both history and in the Bible, God has established a single church, that this church was intended to be a tangibly singular entity, and that this was the understanding by ALL Christians for centuries. It is also true that we are starting to see the very beginnings in our lifetime now of some of those splinters beginning to fold back into the Catholic Church. (For instance, the Anglican Church has been invited back in, en mass within the past few months).

Now you need to do the same digging we’ve done. I’d be happy to recommend some books to you as a good starting-off point if you want to PM me.

I wish you now, as I always have, the very best. May God continue to bless you in your life and your journey.

~Steven

 

[SteveVH]

May I ask where you got your information that the offical religion in the United States is LDS mormons that was passed and approved by congress from?

Yeah, I’d like to see that also. Might be a reason to call the ACLU.:bigyikes:

 

[AmateurPianist]

Would you hire a prospective employee on that basis? Or a lawyer, or a real estate agent?

I don’t do hiring.

But on the other hand I also would not hire somebody if they were feeding me what I knew was BS. In fact given a choice I might prefer the one who is under the line instead of one who is over the top, but that is just me.

So then the issue is whether the claims of one true church are actually God’s truth or BS (sorry for the vernacular but that is the analogy from a hiring perspective).

 

[AmateurPianist]

Several of us have shown you where, in both history and in the Bible, God has established a single church,

…which I agree with. Now I do not believe any one of us has more of an intrinsic claim on this single church than anybody else but that is secondary.

that this church was intended to be a tangibly singular entity,

Which I think I also agree with. We may disagree how this single entity would look like but that is secondary.

.
and that this was the understanding by ALL Christians for centuries.

And this would be perfectly logically until the century of the first point in time in which the one church split. I know this would be no later than the 400s with the Oriental Orthodox. It might possibly be earlier. Anyway, after this point in time is what is of particular interest to me.

.
It is also true that we are starting to see the very beginnings in our lifetime now of some of those splinters beginning to fold back into the Catholic Church. (For instance, the Anglican Church has been invited back in, en mass within the past few months).

I do not negate the possibility of a future time when God unifies the various splinters. How He would do it would be just speculation on my part.

 

[wisdomseeker]

It is a fact that this is what the Catholic organization claims concerning itself.

However…

Just because a person or organization makes certain claims concerning itself, it does not follow that these claims are the truth.

It is your opinion and the opinion of likeminded Catholics here, that these claims are in fact the truth of God. It is my opinion that these claims are not substantiated and proven.

I don’t think any of us can prove our opinions are indeed facts, but I’m open to being wrong here. The best we can hope to do is to give evidence for our respective opinions and to give good reasons why our opinions are our dearly held beliefs. At least that is my opinion.

I admit that the word opinion is sort-of a loaded word. The word “belief” might have been less loaded.

I guess you can turn to Israel and deny their claims that they alone were given the Word, the Prophets, the Law, and the promises. you could use the same logic you are using with us. too bad you cannot make a connection between the Church and Israel.

oh well, what can i do.

martin luther
“Noblemen, townsmen, peasants, all classes understand the Evangelium better than I or St. Paul; they are now wise and think themselves more learned than all the ministers.”
Walch XIV, 1360. quoted in O’Hare, Ibid, 209.

 

[jmcrae]

I don’t do hiring.

But on the other hand I also would not hire somebody if they were feeding me what I knew was BS.

You’re assuming it’s BS. You haven’t actually checked.

In fact given a choice I might prefer the one who is under the line instead of one who is over the top, but that is just me.

Only if your goal is to go out of business.

So then the issue is whether the claims of one true church are actually God’s truth or BS (sorry for the vernacular but that is the analogy from a hiring perspective).

That’s when you start checking references. A good place to start is The Faith of the Early Fathers, translated by William Jurgens.

 

[sablouwho]

The Catholic Church is the world’s largest, and Christianity’s oldest, religious body. Her 1.4 Billion members inhabit the width and breadth of the earth, comprising almost one-fifth of the total human population. She is far and away the most popular religious concept the world has ever known And the CC is one and the body of Christ

I certainly don’t dispute the size and age of the CC, but I am tripping over what I believe to be an unspoken implication, which, I think, if I am reading this as the poster had intended, is that because the CC is the largest religion and the oldest form of Christianity, it is therefore the True form of Christianity. Well, it is possible that this is true, but I think that these specific facts can lead us to committing one, possibly two, logical fallacies.

It seems we cannot use the *size *of the Church to prove anything because of a rule of logica called Argumentum ad Numeram: A fallacy that asserts that the more people who support or believe a proposition then the more likely that that proposition is correct; it equates mass support with correctness. Think about it–when Christianity was just an upstart Jewish sect, I assume it was relatively modest in number of adherents when compared with, say, for example, Roman paganism. At that time in history, using size at the criteria would have us concluding that the pagans must be right because there were so many of them compared with this smallish Jewish sect!

It’s less clear to me as to whether the Church’s standing as the oldest form of Christianity can be used. This is in part* because there is another rule of logic called Argumentum ad Antiquitam:

A fallacy of asserting that something is right or good simply because it is old; that is, because “that’s the way it’s always been.”

BUT – I do think that there is something about the founding of the church and the passing of the baton through the ages. I just don’t know enough about logic to know if there is a way to “cleanly” argue age without getting into a logical mess. AmateurPianist–you seem to be pretty good at logic–perhaps you could chime in? (I am not even sure if apostolic succession “counts” as “age” or whether they are two different things.)

This is not to say that there are no good arguments to be made that support the Catholic Church’s contention that it is the True Church. But it is easy to fall into making claims that go against logic.

---

*I said “in part” above, because I would also imagine that some would say that the Orthodox Church was the original church, and that the CC is the offshoot of the main vine. I don’t personally claim to know enough of the history to be able to speak intelligently on it, so I will not even attempt to make any arguments for that one!)

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

That is all very nice. But bold face font notwithstanding, it ultimately is your opinion and your own personal interpretation of these Scriptures.

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Ephesians 4:4 one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

I have not given any interpretation to these scriptures; where did you get that idea? Or do these scriptures speak the truth against your theology of what a church is from face value? Because I have not given you any such interpretation, please feel free to interpret them.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

May I ask where you got your information that the offical religion in the United States is LDS mormons that was passed and approved by congress from?

I am not kidding, the Mormons went before the U.S congress and passed their religion off as an official religion of the United States of America. I learned this back in the early 1980’s, don’t recall the source at this time. Maybe a Mormon or some one can help you with a site to this information. It’s been too long ago for me to recall the direct source. I will PM you when I find a source or the source this information came from. It should be public knowledge?

 

[AmateurPianist]

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Ephesians 4:4 one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

I have not given any interpretation to these scriptures; where did you get that idea? Or do these scriptures speak the truth against your theology of what a church is from face value? Because I have not given you any such interpretation, please feel free to interpret them.

Good point.

Since you are not providing an interpretation, all I can say is Amen, and I agree with these Scriptures.

 

[AmateurPianist]

I certainly don’t dispute the size and age of the CC, but I am tripping over what I believe to be an unspoken implication, which, I think, if I am reading this as the poster had intended, is that because the CC is the largest religion and the oldest form of Christianity, it is therefore the True form of Christianity. Well, it is possible that this is true, but I think that these specific facts can lead us to committing one, possibly two, logical fallacies.

You are absolutely correct. (I did not respond to this because of my one person ignore list…story off topic)

BUT – I do think that there is something about the founding of the church and the passing of the baton through the ages. I just don’t know enough about logic to know if there is a way to “cleanly” argue age without getting into a logical mess. AmateurPianist–you seem to be pretty good at logic–perhaps you could chime in? (I am not even sure if apostolic succession “counts” as “age” or whether they are two different things.)

This is not to say that there are no good arguments to be made that support the Catholic Church’s contention that it is the True Church. But it is easy to fall into making claims that go against logic.

---

*I said “in part” above, because I would also imagine that some would say that the Orthodox Church was the original church, and that the CC is the offshoot of the main vine. I don’t personally claim to know enough of the history to be able to speak intelligently on it, so I will not even attempt to make any arguments for that one!)

I had a friend in college who became a Catholic, His words to me were something like “All things being equal I would rather be in a church that comes from the apostles”.

Kinda hard to argue against that reasoning. In fact in a sense there is a certain appeal here.

Except that is not the claim of Catholicism. The claim is not rough equivalency to all other organizations except …well we have lineage and you don’t. Instead the claim is that We exclusively are the one true church and you are not. Furthermore there are certain benefits and graces that God provides only to our organization that He will not provide to your organization. That is not an appeal based on all things being equal.

If I understand the basic logic of Catholicism here is

• Of all the organizations out there, only one can logically be the One True Church. You can not have Christ’s one church existing in many organizations (why this is impossible as opposed to outside of God’s design just I don’t get).
• The metric of lineage is used to determine which organization isl the One True Church and we have it. Now why lineage must be the governing metric given the assumption above I don’t get either. But I do observe that the metric of lineage does not yield a unique result. That suggests to me this metric is kind of problematic.

Now this logic is supported by certain quotes from the early church before there were any splits (or more accurately the divisions that did exist were clearly of the nature true church → heretic like JW). It just seems to me you can’t assume how these same sources would react 2000 years into the future with events happening during that time they have absolutely no knowledge of.

 

[sablouwho]

If I understand the basic logic of Catholicism here is

• Of all the organizations out there, only one can logically be the One True Church. You can not have Christ’s one church existing in many organizations (why this is impossible as opposed to outside of God’s design just I don’t get).

WRT your last sentence above, I am seeking clarification as I’m not sure I understand your meaning – are you saying that you believe, with respect to the statement “Christ’s one church exist[ing] in many organizations”:

– is impossible
– is possible yet outside God’s design
– is possible yet NOT outside God’s design
– none of the above?

Thanks.

 

[AmateurPianist]

WRT your last sentence above, I am seeking clarification as I’m not sure I understand your meaning – are you saying that you believe, with respect to the statement “Christ’s one church exist[ing] in many organizations”:

– is impossible
– is possible yet outside God’s design
– is possible yet NOT outside God’s design
– none of the above?

Thanks.

– is possible yet outside God’s design. Particularly when they are in competition with each other and proclaiming mutually exclusive doctrines and dogmas.

I don’t think I can prove this, but based on the evidence from reading Scripture, history, and personal observation I think it is the best fit.

 

[jmcrae]

I certainly don’t dispute the size and age of the CC, but I am tripping over what I believe to be an unspoken implication, which, I think, if I am reading this as the poster had intended, is that because the CC is the largest religion and the oldest form of Christianity, it is therefore the True form of Christianity.

Let us further assume that Christ founded “a form of Christianity.” (Matthew 16:18) Surely, therefore, the oldest form would (by definition) be that which He founded, and (presumably) therefore, the one that He would like all of us to belong to.

Since He commanded His Apostles to spread His religion throughout the whole world (Matthew 28:19), it also makes sense that the only one around that happens to be available in every nation on the whole earth (which also happens to be the oldest one) would be that very same one that He established - and, by deduction, the authentic form of Christianity that all of us should be striving to become a part of.

I hope that helps you.

 

[AmateurPianist]

Let us further assume that Christ founded “a form of Christianity.” (Matthew 16:18) Surely, therefore, the oldest form would (by definition) be that which He founded, and (presumably) therefore, the one that He would like all of us to belong to.

This assumes that absolutely nothing changes with this oldest organization over time. If that is the case, then it could be believable that God sides with the oldest organization each time there is a division and that He continues to provide the oldest organization benefits and graces that He just will not provide to the other organizations.