Who Should Be The Criminal?

[Starwynd]

In the case of an abortion, who should be considered the criminal?

The doctor or the woman?

And should the woman go to a friend to help her pay or obtain an abortion, should that friend be held criminally liable as well?

 

[kage_ar]

When there is a purchase of heroin, who should be the criminal - the drug dealer or the user?

When abortion becomes illegal, the demand for abortion will plummet. Most people do not break the law. The number of people seeking abortions will be those who are willing to break the law.

Doctors or nurses will want to obey the law and continue to be able to practie medicine. Only “outlaw” medical personell will be willing to break the law.

Those who break the law will be prosecuted, those who perform the abortion would suffer the strongest penalty. Those who seek an abortion would likely be treated like drug users now, requred to attend counseling, public service, etc. Those who assist would also face the law, just like those who assist in committing other crimes.

 

[survive]

With abortion, as with using hard drugs and drunk driving, I believe in a three-warning system; the user/driver/postabortive mother should first get a warning and have to see a video of the reality of what s/he has done (an abortion in action, the face of an OD’d addict and the mourning family, the rescue workers pulling a mangled body from a car, e.g.), the first time, and answer a quick quiz on the law and the facts of the action.
The second time, the driver/user/mother of an aborted child should have to pay a fine and perform community service. If the defendant is injured during the crime itself, this shall count toward the penalty and may even cancel it altogether.
The third time, they do time. A drug user who has seen the footage, had two opportunities to ask for help, and done it again, needs a stronger message, as with the others.
If any of these people asks for help – overcoming addiction, escaping a bad relationship that led to the crime, etc. – there should be some real help available.
The third offense should bring Class C Misdemeanor time, the fourth, Class B Misdemeanor time, and so on. Anyone who has had eight abortions despite available education and help is showing a serious disregard for the lives of others and is a felon IMO. Of course if someone is making her do this or she is mentally impaired that would be a very different story, as with the addict or driver.
The abortionist knows better; he has been to medical school, he has heard the little hearts beat and seen them writhe and fight the tools, and he has wrenched those legs off and counted them allw hile telling the mother, who can’t see what’s happening, that he’s removing an unconscious mass of undifferentiated cells.

 

[Trishie]

1. Both are guilty if both freely agree to murder the child.
2. Yes, because the other person becomes complicit in the murder.

 

[joseph_virgen]

believe it or not there are some cities where abortions are not carried out. where righteousness glows brightly.

in cities where abortion is carried out everybody, including those of the faith carry with them the blood of the innocent, as they have allowed such an industry to flourish.

we must stop blaming others for our shortcomings and look ithe mirror and ask ourselves: what did i do today to stop the dismembering of babies?

 

[JustWar]

Look at it this way. If a man hires someone to kill his wife, who is the real murderer? The man getting paid to do a ‘job’ or the man who ordered the murder but didn’t actually pull the trigger? If you say the man that pulled the trigger is the murderer than why do we hate Hitler so much or Stalin? They never pulled the trigger yet ordered millions to death. Also our own soldiers that are just doing their ‘jobs’ by dropping bombs and shooting other people. We don’t hold them accountable as murderers when they get back from combat because we know they were just following orders. I say it is the women who is the true murderer here, a thousand times more so than the ‘doctor’ just getting money for doing a job. Until the Catholic church recognizes that its own female members kill 30% or 300,000 abortions a year, nothing will change.

 

[rick43235]

Look at it this way. If a man hires someone to kill his wife, who is the real murderer? The man getting paid to do a ‘job’ or the man who ordered the murder but didn’t actually pull the trigger? If you say the man that pulled the trigger is the murderer than why do we hate Hitler so much or Stalin? They never pulled the trigger yet ordered millions to death. **Also our own soldiers that are just doing their ‘jobs’ by dropping bombs and shooting other people. We don’t hold them accountable as murderers when they get back from combat because we know they were just following orders. ** I say it is the women who is the true murderer here, a thousand times more so than the ‘doctor’ just getting money for doing a job. Until the Catholic church recognizes that its own female members kill 30% or 300,000 abortions a year, nothing will change.

Huh???

 

[Gamera]

In the case of an abortion, who should be considered the criminal?

The doctor or the woman?

And should the woman go to a friend to help her pay or obtain an abortion, should that friend be held criminally liable as well?

1). Both.

2). The same principles of accomplice liability that apply to any other crime should apply. A person must share ther requisite mental state and actively assist in the commission of the crime in order to face accomplice liability.

 

[Zooey]

When there is a purchase of heroin, who should be the criminal - the drug dealer or the user?

When abortion becomes illegal, the demand for abortion will plummet. Most people do not break the law. The number of people seeking abortions will be those who are willing to break the law.

Doctors or nurses will want to obey the law and continue to be able to practie medicine. Only “outlaw” medical personell will be willing to break the law.

Those who break the law will be prosecuted, those who perform the abortion would suffer the strongest penalty. Those who seek an abortion would likely be treated like drug users now, requred to attend counseling, public service, etc. Those who assist would also face the law, just like those who assist in committing other crimes.

:sad_yes: What Kage_Ar said.

I am old enough to remember (& remember as an adult) the days before legalized abortion. Very, very few people were seeking out abortions, precisely because abortion was illegal.
Further more, let us not forget that there are women (and young girls) being dragged into abortion clinics protesting that they do not want to kill their babies…but, since the people who work in abortion clinics get paid for what they do–they abort the women anyway. These women & girls (so many are really :crying: just young girls) need serious counselling help; they need to get away from the husband/boyfriend/parents/whomever, who are the ones who really want the babies killed…Now, those guys, I think we need to prosecute. Big time.

 

[rwoehmke]

Until the Catholic church recognizes that its own female members kill 30% or 300,000 abortions a year, nothing will change.

So, already, procuring an abortion results in automatic excommunication. What more can the Church do? Bring back the inquisition with its instruments of torture?

 

[apromisemade]

In the case of an abortion, who should be considered the criminal?

The doctor or the woman?

And should the woman go to a friend to help her pay or obtain an abortion, should that friend be held criminally liable as well?

Hmmm… good question.

I suppose if it became illegal, stictly speaking, the doctor would be the one most at fault because he was the one who “pulled the trigger” so to speak. But the women, I suppose, could be charged as being sort and acomplice (did I spell that right?) as she was kind of the one who “drove the getaway car.”

A lame analogy, I know.

 

[survive]

The doctor is the one who has already seen and studied the children he is planning on murdering, sees the baby and decides where to begin pulling away the limbs, feels the resistance, proceeds anyway, and lays the parts out on a tray and continues, while perfectly awake, aware and mobile the whole time.
The mother generally has never been in an abortion mill before, has never seen the child or studied prenatal life, is anesthetized, immobile and unsure if it’s already started or not until it’s far too late, so I would usually grant her reduced culpability.
In addition, the doctor is doing what he is doing professionally, choosing that occupation out of all the world can offer, going home to a fine lifestyle paid for by the children who will never have a funeral. This should absolutely horrify anyone. Yet he parks his late-model car in front of a nice restaurant and escorts a lady inside and people address him as “sir” and respect him. He is treated, because of money, as if his comfort is an urgent concern of the people around him when he goes out, I assume.
The mother might have been broken down by pressure from everyone she knows, lied to, and threatened. She is the one who goes home to a dingy apartment to bleed in the dark by herself. She is the one who spends her life wondering what she would have named her child.
I think the doctor deserves far more punishment, because he is the one who probably knows better, he is freer to walk away before it’s too late, and he is rewarded financially for his deed, rather than already paying for it physically and emotionally as the mother is doing.

 

[marietta]

The woman receiving an abortion in the first 17 weeks or so is not placed under general anesthesia but may receive an intravenous drip of the anxiety-reducing muscle relaxant Versed or another calming drug. In most cases the woman is not completely immobile.

“She is the one who goes home to a dingy apartment to bleed in the dark by herself.” Where does this caricature come from? What’s this called, hyperbole??

Just sayin’.

marietta

 

[jmcrae]

In the case of an abortion, who should be considered the criminal?

The doctor or the woman?

The doctor, since he is the one who profits from the abortion. The majority of women who abort report that they felt pressured into having an abortion, for financial and emotional reasons.

And should the woman go to a friend to help her pay or obtain an abortion, should that friend be held criminally liable as well?

Yes, along with anyone who promoted or suggested an abortion to the woman as a way of dealing with emotional and/or financial stress.

The woman should go for counselling, where she learns about the dignity of the human person, learns practical steps to allow her to stand up fearlessly for herself and for her children, and learns to become emotionally and financially independent (or at least not have all her eggs in one basket), so that she can never be bullied into killing her own child, again, out of fear of financial/emotional consequences.

 

[neat62]

In the case of an abortion, who should be considered the criminal?

The doctor or the woman?

Both. The doctor, because he is actually doing the killing. The woman, because she sought him out to murder her baby.

And should the woman go to a friend to help her pay or obtain an abortion, should that friend be held criminally liable as well?

Yes. Enabeling.

 

[Drilling4Truth]

To be honest, I’m not for advocating punishment for women having abortions. It’s actually a volley hurled at the Pro-Life Movement that, “We want to send women to jail, and blah, blah, blah.”

I could stomach sending some abortionists to jail, not for performing abortions, but because they have been known to cover up sexual abuse of minor girls. By all means, lock them up and throw away the key. But, as with most things, if you outlaw a profession like that, there will always be the creepy med-student that sees glory and going to jail for a cause, even if it’s as horrible as abortion. The rebel with the MD after his name.

What’s happening in recent years is that the abortionist is becoming ostracized in the medical field. From the accounts I’ve read, most medical professionals go into the abortion industry because it’s a very simple procedure, compared to heart surgery, limb reattachment, brain surgery, etc. It’s also very lucrative financially. Well, why not remove one of those aspects. Taxing the abortion provider could definitely make an impact on the clinics profits. No profit, no abortion. I haven’t heard of any Planned Parenthood doctor that donates his/her time.

As far as how abortionists are viewed professionally, we can leave that up to the doctors and popular media. Notice today’s medical dramas on TV don’t occur in abortion clinics. It’s kind of like the major I ended up in while in college. NOBODY goes to college to major in my field. They just sort of end up there. Same with abortionists. Just let the stigma continue until it becomes completely unthinkable to lower one’s self professionally to go into the abortion business.

 

[survive]

The woman receiving an abortion in the first 17 weeks or so is not placed under general anesthesia but may receive an intravenous drip of the anxiety-reducing muscle relaxant Versed or another calming drug. In most cases the woman is not completely immobile.

“She is the one who goes home to a dingy apartment to bleed in the dark by herself.” Where does this caricature come from? What’s this called, hyperbole??

Just sayin’.

marietta

I had a 12-week abortion in 1991. It was legal. That didn’t make it safe. I was given no real information about what was going to happen to me or my twins. I was drivent to the “clinic” at daybreak, exhausted and bewildered, afraid to make any more waves by resisting. They gave me codeine first, and a muscle relaxant IIRC. After that I was as dazed as if I were under general anestesia, conscious in a way but not truly awake. The abortion was horrific. Legal, funded, and brutal. I felt death rush into my veins. It shocked me. Until that I’d felt little. I went home to bleed for three months in a dingy apartment alone. Nos terotypes, just an experience I share with countless women and girls (I distinguish between the two) in my circle of friends and acquaintances.

 

[Kat876]

Neither shall be considered a criminal, as the act is legal.

 

[marietta]

survive:

I had a 13.5 week abortion June 8, 1971. This was before Roe v. Wade.

I didn’t know what was going to happen, either; in those days, young women barely knew anything about birth control or abortions. When I had my urine test done I needed to refrigerate the sample until the pregnancy test could be performed hours later; so I stashed the jar of urine in the ice chest in a bar where I was working, right next to the long necks.

I was driven by a dear friend to the medical facility, 2 1/2 hours away from my home, where I filled out paperwork, was given a 10 mg. Valium and ten minutes later was in the stirrups. Although I thought I was going to vomit on the table, I found it to be less uncomfortable than a tattoo. I was released about an hour later. A friend drove me to her home in Northern Virginia where I recuperated for seven days. I then returned to my home, with no plumbing, no heating and only a spring house, and I was back at work within the week.

I share my story with girls and women, too. Without interjecting the element of judgment in it, I describe my experience and I tell them that the most important thing that they can do is to love and respect themselves. No horror, no drama, no cheap shots. It’s not my place to recommend any behavior to any girl or woman who is pregnant and looking at options. I explain what happened to me and give them information or steer them in a reputable direction for information they are seeking. And if they are not pregnant, I do let them know that it is within their rights to “make waves by resisting” - in fact, not only is that a woman’s birthright, it is her duty. If she will not do it, then who?

In an earlier post, you say, “The mother might have been broken down by pressure from everyone she knows, lied to, and threatened. She is the one who goes home to a dingy apartment to bleed in the dark by herself. She is the one who spends her life wondering what she would have named her child.
I think the doctor deserves far more punishment, because he is the one who probably knows better, he is freer to walk away before it’s too late, and he is rewarded financially for his deed, rather than already paying for it physically and emotionally as the mother is doing.”

I believe the doctor is only equally free to walk away from the deal, that he does not enjoy more freedom than the patient. He is paid for medical services, not “rewarded”, and don’t doubt that some of these doctors who perform terminations do have emotional repercussions before, during or after their participation. This in no way compares with the patient’s suffering, if she is, indeed, suffering. I say this because I did not suffer. I had regrets, I have regrets, but what’s done is done. God has seen fit to keep me here to try to do better. And so I try.

We each have individual experiences that shape us. By the time I hit the stirrups I had already been hardened by sexual assault, alcoholism and drug use. I left home at 18 and six months later was raped in a Catholic Church parking lot by a guy who offered to give me a ride to Mass. Back then it was important to me to go to Mass every Sunday. That was then.

Two tales, two destinations. I pray that God will watch over you and give you the strength to gain and keep perspective on your experiences. I pray that you can live in this moment and bathe in the wonder of God’s universe, finding safety and contentment in the sunlight of His spirit. I pray that the sadness of your loss will come to be outweighed by a pointed awareness that the soul or souls lost on that mournful day in 1991 are with you still, and draw you close to ease your pain, and envelop you with forgiveness and a longing to meet your spirit one day down the road.

This, too, is how I pray for myself and for every woman who has chosen abortion.

marietta

 

[Drilling4Truth]

Neither shall be considered a criminal, as the act is legal.

Slavery was once legal, defended by the Supreme Court itself.

But, I will grant you this, abortion may never become illegal. Which is fine. We can legislate it out of existence without the courts. Which is why I vote Pro-Life, and so does Norma McCorvey, aka “Roe”.