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sophion
Guest
hey atheists dont experience him now. its still fine.
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wanabesaint
Guest
Heaven is compatable to Loving God, in that the opposite of love is not hate, but the deadly sin of Indifference, Sloth…
Indifference is Hell…as alll the deadly sins are that which leads to Hell…
A man aflicted with alcohol addiction over the course of his life lost it all, family, friends, to the state of nothingless. and yet got free of alcohol in his final years of life, he endured rejection, hate, disdain, poverty, next to nothing as it gets. He endured rejection from people as Christ did as he was crusified.
One day he from his heart admitted that he 'wished, hoped He had pulled his head out of his azz forty years sooner and got free from alchohol. A true repentant if their ever was one…
Alot to be learned from that, how many of US will say in the future we wish we had pulled our heads out of our azz and turned away from our addictions of sin?
rather than our ignorance of judging ourselves as not sinners,
and will we reject others, as this man was rejected by most all, that sends alot of people to Hell?
Your Love of God goes to Heaven, if you reject others, faultfind them, and hold their tresspasses against them, then you nether love them, nor God.
You dont need to dig in the Bible to find truth, when the Catholic church was founded on a Tradition that itself put the Bible together, and is Truth. Rejection of the Truth of the Church is ahuge sin, not knowing the tradition of the Church, pased on by faith,is a sin…
Your Love of God goes to Heaven, rejection, sin, indifference, or the seven deadly sins, are the examples or basis of what seperates you from God.
Hell is the seperation from God…God loved you so much he gave you a free will, ignorance doesnt excuss you. and that reminds us of many might expect to go to hell, in their example of condoning an ignorance of What God calls US to, and setting an example that its OK, failing to admonish the sinner.
A good question to ask is, is it a greater sin to scare people by telling them they will go to Hell for doing such, or is it a greater sin to look on and see others committing sin, and say nothing, in turn, Condoning their sin by saying nothing?
Indifference is Hell…as alll the deadly sins are that which leads to Hell…
A man aflicted with alcohol addiction over the course of his life lost it all, family, friends, to the state of nothingless. and yet got free of alcohol in his final years of life, he endured rejection, hate, disdain, poverty, next to nothing as it gets. He endured rejection from people as Christ did as he was crusified.
One day he from his heart admitted that he 'wished, hoped He had pulled his head out of his azz forty years sooner and got free from alchohol. A true repentant if their ever was one…
Alot to be learned from that, how many of US will say in the future we wish we had pulled our heads out of our azz and turned away from our addictions of sin?
rather than our ignorance of judging ourselves as not sinners,
and will we reject others, as this man was rejected by most all, that sends alot of people to Hell?
Your Love of God goes to Heaven, if you reject others, faultfind them, and hold their tresspasses against them, then you nether love them, nor God.
You dont need to dig in the Bible to find truth, when the Catholic church was founded on a Tradition that itself put the Bible together, and is Truth. Rejection of the Truth of the Church is ahuge sin, not knowing the tradition of the Church, pased on by faith,is a sin…
Your Love of God goes to Heaven, rejection, sin, indifference, or the seven deadly sins, are the examples or basis of what seperates you from God.
Hell is the seperation from God…God loved you so much he gave you a free will, ignorance doesnt excuss you. and that reminds us of many might expect to go to hell, in their example of condoning an ignorance of What God calls US to, and setting an example that its OK, failing to admonish the sinner.
A good question to ask is, is it a greater sin to scare people by telling them they will go to Hell for doing such, or is it a greater sin to look on and see others committing sin, and say nothing, in turn, Condoning their sin by saying nothing?
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zro_x
Guest
@ marc anthony
you aren’t completely separate from god in hell. God is present in hell in the minimum ammount necessary to keep hell and the souls and fallen angels there in existence.
@ Sophion
Yes you do. You just don’t realize it. In hell you would be stripped of most of almost all of the expeience of god that you currently have and take for granted.
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sophion
Guest
if you dont realize it, you dont really experience it.
hey what is that “experience of god” anyway? can you describe it?
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zro_x
Guest
the more you experience god, the more joyous you are. If you weren’t experiencing him at all, you wouldn’t exist. if you were experiencing him minimally, as in hell, you would be suffering gravely.if you dont realize it, you dont really experience it.
hey what is that “experience of god” anyway? can you describe it?
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Trurl
Guest
A very boring and pitiful attempt to escape your predicament. You know what, as soon as you can prove that there is NO fire-breathing, seven headed dragon in you basement, I will present the proof of God’s nonexistence.
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Trurl
Guest
According to the church, at the moment of death the judgment is administered, and the result is hell. If you die with ONE unrepented mortal sin, then “no more Mr. Guy” - you are punished forever.
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zro_x
Guest
True. but don’t forget that god has the power to choose when you die, and he wants you to die in a state of grace.
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ApologiaSophia
Guest
These are very interesting and insightful thoughts James. I think there are just a few things that concern me with this position.
…everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; (Joel 2:32a NIV)
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” But not all the Israelites responded to the good news. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?” Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.(Romans 10:14-17 NIV)
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whomsoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16
…without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. (Hebrews 11:6 NIV)
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, (I Cor. 15:1-4)
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, (Romans 5:1)
If the view of C. S. Lewis is right, than that’s great, but I do not think it is true. I have know people to be led to Christ through dreams, visions, a other religions, but they were still ultimately led to faith in Christ.
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vames
Guest
Then are we to suppose that no person who had lead a good Catholic life is left to die in mortal sin, so there are no cases when good people end up in hell because of a single sin that they didn’t have the chance to repent for before dying?
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JRKH
Guest
Fair enough…but please consider a couple of more things…
What is the name of the Lord that Joel refers to here? And correct me if I’m wrong here but did not the peoples of Joel’s time refuse to utter the name of the Lord, calling out simply “Lord” instead of His name “I AM who AM”?
So - if none of the people will call on the name of the Lord, how can they be saved?
I don’t say this to be a smart alack but to make the point.
Surely one can respond that it is less about the specific syllables and more about the intent and I would agree with you.
The essence of the God that saves is Agape…and if one is touched by Agape, then why should we not say that God has touched that person.
And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent?
And without Love, faith is worthless (1 Cor 13:1-13)…for love is of God, and he who loves is born of God and knows God (1 John 4:7). So how can one say that he who loves (Agape) cannot be saved simply because he does not know the right syllables to speak? either Because they have not heard the Gospel or because the Gospel they did hear was poorly explained or delivered by one who lacks charity…For remember too that
Not all who cry Lord Lord will enter the kingdom, but only those who do the will of the Father who is in heaven.(Mt 7:21-29)
Amen - being led to Christ should be the goal for the road is certainly easier through having the guidance of the Church. But let us not forget how the story of the Rich young man ended…With Peter asking, “Then how can anyone be saved?” and Jesus replying, “For man it is not possible, but with God all things are possible”.
Peace
James
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PJM
Guest
BUT THEY DID KNOW THEY FAILED TO HELP THIER NEIGHBOR
Yea BUT! Charity has always been part of the Jewish Tradition and ‘Love of Neighbor as self” was made by Christ “the Second GREAT Commandment”
Then in Matt 7, those people who say “Lord, Lord” obviously want to join Jesus in Heaven, and, it seems, believe that they ‘knew him’. But they are also condemned.
Then in Luke, the story of Dives and Lazarus. The rich man wants to get out of Hell, to join God in Heaven- but he cannot, even though he repents what he has done.
My point is, this talk of choosing Hell is not really supported by Scripture. No one would actually choose eternal suffering, since suffering, by definition, is what you do not want.
It seems to me like the only sense in which saying people ‘choose’ Hell is true is in the sense we choose our actions here on earth, but then are bound to be rewarded or punished accordingly
Maybe we Catholics are not taking Hell seriously enough anymore.
Most assuredly multitudes of peoples, including many self proclaimed “catholics” either deny the reality of hell; or anticipate some “last-minute” miracle of salvation, regardless of how they have FREELY chosen to live their lives
For example in the 2008 Presidential Election; the NY Times reported that 54% of catholics voted in favor of the Democrat Platform and candidates. In 2012 that number decreased slightly [Pew report] to 50%. ALL of these people committed Mortal Sin by doing so. WHY? Because abortion is an “Intrinsic Evil.” MURDER, and everyone knows or ought to know this cannot be supported in any manner or form.
Your position on “Scripture” and Hell, is at best incomplete [likely by intent of the discussion]. There is but ONE “Infallible Rule” in right Bible understanding. NEVER-EVER CAN or MAY ONE PART of THE BIBLE VOID, INVALIDATE OR OVERRULE ANOTHER SEGMENT.
Deut. 30:19 “I call heaven and earth to witness this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing. Choose therefore life, that both thou and thy seed may live”
Eccl. 15:18 “Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him”
1 John 3:14 “We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not, abideth in death”
Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death. But the grace of God, life everlasting, in Christ Jesus our Lord”
The references to “crime and punishment” are too numerous to notate.
WHY HELL must exist is no mystery. God, in order to BE GOD must be “perfect.” Sin is among other things an “imperfection” that DEMANDS “Justice” by God.
Isa.43 Verses 7 and 21: “every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made." AND the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.”
God’s perfect plan for the Creation of humanity caused Him to make us “like himself.” Gen. 1:26-27. Actions HAVE consequences.
Of the many BILLIONS of created things ONLY humanity is able to rationalize and Love. That then become the cause for our being.
Like God humanity alone has a mind, intellect, and FREEWILL permanently attached to our Souls. These things are like God himself: Spiritual and Eternal. They can’t be killed or die.
Because our exclusive Spiritual gifts permit our freewill choice to love or hate God [the sum of all of our choices]. We MUST therefore either be rewarded or punished for our lives choices. WE CHOOSE HEVEN OR HELL.
God Bless,
Pat /PJM
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clem456
Guest
Red herring, quibbling over whether or not the person actually chose the punishment, rather than just choosing the offense. I believe the intent of the post was as follows:EXACTLY.
some people dont want to see that fact because there is no other way to justify hell.
hell is incompatible with the idea of a loving god. so it must be that its those going there who wants it!!!
senseless.
by extension, one could say that the punishment is chosen, when in reality at the moment of decision, consequences are far from the mind.
We have discussed this several times haven’t we sophion?
The only way this makes sense is in the context of relationship. We cherish a relationship with a living Person, God, not a dead letter. Look around, people choose to destroy relationships all the time. They do it out of selfishness and pride, and oh yeah, they suffer consequences whether they intended it or not at the time of offense.
Do you believe a person’s capacity to love is so fragile as to depend solely on the faithfulness of the other partner? That’s a very pessimistic point of view.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Hey, do you know what unrepented mortal sin IS?
And tell me, if you exist forever once you’re dead, and you never repent your sin, aren’t you still sinning? So it’s not like the sin is over and done with. It’s going on forever. That is why the CONSEQUENCES (a better term than punishment) go on forever too.
Let me reacquaint you with the idea of unrepented mortal sin at death.
Mortal sin, in order to be mortal, must involve three things; GRAVE MATTER. FULL KNOWLEDGE. FULL CONSENT OF THE WILL.
So at the time of death you are facing God with a mortal sin on your soul. Let’s say you’re a man and your mortal sin is committing adultery with, oh let’s say, an incredibly beautiful woman. And you’re like, “It was so worth it”.
You KNEW it was gravely wrong. After all, you had a wife and children and you had promised to be faithful. You knew it and you said, "Too bad, I want the sex. It is more important to me to have sex with this woman than it is to carry out the solemn vows I took. It is more important to me to have the sex and not only to put myself in mortal sin, but this woman as well. You absolutely knew it was wrong. And in fact, you would have condemned the behavior if somebody else had done it.
You absolutely were not in any way compelled to have the sex. Your wife was a wonderful, beautiful woman herself. You had a great marriage. You ‘loved’ your wife before and during and after the adultery.
You were not in a position at any point where you would be pressured to have sex. You weren’t drunk or high. There were no mitigating circumstances whatever. You never had adultery before and you didn’t after. And yet you STILL didn’t repent the sin.
NOW: Looking God RIGHT IN THE EYE, you tell Him, “Look buddy, I did it, I don’t care, I’ll never regret it no matter how wrong it was.”. . .
And you never do. So tell me what the justice is for this eternal choice to spit in God’s eye and choose mortal sin. . .and then tell me what God can do to ‘save’ somebody who doesn’t want, EVER, to BE saved. . .
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Qoeleth
Guest
Do you believe that sins can be repented after death? I thought (but could be wrong) that the chance of repentence ceases with death.
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JRKH
Guest
The issue with so many people is that they seem to want to be saved…on their terms…not on God’s terms.
Peace
James
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zro_x
Guest
The idea is that, after death, people who go to hell never want repentance
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Qoeleth
Guest
But surely, imagine a person has lead a life of sin, not really believing in Heaven and Hell. Then, he wakes up dead, and sees it is all real. Surely, everyone would repent then, at least for fear of the eternal torments, and because they would know for sure that Divine Law was actually from God, and not simply a man-made convention.
In life, many people do not see these things clearly.
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zro_x
Guest
not necessarily. Those who die in a state of mortal sin actually prefer an eternity without god to an eternity with him. They see him as a tormentor and oppressor of their freedom.
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Qoeleth
Guest
I genuinely cannot imagine such a person.
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