Who says one organization today is "The True Church"

[Gabriel_of_12]

When "others leave it"is is by definition a split.

“No MAN can split or sever what God has joined together” What man can seperate the body of Jesus Christ? To leave Truth when the Rich man walked away from Jesus, the Rich man did not split from Jesus, because he removed himself from the True presence of Jesus Christ. The “Worlds definition of split” cannot split the body of Jesus Christ which is the Catholic Church.

 

[AmateurPianist]

Jesus Christ says so! and so does the Word of God says so!

You claim Jesus Christ says so and you claim the Word of God says so. The issue is whether God has actually revealed this to man through Jesus Christ and the Word of God or whether you are presuming to speak for God.

Matthew 16:17
Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18
**And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my **church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth

1Timothy 3:14 I am writing you about these matters, although I hope to visit you soon.
15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave** in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. Ephesians 3: 10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the principalities and authorities 6 in the heavens. 11 This was according to the eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, . 20 Now to him who is able to accomplish far more than all we ask or imagine, by the power at work within us, 21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen. **

Colossians 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking 14 in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church,

Ephesians 4:1 I, then, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to live in a manner worthy of the call you have received, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another through love, 3 striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace: 4 one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

Ephesians 4:10 The one who descended is also the one who ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things. 11 And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers, 12** to equip the holy ones for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, **

Ephesians 4:15 Rather, living the truth in love, we should grow in every way into him who is the head, Christ, 7 16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, with the proper functioning of each part, brings about the body’s growth and builds itself up in love.

Ephesians 5: 29 For no one hates his own flesh but rather nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ does the church,
30 because we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 **This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church. **

1CORINTHIANS 4:17 For this reason I am sending you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord; he will remind you of my ways in Christ (Jesus),** just as I teach them everywhere in every church. **

Now you do the math, which Church suffered the persecutions of death and torture for Jesus Christ name sake? and maintain first century Martyrs and Saints to today? Which Church has outsurvived or out lived Kingdoms and nations for the past 2000 years? Which Church today can trace their succession directly to Peter and the original Apostles of Jesus Christ? IF you answered the Catholic Church you agree with history, and recorded historical facts.

Jesus promised us a Kingdom and what we got was Jesus himself in his body which is the Catholic Church, which Jesus promised himself to remain with always, to believe otherwise is to hold Jesus promises and Word in contempt and risk naming Jesus Christ a “liar” at ones own risk.

No matter how fancy the arguments today. Until man can prove God’s Word worthless and untruthful, then the Church Jesus built in Matthew 16 according to God’s Word remains today unchanged 2000 years in the Catholic Church.

Peace be with you

Your logic again is the same oversimplification I referred to earlier.

• Jesus founded one church and the Word of God teaches there is one church
• The united apostolic church called itself Catholic
• Therefore we are exclusively the church of Jesus Christ

So again I am left believing that the governing metric in all of the splits that occurred later on is the name on the door.

 

[PJM]

=benidict;6123808]hi my friend. i would like to point out malachi 1:11. only one Church does fit this prophecy, the Catholic Church. also there was a central governing authority in the earliest days of the Church. it was the jerusalem Church. this is where paul went to have the issue of circumcision dealt with. it was peter who was the final authority on matters of faith and dogma at that time. there is historical evidence that peter was in rome, and that centralized governing authority still resides there. nothing has really changed in 2000 years. by the way, happy new year. and may God bless you and yours.

Really? How so

Mal.1:11 “For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations, says the LORD of hosts”

Is that not precisely the mandate given by Jesus to His new Chruch?

Mt. 28:19-20 "Matt.28 Verses 19 to 20 “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

One Church
**
John 10:16 And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.
**
Mt. 16: 15 He [Jesus] said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I [singular] tell you, you are Peter, [singular] and on this rock [singular] I will build my [singular] church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. [singular] 19 I [God singular] will give you [singular] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you [singular] bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Eph. 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [singular] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Then friend, what is the explanation for these teachings?

Love nd prayers,
Pat

 

[AmateurPianist]

“No MAN can split or sever what God has joined together”

Funny thing that I hear those words in relationship to marriage quite often. In the case of marriage, man can split what God has created.

What man can seperate the body of Jesus Christ?

Hmm. The apostolic church was one organization. Now there are many organizations. Somebody did this. It was either man or God. I propose it was man, but maybe it was God.

To leave Truth when the Rich man walked away from Jesus, the Rich man did not split from Jesus, because he removed himself from the True presence of Jesus Christ. The “Worlds definition of split” cannot split the body of Jesus Christ which is the Catholic Church.

Now you are implying that God always sided with the Catholic church because because in all other cases the other organizations “left truth”.

Well the Orthodox, Trail of Blood Baptist, and various restorationalist sects might choose to disagree.

And you claiming that in all other cases the other organizations “left truth” again is you claiming to speak for God? That is nice, but a whole lot of folks clain to speak for God and have reached conclusions other than what you have come up with.

What I am interested in really is what has God actually revealed to man.

So again I want to know the verses in the Bible that show that God has revealed to mankind that:

• In the case that you observe multiple organizations each posing as “the church” there will always be only one organization that actually is “the church” (from God’s perspective). Therefore you really must identify with this organization.
• You must use this metric to identify the organization that is the real church from all other imposter organizations.

So far I have yet to uncover one verse that promises that God will always recognize one and only one organization as the church in the case the church divides (much less what metric you must use to identify this church).

The only verses that have been put forth thus far are verses which claim that Christ founded one church (I agree).

However the above two propositions are not the same thing.

 

[Teneas]

Funny thing that I hear those words in relationship to marriage quite often. In the case of marriage, man can split what God has created.

Hmm. The apostolic church was one organization. Now there are many organizations. Somebody did this. It was either man or God. I propose it was man, but maybe it was God.

Now you are implying that God always sided with the Catholic church because because in all other cases the other organizations “left truth”.

Well the Orthodox, Trail of Blood Baptist, and various restorationalist sects might choose to disagree.

And you claiming that in all other cases the other organizations “left truth” again is you claiming to speak for God? That is nice, but a whole lot of folks clain to speak for God and have reached conclusions other than what you have come up with.

What I am interested in really is what has God actually revealed to man.

So again I want to know the verses in the Bible that show that God has revealed to mankind that:

• In the case that you observe multiple organizations each posing as “the church” there will always be only one organization that actually is “the church” (from God’s perspective). Therefore you really must identify with this organization.
• You must use this metric to identify the organization that is the real church from all other imposter organizations.

So far I have yet to uncover one verse that promises that God will always recognize one and only one organization as the church in the case the church divides (much less what metric you must use to identify this church).

The only verses that have been put forth thus far are verses which claim that Christ founded one church (I agree).

However the above two propositions are not the same thing.

Just pointing out something: Doesn’t everyone disagree? What kind of Church would we be in the first place if we didn’t think we were right? Of course we believe that God didn’t want the split, and that he does “side” with the Catholic Church. What denomination wouldn’t believe that about themselves? Baptists, Methodist, and all other denominations believe they are in the right. That all others are wrong, but still a part of one invisible body that exists. That being said, they still judge, condemn, and put down every single other sect of Christianity that there is. I live in the south here in the US, and I see two Baptists churchs on the corner across from each other, with both having sign battles, as I call it.

“We have the truth”…across the street “We have the truth”

Uh huh…suuuuurrrre you do.

 

[izoid]

Funny thing that I hear those words in relationship to marriage quite often. In the case of marriage, man can split what God has created.

Hmm. The apostolic church was one organization. Now there are many organizations. Somebody did this. It was either man or God. I propose it was man, but maybe it was God.

Now you are implying that God always sided with the Catholic church because because in all other cases the other organizations “left truth”.

Well the Orthodox, Trail of Blood Baptist, and various restorationalist sects might choose to disagree.

And you claiming that in all other cases the other organizations “left truth” again is you claiming to speak for God? That is nice, but a whole lot of folks clain to speak for God and have reached conclusions other than what you have come up with.

What I am interested in really is what has God actually revealed to man.

So again I want to know the verses in the Bible that show that God has revealed to mankind that:

• In the case that you observe multiple organizations each posing as “the church” there will always be only one organization that actually is “the church” (from God’s perspective). Therefore you really must identify with this organization.
• You must use this metric to identify the organization that is the real church from all other imposter organizations.

So far I have yet to uncover one verse that promises that God will always recognize one and only one organization as the church in the case the church divides (much less what metric you must use to identify this church).

The only verses that have been put forth thus far are verses which claim that Christ founded one church (I agree).

However the above two propositions are not the same thing.

God calls the Church the pillar and foundation of truth. The Greek in this text indicates an integral foundation to truth. We can therefore feel confident that God gave His Church all truth. If the Church is the very foundation of truth, it has not untruth in it. If any untruth enters the church then all teachings become questionable.

We can see from history that the Catholic Church was the only Church to exist for many hundreds of years immediately after Christs time on earth. Since Christ established a Church and the Catholic Church was the only Church to esxist we can readily believe that it is the Church that is the pillar and foundation of truth.

Any group that desires to leave this Church (Catholic Church) and form their own community, teaching differently than the Catholic Church cannot be teaching truth. If they are not teaching truth, they are not the Church that Christ established.

 

[AmateurPianist]

God calls the Church the pillar and foundation of truth. The Greek in this text indicates an integral foundation to truth. We can therefore feel confident that God gave His Church all truth. If the Church is the very foundation of truth, it has not untruth in it. If any untruth enters the church then all teachings become questionable.

We can see from history that the Catholic Church was the only Church to exist for many hundreds of years immediately after Christs time on earth. Since Christ established a Church and the Catholic Church was the only Church to esxist we can readily believe that it is the Church that is the pillar and foundation of truth.

Any group that desires to leave this Church (Catholic Church) and form their own community, teaching differently than the Catholic Church cannot be teaching truth. If they are not teaching truth, they are not the Church that Christ established.

That assumes that church as the pillar and foundation of the truth is the same as

• God gave the church all truth
• It is impossible that any untruth enter the church at any time
• Therefore if multiple organizations exist, one and only one organization must be teaching the entire truth. That organization alone would be the church.

I don’t see why I should assume that these two phrases are identical. So to use this Scripture as proof of the contention that of all the organizations we see today only one organization must be “the one true church” seems sketchy. I have to make the assumption that the two sets of phrases mean exactly the same thing and I don’t know why I should, or even why it is even natural to do so.

And the logic you are using is (assuming that there must be one true church) that the name on the door is the governing metric to determine the one true church (assuming that one organization and only one organization today must be the one true church).

 

[AmateurPianist]

Just pointing out something: Doesn’t everyone disagree? What kind of Church would we be in the first place if we didn’t think we were right? Of course we believe that God didn’t want the split, and that he does “side” with the Catholic Church. What denomination wouldn’t believe that about themselves? Baptists, Methodist, and all other denominations believe they are in the right. That all others are wrong, but still a part of one invisible body that exists. That being said, they still judge, condemn, and put down every single other sect of Christianity that there is. I live in the south here in the US, and I see two Baptists churchs on the corner across from each other, with both having sign battles, as I call it.

“We have the truth”…across the street “We have the truth”

Uh huh…suuuuurrrre you do.

Of course everybody believes they are right. Believing you are right is not the same as believing you are incapable of being wrong.

That being said, you raise a valid point on with organization competing with each other, condemning each other and proclaiming contradictory doctrine being how God designed the church. The church as all believers…when stated by itself without any qualifications…sort of implies that God is cool with this. That is why I believe “The church as all believers”, while true, is also an oversimplification.

 

[izoid]

That assumes that church as the pillar and foundation of the truth is the same as

• God gave the church all truth
• It is impossible that any untruth enter the church at any time
• Therefore if multiple organizations exist, one and only one organization must be teaching the entire truth. That organization alone would be the church.

I don’t see why I should assume that these two phrases are identical. So to use this Scripture as proof of the contention that of all the organizations we see today only one organization must be “the one true church” seems sketchy. I have to make the assumption that the two sets of phrases mean exactly the same thing and I don’t know why I should, or even why it is even natural to do so.

And the logic you are using is (assuming that there must be one true church) that the name on the door is the governing metric to determine the one true church (assuming that one organization and only one organization today must be the one true church).

It is not the name on the door that makes the Church the true Church. It is the teaching of that Church that makes it true. The protestant reformation was not simply about the “name on the door”, it was about doctrine and it continues to be. Our differences are not in name only.

Christ’s prayer was that the Church would be one, just as He and the Father were one. This implies a deep unity that is at the very core of existense. Can this unity, of teaching and doctrine, of worship and practice, be seen anywhere throughout proteastantism?

 

[Teneas]

Of course everybody believes they are right. Believing you are right is not the same as believing you are incapable of being wrong.

That being said, you raise a valid point on with organization competing with each other, condemning each other and proclaiming contradictory doctrine being how God designed the church. The church as all believers…when stated by itself without any qualifications…sort of implies that God is cool with this. That is why I believe “The church as all believers”, while true, is also an oversimplification.

I don’t believe that the Church Catholic has ever thought they were 100% correct with everything. Just everything they state as Dogma, and doctrine. There are many many things they admit that we are free to believe whatever we wish. Such as age of the world. Evolution vs. Creationism. There are more like this.

As a Church, we just believe 100% on the things that have been “set in stone” by scripture, or by the Holy Spirit guiding the Church itself. There have been things, such as the debates in early times as to whether or not Christ was divine in nature, human in nature, or both, that there were many wrong teachings at the time. Those were corrected through the Holy Spirit however.

All faiths should believe they are 100% correct, or there is really nothing to believe in at all. Saying you are not correct, is opening windows for huge problems within a faith.

As I always say, I could be wrong.

 

[onenow1]

In the United States there are 2 major political parties (and several minor one). Each major political party of course considers themselves to be the one true political party.

Now (the Moral Majority notwithstanding) I don’t think that God has a preferred United States political party that he chooses to bless above the others. At least that is what the evidence that I have observed suggests.

I was making an analogy to the hundreds if not thousands of christian communities today, with this in mind who has the authority. Tom, dick or Harriet.

This is what Jesus prayed for AP solidarity in thought, when it comes to worshiping in community.

God Bless
onenow1

 

[PJM]

=AmateurPianist;6124519]Sorry to truncate your post, but that one sentence to me seems to be a good summary of what you are trying to say.

While I am skeptical that one organization that we see today is “The One True” church from God’s perspective, there is another perspective here. That is the perspective of the individual believer.

I think it is possible for both of these conditions to be true.
(1) God does not look upon any one organization today as “The Church” exclusive of all other organizations.

(2) God does have a plan for each individual believer that includes connecting the believer to one organization in the area in which they reside.

Friend, of course God wants only One Church. That friend is fact.

John 10:16 And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.

**Mt. 16: 15 ** He [Jesus] said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I [singular] tell you, you are Peter, [singular] and on this rock [singular] I will build my [singular] church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. [singular] 19 I [God singular] will give you [singular] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you [singular] bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Eph. 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [singular] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

“One Church” is mentioned 37 times in the NT

Why?

Because there can only be ONE TRUTH. And as God Himself planed on all matters of Faith and Morals [including proper understanding of the Bible] it resides in His CC.

This is easily verifible by the FACT the for nearly a 1000 years today’s CC was the only Christian Faith, the Only Church, thus it has to be true.

love and prayers,

Pat

 

[AmateurPianist]

It is not the name on the door that makes the Church the true Church. It is the teaching of that Church that makes it true. The protestant reformation was not simply about the “name on the door”, it was about doctrine and it continues to be. Our differences are not in name only.

Christ’s prayer was that the Church would be one, just as He and the Father were one. This implies a deep unity that is at the very core of existense. Can this unity, of teaching and doctrine, of worship and practice, be seen anywhere throughout proteastantism?

I agree that the differences between us are more than “name on the door”.

But the logic presented to me is

1. Jesus said there is one church
2. The Catholic church is the only church around from the beginning of the church age
3. Therefore the Catholic church is the one true church

You are in effect (1) assuming that one and only one organization today must be the one true church (2) the governing metric is the name on the door.

Now a separate issue is whether what you observe today in what you call “Protestantism” (whatever that is) is compatible with how God designed the church. That is an interesting conversation in and of itself.

But I do observe that even if what you observe in “Protestantism” is not correct, it does not necessarily follow that you are correct either.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I agree that the differences between us are more than “name on the door”.

But the logic presented to me is

1. Jesus said there is one church
2. The Catholic church is the only church around from the beginning of the church age
3. Therefore the Catholic church is the one true church

You are in effect (1) assuming that one and only one organization today must be the one true church (2) the governing metric is the name on the door.

Now a separate issue is whether what you observe today in what you call “Protestantism” (whatever that is) is compatible with how God designed the church. That is an interesting conversation in and of itself.

But I do observe that even if what you observe in “Protestantism” is not correct, it does not necessarily follow that you are correct either.

It is possible that the Catholic Church is not the Church Jesus founded, but then it must be the Orthodox Church.

Otherwise, Jesus lied.

 

[AmateurPianist]

All faiths should believe they are 100% correct, or there is really nothing to believe in at all. Saying you are not correct, is opening windows for huge problems within a faith.

Right…I agree with the premise.

It does not logically follow though that because I believe my organization is 100% correct (which I don’t btw) that I believe my organization is the one true church…God provides benefits and graces to my organization that He does not to any other organization…and it would be to the Spiritual benefit of each Christian to be a member of my organization.

 

[AmateurPianist]

It is possible that the Catholic Church is not the Church Jesus founded, but then it must be the Orthodox Church.

Otherwise, Jesus lied.

How did Jesus lie?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

How did Jesus lie?

He said that the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church.

If a Church teaches lies, or if a Church is destroyed, then the gates of hell have prevailed.

 

[AmateurPianist]

Friend, of course God wants only One Church. That friend is fact.

John 10:16 And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.

**Mt. 16: 15 ** He [Jesus] said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I [singular] tell you, you are Peter, [singular] and on this rock [singular] I will build my [singular] church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. [singular] 19 I [God singular] will give you [singular] the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you [singular] bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Eph. 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, [singular] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

“One Church” is mentioned 37 times in the NT

Why?

Because there can only be ONE TRUTH. And as God Himself planed on all matters of Faith and Morals [including proper understanding of the Bible] it resides in His CC.

This is easily verifible by the FACT the for nearly a 1000 years today’s CC was the only Christian Faith, the Only Church, thus it has to be true.

love and prayers,

Pat

Again (repeating myself) I agree that the Bible says one church.

However I have not found a Scripture that claims this one church always must exist in one organization from the apostolic age to the time of Christ’s returning. If I found such a Scripture, I could believe that one organization that I see today is one church. Then all I would need is a Scripture that tells me the metric to use in determining uniquely what this organization is. If I had these two Scriptures I would then conclude that God has specifically revealed to mankind what organization He wants all Christians to be a part of at this time.

Outside of these Scriptures, I must conclude that you are just providing me your unique interpretation of these Scriptures. The problem is I can easily find folks who will provide other unique interpretations of the same set of Scriptures that you provide.

So then it comes down to whom should I believe. And I don’t know of any intrinsic reason why I should believe any one person above anybody else.

 

[AmateurPianist]

He said that the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church.

If a Church teaches lies, or if a Church is destroyed, then the gates of hell have prevailed.

That is according to your unique interpretation of this Scripture. I can easily find other folks that provide a different interpretation. So then it comes down to whom I choose to believe.

I do note that if you are asking me to read this for myself and judge for myself, that you would be asking me to execute private judgement which you have told me is wrong.

I do observe that in English the phrases “the gates of hell will not prevail against the church” is not the same as the phrase "the church teaching something that is not true. So the interpretation of these Scriptures is not so simple that even a cave man can do it.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

That is according to your unique interpretation of this Scripture. I can easily find other folks that provide a different interpretation. So then it comes down to whom I choose to believe.

I do note that if you are asking me to read this for myself and judge for myself, that you would be asking me to execute private judgement which you have told me is wrong.

I do observe that in English the phrases “the gates of hell will not prevail against the church” is not the same as the phrase "the church teaching something that is not true. So the interpretation of these Scriptures is not so simple that even a cave man can do it.

You asked me what I thought, and I told you.

Do you believe that the Church started by Jesus would teach lies or be destroyed?