Who says we 'choose' Hell?

[Qoeleth]

It seems like a lot of people say that the only way a soul can end up in Hell is if it knowlingly chooses to go there, to be out of the presence of God.

I would like to question this. In the scene of the Last Judgment in Matt 25, the condemned people (who are sent to eternal punishment in the fires prepared for the Devil), in fact, did not realise they were failing to feed, visit and minister to Christ.

Then in Matt 7, those people who say “Lord, Lord” obviously want to join Jesus in Heaven, and, it seems, believe that they ‘knew him’. But they are also condemned.

Then in Luke, the story of Dives and Lazarus. The rich man wants to get out of Hell, to join God in Heaven- but he cannot, even though he repents what he has done.

My point is, this talk of choosing Hell is not really supported by Scripture. No one would actually choose eternal suffering, since suffering, by definition, is what you do not want.

And also- the idea that Hell is simply being out of the presence of God. True, that is part of it. But what about the eternal flames which are never quenched, and the worm which never dies?

It seems to me like the only sense in which saying people ‘choose’ Hell is true is in the sense we choose our actions here on earth, but then are bound to be rewarded or punished accordingly. No one (or perhaps one in a thousand) would actually choose punishment. But we are told the path to Hell is wide, easy and chosen by the many.

Maybe we Catholics are not taking Hell seriously enough anymore.

 

[ApologiaSophia]

It seems like a lot of people say that the only way a soul can end up in Hell is if it knowlingly chooses to go there, to be out of the presence of God.

I would like to question this. In the scene of the Last Judgment in Matt 25, the condemned people (who are sent to eternal punishment in the fires prepared for the Devil), in fact, did not realise they were failing to feed, visit and minister to Christ.

Then in Matt 7, those people who say “Lord, Lord” obviously want to join Jesus in Heaven, and, it seems, believe that they ‘knew him’. But they are also condemned.

Then in Luke, the story of Dives and Lazarus. The rich man wants to get out of Hell, to join God in Heaven- but he cannot, even though he repents what he has done.

My point is, this talk of choosing Hell is not really supported by Scripture. No one would actually choose eternal suffering, since suffering, by definition, is what you do not want.

And also- the idea that Hell is simply being out of the presence of God. True, that is part of it. But what about the eternal flames which are never quenched, and the worm which never dies?

It seems to me like the only sense in which saying people ‘choose’ Hell is true is in the sense we choose our actions here on earth, but then are bound to be rewarded or punished accordingly. No one (or perhaps one in a thousand) would actually choose punishment. But we are told the path to Hell is wide, easy and chosen by the many.

Maybe we Catholics are not taking Hell seriously enough anymore.

I have wondered this myself. The best defense I can come up with is this. The response is not an outward one, but an inward one. Is the Holy Spirit ministering to their spirit? How are they responding? Now there is no way to scientifically or philosophically prove this to be true, but it is a possibility.

Here’s a relevant article:
radiomissions.org/sermons/salvinwk.shtml

There are an increasing number of Muslims or are converting because Christ has been revealed to them through there dreams. Perhaps it is not the physical rejection, but a spiritual, inward rejection that cannot be seen.

Apart from this somewhat speculative suggestion, I have no answer.

 

[Trishie]

Jesus is the authority on that.
**We choose heaven or hell by how we choose to act.

Those who choose to live without practical kindness to others choose hell for themselves. Jesus say so in Matthew 25 verses 31-46**

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,

32 and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,

36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’

37 Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?

38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?

39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’

40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

41 Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,

43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’

44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’

45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’

46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

God bless you

 

[Tietjen]

It seems to me like the only sense in which saying people ‘choose’ Hell is true is in the sense we choose our actions here on earth, but then are bound to be rewarded or punished accordingly. No one (or perhaps one in a thousand) would actually choose punishment. But we are told the path to Hell is wide, easy and chosen by the many.

Yes, I believe that it is by the actions of the individual that hell is chosen. If you know that Action ‘A’ = punishment and you choose to do Action ‘A’, you are essentially choosing punishment.

Maybe we Catholics are not taking Hell seriously enough anymore.

I don’t understand how you have come to that conclusion. Well, at least not if you are talking about Catholics that take their faith seriously.

 

[Pilgrim2012]

It seems like a lot of people say that the only way a soul can end up in Hell is if it knowlingly chooses to go there, to be out of the presence of God.

Maybe we Catholics are not taking Hell seriously enough anymore.

Please, do not try to guess God’s judgement.
It is He who judges and he is not going to look over the shoulder to see the Scriptures.
He knows perfectly.

 

[sophion]

It seems like a lot of people say that the only way a soul can end up in Hell is if it knowlingly chooses to go there, to be out of the presence of God.

I would like to question this. In the scene of the Last Judgment in Matt 25, the condemned people (who are sent to eternal punishment in the fires prepared for the Devil), in fact, did not realise they were failing to feed, visit and minister to Christ.

Then in Matt 7, those people who say “Lord, Lord” obviously want to join Jesus in Heaven, and, it seems, believe that they ‘knew him’. But they are also condemned.

Then in Luke, the story of Dives and Lazarus. The rich man wants to get out of Hell, to join God in Heaven- but he cannot, even though he repents what he has done.

My point is, this talk of choosing Hell is not really supported by Scripture. No one would actually choose eternal suffering, since suffering, by definition, is what you do not want.

And also- the idea that Hell is simply being out of the presence of God. True, that is part of it. But what about the eternal flames which are never quenched, and the worm which never dies?

It seems to me like the only sense in which saying people ‘choose’ Hell is true is in the sense we choose our actions here on earth, but then are bound to be rewarded or punished accordingly. No one (or perhaps one in a thousand) would actually choose punishment. But we are told the path to Hell is wide, easy and chosen by the many.

Maybe we Catholics are not taking Hell seriously enough anymore.

BINGO! there goes the ‘choosing hell’ argument. DOWN THE DRAIN!

 

[ApologiaSophia]

BINGO! there goes the ‘choosing hell’ argument. DOWN THE DRAIN!

Not exactly. My argument stands if you believe in revelation, it poses no problem to Calvinism, nor does it refute a compatabilism. At best it shows we have no evidence for believing in hell though external evidence or reason alone, but if God has revealed that this is the case on a deeper level it can still be true. This now becomes a presuppositional argument.

 

[JRKH]

It seems like a lot of people say that the only way a soul can end up in Hell is if it knowlingly chooses to go there, to be out of the presence of God.

I would like to question this. In the scene of the Last Judgment in Matt 25, the condemned people (who are sent to eternal punishment in the fires prepared for the Devil), in fact, did not realise they were failing to feed, visit and minister to Christ.

Then in Matt 7, those people who say “Lord, Lord” obviously want to join Jesus in Heaven, and, it seems, believe that they ‘knew him’. But they are also condemned.

Then in Luke, the story of Dives and Lazarus. The rich man wants to get out of Hell, to join God in Heaven- but he cannot, even though he repents what he has done.

My point is, this talk of choosing Hell is not really supported by Scripture. No one would actually choose eternal suffering, since suffering, by definition, is what you do not want.

And also- the idea that Hell is simply being out of the presence of God. True, that is part of it. But what about the eternal flames which are never quenched, and the worm which never dies?
**
It seems to me like the only sense in which saying people ‘choose’ Hell is true is in the sense we choose our actions here on earth, but then are bound to be rewarded or punished accordingly. No one (or perhaps one in a thousand) would actually choose punishment. But we are told the path to Hell is wide, easy and chosen by the many.**

Maybe we Catholics are not taking Hell seriously enough anymore.

The Bolded section is precisely what we mean when talking about people choosing hell over heaven. One of the best descriptions that I have ever read is from St Catherine of Sienna’ book “Dialogues”. In THIS section, about 6 paragraphs down, God describes Judgement to her in this way.
"Wherefore, know, that at the moment of death, they, having passed their life under the lordship of the Devil (not that they were forced to do so, for as I told you they cannot be forced, but they voluntarily put themselves into his hands), and, arriving at the extremity of their death under this perverse lordship, they await no other judgment than that of their own conscience, and desperately, despairingly, come to eternal damnation. Wherefore Hell, through their hate, surges up to them in the extremity of death, and before they get there, they take hold of it, by means of their lord the Devil.

"As the righteous, who have lived in charity and died in love, if they have lived perfectly in virtue, illuminated with the light of faith, with perfect hope in the Blood of the Lamb, when the extremity of death comes, see the good which I have prepared for them, and embrace it with the arms of love, holding fast with pressure of love to Me, the Supreme and Eternal Good. And so they taste eternal life before they have left the mortal body, that is, before the soul be separated from the body.

"Others who have passed their lives, and have arrived at the last extremity of death with an ordinary charity (not in that great perfection), embrace My mercy with the same light of faith and hope that had those perfect ones, but, in them, it is imperfect, for, because they were imperfect, they constrained My mercy, counting My mercy greater than their sins.

“The wicked sinners do the contrary, for, seeing, with desperation, their destination, they embrace it with hatred, as I told you. So that neither the one nor the other waits for judgment, but, in departing this life, they receive every one their place, as I have told you, and they taste it and possess it before they depart from the body, at the extremity of death – the damned with hatred and with despair, and the perfect ones with love and the light of faith and with the hope of the Blood. And the imperfect arrive at the place of Purgatory, with mercy and the same faith.”

Peace
James

 

[Trurl]

Yes, I believe that it is by the actions of the individual that hell is chosen. If you know that Action ‘A’ = punishment and you choose to do Action ‘A’, you are essentially choosing punishment.

And this is the quintessential misrepresentation of the problem.

Even if a criminal actually “knows” that the “price” of a crime is a sentence of so many years in prison… even then it is not true that committing that crime is “consenting” to the punishment. The criminal counts on being undetected, can hope for a lucky jury verdict, can hope for an error on the part of the prosecution - in other words, the perpetrator does NOT “choose” the punishment, when decides to commit the crime.

Now, this pertains to the imperfect human justice system - and with God, no such oversight is possible. The problem is different in that case. We simply do NOT KNOW that the punishment for action “A” is punishment “B”. Indeed, some people assert that it is, but those people have absolutely no credibility! They “might” say that one unrepented masturbation will bring down the full wrath of the vengeful God on the perpetrator, but only a seriously delusional person would actually believe that (considering the alleged infinite mercy of this “God”). And delusional people should not be punished - since that would be unjust.

 

[Qoeleth]

The Bolded section is precisely what we mean when talking about people choosing hell over heaven. One of the best descriptions that I have ever read is from St Catherine of Sienna’ book “Dialogues”. In THIS section, about 6 paragraphs down, God describes Judgement to her in this way.
"Wherefore, know, that at the moment of death, they, having passed their life under the lordship of the Devil (not that they were forced to do so, for as I told you they cannot be forced, but they voluntarily put themselves into his hands), and, arriving at the extremity of their death under this perverse lordship, they await no other judgment than that of their own conscience, and desperately, despairingly, come to eternal damnation. Wherefore Hell, through their hate, surges up to them in the extremity of death, and before they get there, they take hold of it, by means of their lord the Devil.

"As the righteous, who have lived in charity and died in love, if they have lived perfectly in virtue, illuminated with the light of faith, with perfect hope in the Blood of the Lamb, when the extremity of death comes, see the good which I have prepared for them, and embrace it with the arms of love, holding fast with pressure of love to Me, the Supreme and Eternal Good. And so they taste eternal life before they have left the mortal body, that is, before the soul be separated from the body.

"Others who have passed their lives, and have arrived at the last extremity of death with an ordinary charity (not in that great perfection), embrace My mercy with the same light of faith and hope that had those perfect ones, but, in them, it is imperfect, for, because they were imperfect, they constrained My mercy, counting My mercy greater than their sins.

“The wicked sinners do the contrary, for, seeing, with desperation, their destination, they embrace it with hatred, as I told you. So that neither the one nor the other waits for judgment, but, in departing this life, they receive every one their place, as I have told you, and they taste it and possess it before they depart from the body, at the extremity of death – the damned with hatred and with despair, and the perfect ones with love and the light of faith and with the hope of the Blood. And the imperfect arrive at the place of Purgatory, with mercy and the same faith.”

Peace
James

But what of the story of the rich man and Lazarus- the rich man has failed in his actions on earth, but it doesn’t seem like he ‘embraces’ Hell willingly out of despair or hate- in fact, it would seem reasonable that during his life, he actually thought he was going to Heaven…

 

[Qoeleth]

And this is the quintessential misrepresentation of the problem.

Even if a criminal actually “knows” that the “price” of a crime is a sentence of so many years in prison… even then it is not true that committing that crime is “consenting” to the punishment. The criminal counts on being undetected, can hope for a lucky jury verdict, can hope for an error on the part of the prosecution - in other words, the perpetrator does NOT “choose” the punishment, when decides to commit the crime.

Now, this pertains to the imperfect human justice system - and with God, no such oversight is possible. The problem is different in that case. We simply do NOT KNOW that the punishment for action “A” is punishment “B”. Indeed, some people assert that it is, but those people have absolutely no credibility! They “might” say that one unrepented masturbation will bring down the full wrath of the vengeful God on the perpetrator, but only a seriously delusional person would actually believe that (considering the alleged infinite mercy of this “God”). And delusional people should not be punished - since that would be unjust.

That is a valid point. It is not as simple as saying, “If you choose the crime, you choose the punishment”, since not everyone agrees about the relationship between an action and its consequences. But, God has given “us” ample warning in the Scriptures, and to “others”, through conscience.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

It seems like a lot of people say that the only way a soul can end up in Hell is if it knowlingly chooses to go there, to be out of the presence of God.

I would like to question this. In the scene of the Last Judgment in Matt 25, the condemned people (who are sent to eternal punishment in the fires prepared for the Devil), in fact, did not realise they were failing to feed, visit and minister to Christ.

Then in Matt 7, those people who say “Lord, Lord” obviously want to join Jesus in Heaven, and, it seems, believe that they ‘knew him’. But they are also condemned.

Then in Luke, the story of Dives and Lazarus. The rich man wants to get out of Hell, to join God in Heaven- but he cannot, even though he repents what he has done.

My point is, this talk of choosing Hell is not really supported by Scripture. No one would actually choose eternal suffering, since suffering, by definition, is what you do not want.

And also- the idea that Hell is simply being out of the presence of God. True, that is part of it. But what about the eternal flames which are never quenched, and the worm which never dies?

It seems to me like the only sense in which saying people ‘choose’ Hell is true is in the sense we choose our actions here on earth, but then are bound to be rewarded or punished accordingly. No one (or perhaps one in a thousand) would actually choose punishment. But we are told the path to Hell is wide, easy and chosen by the many.

Maybe we Catholics are not taking Hell seriously enough anymore.

I’ll agree with you on that, but I have a ‘take’ on the crowd’s questions.

To me, it is very similar to the modern day outlook (ok not just modern, but we REALLY see it today) of trying to look for the loophole.

To me, I see those people saying <"Lord, you weren’t fair. We WOULD have done stuff for YOU ALONE’ but you didn’t make it CLEAR that you were present in OTHER PEOPLE.>

IOW, they are trying to make GOD ‘responsible’ for their lack of actions by trying to pretend that the way to heaven is doing ‘for God alone’ and that if GOD had specifically asked them to do something for HIM they would have done it. In fact, they probably did an awful lot of stuff for “God Alone” (like the Pharisees who would let their parents STARVE in order to focus all the family wealth ‘for God’.)

Whereas the other people questioning? They knew that **it was necessary to do for God by doing FOR OTHERS. . and THEY were trying to make it clear (notice that their testimony comes before the ‘not helpers’) by ‘this rhetorically based asking’ that they knew that one truly does FOR God when doing for OTHERS. **

They were trying to show that the non helpers were off base from the beginning because they should have known (Scripture and the Church and Sacred Tradition are all clear on this) that we love God AND our neighbors.

Now I see this as a foretelling of SOME of the protestant position where the Protestant feels that it’s all ‘God alone’, Scripture alone’, etc. etc. He doesn’t recognize that God is in others. (Heck, in some protestant positions where humans are totally depraved, God COULDN’T be in something so awful!)

Of course many MANY Protestants do many wonderful things for people and will be welcomed into the Kingdom, I certainly believe.

 

[Qoeleth]

Please, do not try to guess God’s judgement.
It is He who judges and he is not going to look over the shoulder to see the Scriptures.
He knows perfectly.

God has given us warning about the nature of His judgment. If you dismiss Scripture, in fact, you then start to “guess” God’s judgment.

I am not guessing- I am following the words of the Gospel, which warn of Hell in most serious terms.

 

[bilop]

! They “might” say that one unrepented masturbation will bring down the full wrath of the vengeful God on the perpetrator, but only a seriously delusional person would actually believe that (considering the alleged infinite mercy of this “God”). And delusional people should not be punished - since that would be unjust.

Really? I believe it. I don’t seem delusional. I hold down a good job, have a wife and friends.

One unrepentented mortal sin will put you in Hell. Masturbation is a mortal sin (if committed with full knowledge and consent), so, therefore, can put you in Hell.

God Bless

 

[sophion]

And this is the quintessential misrepresentation of the problem.

Even if a criminal actually “knows” that the “price” of a crime is a sentence of so many years in prison… even then it is not true that committing that crime is “consenting” to the punishment. The criminal counts on being undetected, can hope for a lucky jury verdict, can hope for an error on the part of the prosecution - in other words, the perpetrator does NOT “choose” the punishment, when decides to commit the crime.

EXACTLY.

some people dont want to see that fact because there is no other way to justify hell.
hell is incompatible with the idea of a loving god. so it must be that its those going there who wants it!!!

senseless.

 

[bilop]

EXACTLY.

some people dont want to see that fact because there is no other way to justify hell.
hell is incompatible with the idea of a loving god. so it must be that its those going there who wants it!!!

senseless.

Why?

God loves all but will not force those who don’t love Him to be with Him.

Not being with God = Hell. The torment of His absence will be extreme, even without the physical pains.

God is loving and merciful, but also just. Those who do evil things must be punished if they do not repent.

God Bless

 

[Marc_Anthony]

It seems like a lot of people say that the only way a soul can end up in Hell is if it knowlingly chooses to go there, to be out of the presence of God.

Half right. I don’t think there idea is to be out of the presence of God. I think that when they were finally given the choice, when either it was God or sin, they chose sin. They didn’t want to be out of God’s presence. They wanted something else more.

I would like to question this. In the scene of the Last Judgment in Matt 25, the condemned people (who are sent to eternal punishment in the fires prepared for the Devil), in fact, did not realise they were failing to feed, visit and minister to Christ.

They were deluding themselves. Of course they had the choice to feed, visit, and minister to Christ. This sounds like a case of culpable ignorance, as opposed to invincible. They chose to be ignorant, so they could try and dodge responsibility. That doesn’t work with God.

Then in Matt 7, those people who say “Lord, Lord” obviously want to join Jesus in Heaven, and, it seems, believe that they ‘knew him’. But they are also condemned.

They obviously DIDN’T know him. They wanted to have their cake and eat it too. They cried “Lord, Lord”, and yet they weren’t willing to try and give up their sin.

Then in Luke, the story of Dives and Lazarus. The rich man wants to get out of Hell, to join God in Heaven- but he cannot, even though he repents what he has done.

That is a parable, not a literal representation of the relationship between those in Heaven and Hell. Those in Hell do not repent.

My point is, this talk of choosing Hell is not really supported by Scripture.

But if we are to go by the biblical arguments you presented here we also must believe that those in Hell can repent when it’s Church teaching that they can’t. And we must believe that those who ask for true forgiveness won’t be granted it. Both of which we know are false. So obviously there’s more going on here.

No one would actually choose eternal suffering, since suffering, by definition, is what you do not want.

They choose sin over God. Being without God, no matter what you replace Him with, will always end up being suffering in the end.

And also- the idea that Hell is simply being out of the presence of God. True, that is part of it. But what about the eternal flames which are never quenched, and the worm which never dies?

The bible uses a lot of metaphorical language, as I’m sure you well know. Being away from God forever is pure torture. It might as well be unquenchable flame. I’ve even heard the theory that the flame is a blessing from God to help distract the people from the pain of realizing they will be without Him forever.

It seems to me like the only sense in which saying people ‘choose’ Hell is true is in the sense we choose our actions here on earth, but then are bound to be rewarded or punished accordingly. No one (or perhaps one in a thousand) would actually choose punishment. But we are told the path to Hell is wide, easy and chosen by the many.

Well, we don’t actually know how many people choose Hell. But no, most people would not choose punishment, per se. They choose what they think is pleasure, when it’s not.

Maybe we Catholics are not taking Hell seriously enough anymore.

I don’t get how believing in the possibility of eternal torture isn’t taking Hell seriously.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

And this is the quintessential misrepresentation of the problem.

Even if a criminal actually “knows” that the “price” of a crime is a sentence of so many years in prison… even then it is not true that committing that crime is “consenting” to the punishment. The criminal counts on being undetected, can hope for a lucky jury verdict, can hope for an error on the part of the prosecution - in other words, the perpetrator does NOT “choose” the punishment, when decides to commit the crime.

The criminal has chosen to do something he knows is against the law, and has deemed the risk worth the reward. He has no right to complain if caught and punished.

Now, this pertains to the imperfect human justice system - and with God, no such oversight is possible. The problem is different in that case. We simply do NOT KNOW that the punishment for action “A” is punishment “B”. Indeed, some people assert that it is, but those people have absolutely no credibility! They “might” say that one unrepented masturbation will bring down the full wrath of the vengeful God on the perpetrator, but only a seriously delusional person would actually believe that (considering the alleged infinite mercy of this “God”). And delusional people should not be punished - since that would be unjust.

Wow, use of the word delusional really begs the question badly.

We can use natural law to figure out morality. But yeah, if you do not commit a grave sin with sufficient knowledge or full consent of will it’s not mortal. This is a pretty established Catholic teaching.

 

[sophion]

Why?

God loves all but will not force those who don’t love Him to be with Him.

Not being with God = Hell. The torment of His absence will be extreme, even without the physical pains.

God is loving and merciful, but also just. Those who do evil things must be punished if they do not repent.

God Bless

we arent being with God now. its fine.

 

[shoe]

C.S. Lewis writes, “There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, ‘Thy will be done,’ and those to whom God says, in the end, ‘Thy will be done.’ All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.”