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ConstantineTG
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Are Lutherans still well shepherded? Because Anglicans have gone every which way.
Who settles disagreements for non-Catholics?
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ConstantineTG
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But at the top, is it still strong? I mean, if you look at the lay Catholics, we’re in as every bit scattered. But at least our leadership is staying strong with the teachings trying to get everyone in-line. But its like herding cats.We have those who have strayed from the confessions.
Jon
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Nine_Two
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The Anglicans have suffered from weak leadership that has refused to act on disputes. The organization for dealing with them was there, they just didn’t use it.
By episcopal I meant any church which has a system of governance by bishops or something similar.
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Nine_Two
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Even in the Catholic Church there seems to be a growing reluctance on the part of the heirarchy to deal with those who step out of line. Compare to Pius X-XII who dedicated their lives to keep the Church in line following the example of Pius IX (who was initially reluctant but eventually got it together).
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Sixpence
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Christianity can be a democratic society (in a certain sense of the word) if that’s what we decide to make it. And just as it was with kings and emperors who claimed a divine initiative and authority for their position of power, the question of whether they’re right or not becomes something of a moot point once that position is either done away with or its role and influence is dramatically curtailed. I believe that the lion’s share of what influencea Christianity as a whole should come from a place that is more democratic and less a monarchy. I also believe the Magisterial claims to divine authority have no basis in reality, and this is based on the same things that lead me to believe James I and Louis the XIV did not make claims that were based in reality. I ask myself, though, what if I’m wrong about James and Louis? It’s hard to imagine, but I can’t really say what would come of it. Neither can I really say what the cost would be if I was wrong about Magisterial authority, or about the absolute authority of the Catholic monarch. If things were changed to something more conciliar, or if it did become more democratic and lay-oriented, I could certainly see all kinds of benefit. I can’t discern any appreciable cost, though, in the event that I’m wrong. I don’t believe I am, but even if I am, I don’t think it matters very much on this one. This is not based on a general scorn for what is truth, by the way. It’s bases on the idea that all rulers of all types ultimately are able to exercise power only at the eill of the people. Whether that will is coerced or not is a different story, but the main idea is that your leaders work for you in the same sense that a retail storevworks for its customers. No matter how powerful you think you are, and no matter where you tgink you get tour authority from, you can only do as much with it as other people allow you to and it effectively goes away if they say it goes away.
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Dangerzone
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The short answer is you don’t. You simply go church shopping until you find one that suits you.
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AbideWithMe
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To Dangerzone and JimDandy----
Both of you are Catholic, and this thread is about non-Catholics, so why not let the non-Catholics here answer the question themselves? When I have questions about Catholicism, I don’t seek answers from former Catholics or non-Catholics, I ask Catholics. I don’t mean to stifle or offend you, but…you know the golden rule, and you probably would prefer that a non-Catholic with a question about Catholicism would be answered by Catholics.
Peace
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Jim_Dandy
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Yes, I am a former Southern Baptist. And agnostic. And atheist. I do know this.
I also know my post is accurate. Reference: World Christian Encyclopedia; Newsweek, “The Changing Face of the Church,” April 16, 2001. Christianity is a world religion. You should know this, FabiusMaximus.
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Jim_Dandy
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Ummm, this is a Catholic forum. And the OP is a Catholic. And I used to be a Protestant. And there are Catholics other than myself, and Orthodox, and at least one Jew who have contributed their comments… This isn’t your thread. So pardon me if I’m totally confused by your post. Could you explain your request, please?
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Dangerzone
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Agreed.
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Dangerzone
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Here’s the problem. There are really only two Christian churches, 1:Orthodox and Catholics (who have valid sacraments), and 2:The thousands of protestant churches which do not (other than marriage and baptism). These sacraments were handed down from Christ Himself through the apostles ( Magisterium), to this very day.
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ebonykawai
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I believe in and practice to the best of my ability: peace, loving kindness, and compassion.
It’s not rocket science.
It’s not rocket science.
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Nine_Two
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But we Orthodox don’t place stock in your Magisterium any more than the Protestants. How does that reconcile to this belief?
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AbideWithMe
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Jim Dandy----
When I have a question about Catholicism, I don’t seek answers from non-Catholics, or people who used to be Catholic. I want to let Catholics speak for themselves to get the most accurate information about Catholicism. It’s a matter of both wanting accuracy and giving respect to Catholics that makes me desire answers straight from the horse’s mouth. I would imagine that if a non-Catholic has questions about Catholicism, most Catholics believe that a Catholic is the best person to answer the question. Would you, Jim, agree with this?
If a Catholic (such as the OP) has a question about non-Catholic religious practice, who can better answer the question----a non-Catholic or a Catholic? As you noted, there are answers from a Lutheran, Methodist, Evangelical, Orthodox Christian, and a Reform Jew on this thread. There are people here on this non-Catholic religions sub-forum who are all able and willing to give an answer about their own religion when a question about it is asked by a Catholic. So I’m sincerely puzzled as to why you felt you, a Catholic, need to answer a question about non-Catholics. It’s not like there are no non-Catholics here to answer—I think it’s great that CAF provides a place for Catholics and others of whatever religion to ask questions of each other.
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Dangerzone
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I disagree. Orthodox and Catholics both have valid holy orders and and apostolic succession,as well as sacraments, and both agree that this is so. JPII even called us “two lungs of the same body.”
I’m not well schooled on the schism, but from what I understand, the differences are much more a matter of who has the legitimate claim to the Holy See, and perhaps some political issues rather than matters of doctrine. Of course, I could be wrong.
I’ve been to an Orthodox mass (or service)? I’m not sure of the correct terminology. But it was beautiful.
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AbideWithMe
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Jim Dandy—
Regarding my posts to you, I know it can be hard to “read” someone’s intentions on the internet without body language and tone of voice as guides, so I’ll state plainly that it’s not my intention to stifle you or be snarky.
Regarding my posts to you, I know it can be hard to “read” someone’s intentions on the internet without body language and tone of voice as guides, so I’ll state plainly that it’s not my intention to stifle you or be snarky.
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Jim_Dandy
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And I’m sincerely puzzled as to why you singled out Dangerzone and me as the objects of your request when there are others who are not Protestant who have also contributed to this thread, as I noted and you have acknowledged. Why have you not asked all of us to take a hike? No offense intended, but you’ve made a strange request, especially since this is not your thread, don’t you think? As a former Protestant, I’m well-qualified to comment, according to your rules.
Peace be with you.
P.S. You can skip any posts you don’t want to read, you know.
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Sixpence
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If you’re still confused, I can boil it down to just a few words. When participating in inter-faith discussions, it is important that you know your place in any given situation. If you’re confused as to what your place is, imagine if the shoe is on the other foot and proceed to do unto others.
In this specific scenario, it is not your place to generalize about why and how Protestants do what they do. I know you were a Protestant once, but you aren’t anymore. So I’m going to tell you exactly what you would say about any given ex-Catholic. You were obviously not very well-catechized in your former faith, and if catechesis is not applicable, the main take-away is that you were a defective “whatever” and that is clearly why you are now an ex-whatever.
That did get right to the point, but I hope it’s sufficiently clear. We may have a bit of a misunderstanding about what your place is, so let me clear this up one last time. If you are under the impression that it’s your place to speak on behalf of Protestants, that is not your place. Imagine how much respect you would have for an ex-Catholic forum full of ex-Catholic sources who nevertheless believe it is their place to speak on behalf of Catholics. Ooooo, that’s cringe-worthy, right? Well, that’s you. That’s what you are- someone who doesn’t know his place, and someone who doesn’t know what it does to his overall credibility when he persists in ignorance of his situation. The only question I have is this- are we looking at vincible ignorance, or is it invincible? I surely hope that it is vincible.
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benjohnson
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I think it’s fair to say that Lutherans are doing ok - but it’s not because the top is strong, it’s because the membership is strong.
For example, members generally elect the church council, who then appoint a call committee to hire a pastor, then the membership affirms/denys the candidate. One would think this would be a horrible way to run a church if you’re used to the Catholic model - but so far it seems to work.
Keep in mind, the ‘Synods’ are also flexible - many stronger ELCA churches are leaving that synod and going to other synods. This is possible because each church owns it’s own land, and hires it’s own pastor.
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